[Build Log] Mini-ITX PC - Middle School

[DonkeyOatie]

This post is from the new computer. I've spent the weekend moving things over.

I am very disappointed at the number of old games which will not run well or properly on the computer, to the point where I'm thinking of building a legacy Windows 7 machine or getting a cheap laptop with windows 7.

I have discovered from my benchmarks that the HD 4400 iGPU is better than my existing older computer by a factor of about 2. so a very cheap i3 system should do the business. Things that do not run are:

Dark Omen
Rites of War
Mechcommander
Mechcommander 2
MechWarrior 4: Vengeance
MechWarrior 4: Black Knight
MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries
KOTOR I
KOTOR II

each one of these takes quite a while to load and debug, before giving up.

Configuration is also slow work as I split the application and data, with the applications on the SSD and the data on the HDD. It would have been easier to use a 512Gb SSD. The 256Gb SSD is already 60% full and I don't want to go over 80%.

I have yet to start on the D&D games like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale

 

[zeyuanfu]

I do not know any of these games. Will games like BF4 run?

 

[DonkeyOatie]

Who cares (apart from you of course) ? I don't play it and neither does my wife. The system has a 1.13Ghz GTX 750ti. I don't think that's BF4 material (campaign at usable speed and top graphics)

Some of those games from from the 90's. They ran well on Windows 95

 

[zeyuanfu]

Well, people who buy the Minecraft machine might have a spare copy of BF4 at home

 

[tiny voices]

No An i3 with the iGPU will not run bf4 at low settings at 1080p.

 

[zeyuanfu]

Even without any AA or stuff like that?

 

[tiny voices]

Might get like 30fps MAYBE. Not enjoyable.

 

[zeyuanfu]

It's still playable

 

[tiny voices]

Honestly, no I would not call barely 30fps with spikes and drops at LOW settings playable.

 

[zeyuanfu]

It's still not too bad for graphics that come with a 100$ CPU.

 

[DonkeyOatie]

That may be, but that's also the iGPU on my i5. The one on an i3 may be less good due to the CPU. Even so it may be a good place to test the MinceCraft machine.

 

[Novuake]

That may be, but that's also the iGPU on my i5. The one on an i3 may be less good due to the CPU. Even so it may be a good place to test the MinceCraft machine.

Not quite how it works, iGPUs is a completely different portion of CPU die, it is not dependent on CPU-"class" at all.

HD4400 graphics is HD4400 graphics and will perform the same on an I7 or an I3.
Although RAM speed does have an influence.

As for Battlefield on an iGPU, nope nope and NOPE, MAYBE at a super low resolution it MIGHT be playable at lowest settings and even then with VERY little FPS, but nothing like 1600*900 and up.


Wait,

@zeyuanfu, you do not know, KOTOR I and 2? Knights of the Old Republic? Really?

 

[KalTorak]

Dark Omen, man that takes me back! I never could complete that final level 🙁

Have you tried that with compatibility mode enabled in properties?

I had problems trying to run BG 1, 2 and Icewind Dale previously, I then got them from GOG who have adapted them to run on new systems, might be worth looking at?

 

[DonkeyOatie]

Dark Omen, man that takes me back! I never could complete that final level 🙁

Have you tried that with compatibility mode enabled in properties?

I had problems trying to run BG 1, 2 and Icewind Dale previously, I then got them from GOG who have adapted them to run on new systems, might be worth looking at?

That last level of Dark Omen is a bear, but I win it nearly all the time, and without losing a unit, and once or twice, without losing anything. It all depends on the spells that I have. It took a lot to get it running on Vista. There's a missing .dll it needs or cannot find. GOG? I'll check that out.

Will that help with my Steam games that have problems?

 

[zeyuanfu]

Wait,

@zeyuanfu, you do not know, KOTOR I and 2? Knights of the Old Republic? Really?

I do not. The only games I know of are ones released after BF3, but even then, my memory might be a bit rusty.

 

[KalTorak]

GOG = Good Old Games

http://www.gog.com/

Looks like they dont have Dark Omen though, which is a shame 🙁

If you like BG and Icewind then if you havent already played it, get Planescape Torment. That game had me hooked for so long.

 

[DonkeyOatie]

GOG = Good Old Games

http://www.gog.com/

Looks like they dont have Dark Omen though, which is a shame 🙁

If you like BG and Icewind then if you havent already played it, get Planescape Torment. That game had me hooked for so long.

Thanks. I have that Nameless One.

I'm finding I've lost my Mass Effect 1 and 2 DLC.. My Cerberus key was used (by me on my old machine and I cannot transfer) and my EA account is linked to an old e-mail address that is no longer active (in a different part of the country). So I can't do anything and none of my save games can be loaded.

Dark Omen has it's own site. I will check there. I also play with modded armies. My Vampire Counts of Sylvania army is my favorite.

 

[KalTorak]

If I could find my Dark Omen CD, which there is no chance of, I would look at picking that mod up, sounds sweet.

Never could get on with the ME series, no idea why, im a big FPS fan, and a huge RPG fan, but the only one I played that mixes them both and I enjoy is Fallout3/NV

 

[DonkeyOatie]

I have yet to put my Fallout collection on. I have 1, 2 and Tactics. Never got round to 3.

In Dark Omen, who would have a better reason to oppose Nagash than the Vampire Counts?

I'm having to repurchase stuff, so I'm getting it on Steam.

 

[DonkeyOatie]

MineCraft Machine configurator. It will NOT be called a MineCraft Machine. That's my working name. I'm past that concept now, except at the lowest levels. Any ideas for a concept name will be considered.


These are the choices that I will give to my students when configuring their systems. For each part they will have three choices BUDGET, STANDARD, and PREMIUM and that is the order of the parts in each section. There are some exclusions and prerequisites. They are providing their own keyboard, mouse, and monitor. I'm negotiating with Microsoft for OS prices.

CPU
i3 4150
i5 4460
i7 4790 (K?) Not Basic Motherboard

Motherboard
MSI H81M-P33
ASRock H97 Pro4
ASRock Fatal1ty Z97X

RAM
1 x 4 GB
2 x 4 GB
2 x 8 GB

Storage
1 Tb, 7200rpm, 64Mb cache
120+Gb SSD, 1 Tb, 7200rpm, 64Mb cache
240+Gb SSD 1 Tb, 7200rpm, 64Mb cache

GPU
iGPU
GTX 750ti (no PCIe needed)
GTX 970 Needs Premium PSU

PSU
Antec BP 350
Antec VP 450
EVGA 110-B2 750 (at the moment) Cheapest best PSU with two PCIe 6 connectors 500W+

Case (with USB 3.0 on front)
Azza SIRIUS (best $25 case)
Thermaltake Commander MS1 (best $35 case)
Antec GX500 (best $50 case)

All BUDGET. Productivity, NOT gaming.
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i3-4150 3.5GHz Dual-Core Processor ($97.27 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: MSI H81M-P33 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($43.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws Series 4GB (1 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($36.98 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($49.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Azza SIRIUS ATX Mid Tower Case ($24.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: Antec Basiq 350W ATX Power Supply ($24.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $278.21
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 19:43 EST-0500

All STANDARD
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($179.98 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: ASRock H97 PRO4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($72.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($75.98 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Crucial MX100 128GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($61.98 @ OutletPC)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($49.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 750 Ti 2GB Superclocked Video Card ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Thermaltake Commander MS-I ID ATX Mid Tower Case ($34.99 @ Micro Center)
Power Supply: Antec 450W ATX Power Supply ($19.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $615.88
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 19:50 EST-0500

All PREMIUM (Overclockers, if any, can supply a cooler)
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($298.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock Fatal1ty Z97X Killer ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($114.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 Memory ($124.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($104.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($49.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($339.99 @ Newegg)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card (2-Way SLI) ($339.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Antec GX500 ATX Mid Tower Case ($42.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $1486.89
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-25 10:50 EST-0500

Old PREMIUM configuration referred to in posts.

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor ($307.27 @ TigerDirect)
Motherboard: ASRock Z97M Pro4 Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($90.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1333 Memory ($114.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial MX100 256GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($104.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($49.99 @ Amazon)
Video Card: EVGA GeForce GTX 970 4GB Superclocked ACX 2.0 Video Card ($329.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Antec GX500 ATX Mid Tower Case ($42.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: EVGA 750W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $1091.18
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 19:55 EST-0500

Combinations are possible, but I will discourage foolishness.
I will reserve the right to give 'free' improvements, so at the moment, the Basic system would get the Standard PSU (It's cheaper)
Comments or suggestions.

 

[zeyuanfu]

Pretty good, I'd say. I would avoid offering i7s to kids as the extra threads are certainly NOT needed for Minecraft
You could make the G3258 the budget choice, the 4150 the mid-range choice and offer the 4460 as the high-end choice.
For the low-end motherboard, I would get something like this:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Motherboard: Asus H81M-D PLUS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($44.49 @ Newegg)
Total: $44.49
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 22:22 EST-0500

The high-end Z97 board isn't the best out of all, you can get a Z97X Fatal1ty Killer for 114.99$ after rebate.
Here's a 240 GB SSD for 73.99$ after rebate:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Storage: PNY Optima 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($73.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $73.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 22:24 EST-0500

If you can, when the Corsair 200R goes on sale (like it went a few days ago), stock up and offer it as the mid- or high-end choice.

As for the GPU, there's a too big gap between the 750 Ti and the 970 IMO. You could offer something like a R9 280, which are around 164.99$ after rebates as a middle option.

Also, why use the Basiq when you can get the VP-450 cheaper? You could also try to get a students' discount as the machines are for students

Otherwise, great configurator!

 

[RazerZ]

I agree with zeyuanfu that the mid end build should have at least a R9 280. The SSD could be dropped to make this work.

For the PSU I would look into a XFX 550W Pro edition.

--

For the mid and high end build you could look into getting a cheaper Z87 motherboard and a matching CPU. Ex:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4440 3.1GHz Quad-Core Processor ($175.99 @ SuperBiiz)
Motherboard: Asus Z87-A (NFC Express Edition) ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($70.98 @ Newegg)
Memory: Avexir Core series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($59.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: XFX 550W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($37.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $344.95
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 22:55 EST-0500

Also the Z97 board you picked has the second lane running at x4 speed and crossfire would run at reduced performance. Sli would not work.

 

[zeyuanfu]

The above build is pretty good, but I would look into this kit of 64.99$ DDR3-2133/CL9 RAM:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-2133 Memory ($64.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $64.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-25 10:19 EST-0500

 

[DonkeyOatie]

Pretty good, I'd say. I would avoid offering i7s to kids as the extra threads are certainly NOT needed for Minecraft
You could make the G3258 the budget choice, the 4150 the mid-range choice and offer the 4460 as the high-end choice.
For the low-end motherboard, I would get something like this:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Motherboard: Asus H81M-D PLUS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($44.49 @ Newegg)
Total: $44.49
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 22:22 EST-0500

The high-end Z97 board isn't the best out of all, you can get a Z97X Fatal1ty Killer for 114.99$ after rebate.
Here's a 240 GB SSD for 73.99$ after rebate:
PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

Storage: PNY Optima 240GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($73.99 @ NCIX US)
Total: $73.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-12-24 22:24 EST-0500

If you can, when the Corsair 200R goes on sale (like it went a few days ago), stock up and offer it as the mid- or high-end choice.

As for the GPU, there's a too big gap between the 750 Ti and the 970 IMO. You could offer something like a R9 280, which are around 164.99$ after rebates as a middle option.

Also, why use the Basiq when you can get the VP-450 cheaper? You could also try to get a students' discount as the machines are for students

Otherwise, great configurator!

In what way is the H81 you selected superior to the one I selected?

I see RazerZs catch and will change the PREMIUM Z97 board.

In case I didn't make it clear, the configurations are based on non-discounted prices. I will always choose the cheapest best available at the time, but since I have to finance all the hardware out of my own pocket, I need to give specific products I can expect to break even on.

 

[DonkeyOatie]

Thanks for the input.

There are some students who want to do heavy video editing and rendering of animation. They will need i7 and 16Gb.

These are not all gamers to the max. I think that the GTX750ti is the best mid-range card between the iGPU and the 970. It will run in any of the systems, and it's an important upgrade for BUDGET users and it can use the 350W PSU. The STANDARD GPU must run in the BUDGET system.

It's easy to come up with individual improvements. I would rather that you propose a complete chart. I went through some of the ideas that you have before coming to my decisions. These are the general configurations available in my course. Students are free to buy extra or different parts.

Please give thought to the support, management, and inventory costs of too many diverse parts and general budget creep. I am competing wit that $350 course (crap hardware and software, but still)

As I said above, I will need to finance all the hardware out of my own pocket, recovering my investment when students buy it.

It think that using the configurator, students can put together a wide variety of systems capable of diverse applications, and superior to all or most pre-built systems both in cost and quality. They may not be ideal, but is there anything you would not want?

If you lived in Lower Ding Dong and your only shop within three days sled ride had only these parts available, could you make a good quality system to do anything sensible you might need at reasonable cost?? (Except for the CPU cooler)