Can I hook a UPS to a surge protector?

[pcdudedude]

Basically my surge protector us rated at over 4000 joules. But my UPS is only rated at 1000 joules. So would it be wise to connect the UPS directly to the surge protector?

 

[Rogue Leader]

Westom, what is your degree and when did your receive it? And when was the last time you worked in the field?

This is why I have no respect for anything you post. You do not know any of the basic electrical concepts. So you do what Donald Trump is currently doing - attack the person as proof that reality must be wrong.

Cited repeatedly are numbers and sources that do this stuff. We don't see this as much as we used to since most every venue we deal with now has proper earthing, and 'whole house' protection from manufacturers (previously listed) with integrity.

You should be asking to learn about the 'art' of protection rather than attack the messenger. A protector is only as effective as its single point earth ground. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always.

We have no respect for you because you completely ignore electrical concepts. You also completely ignore real life equipment that is proven to work, and proven to be what it says it is. And we are stupid for playing into your non stop idiocy and responding to you.

 

[westom]

We have no respect for you because you completely ignore electrical concepts. .

If replying as an adult, then relevant electrical concepts such as voltage source verses current sources were discussed. Concepts taught to first semester engineers. And quite relevant to this topic.

Many nasty posters do not even know these basic electrical concepts. Current causea damage? Where did that nonsense come from? 120 volt MOV protectors fail catastrophically when voltage approaches or exceeds 900 volts. A failure that all MOV manufacturers define as completely unacceptable. So why did the naive keep hyping about current? Why did the naive not know about 900 volts? Minimal technical knowledge means reading datasheets. To learn what protectors really do. An adult who is still a child attacks and insults the messsenger.

Here's where you can up your game to an adult level. Discuss voltage and current sources. Define why the concept is so relevant. Explain why current is the only reason for damage when datasheets demonstrate catastrophics failure at about 900 volts. IOW quote datasheet specs rather than post insults.

OP's 4000 joules UPS was doing nothing useful. As was also defined previously with specification naumbers. A useful reply would have said where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Defined without attacking an engineer who clearly exposed knowledge from scams and advertising. As if only current (not joules) defines all damage. Please.

 

[Saberus]

Westom, what is your degree and when did your receive it? And when was the last time you worked in the field?

This is why I have no respect for anything you post. You do not know any of the basic electrical concepts. So you do what Donald Trump is currently doing - attack the person as proof that reality must be wrong.

Cited repeatedly are numbers and sources that do this stuff. We don't see this as much as we used to since most every venue we deal with now has proper earthing, and 'whole house' protection from manufacturers (previously listed) with integrity.

You should be asking to learn about the 'art' of protection rather than attack the messenger. A protector is only as effective as its single point earth ground. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Always.

Asking you for your degree, the year it was earned, and when you last worked in the field makes me Donald Trump?

It's a simple question whose answer can lend your argument credit. Instead you dodge the answer and attack further.

I have asked you before where to learn the 'art' of protection. You only continued to mock and attack.

Answer the question.

 

[Rogue Leader]

We have no respect for you because you completely ignore electrical concepts. .

If replying as an adult, then relevant electrical concepts such as voltage source verses current sources were discussed. Concepts taught to first semester engineers. And quite relevant to this topic.

Many nasty posters do not even know these basic electrical concepts. Current causea damage? Where did that nonsense come from? 120 volt MOV protectors fail catastrophically when voltage approaches or exceeds 900 volts. A failure that all MOV manufacturers define as completely unacceptable. So why did the naive keep hyping about current? Why did the naive not know about 900 volts? Minimal technical knowledge means reading datasheets. To learn what protectors really do. An adult who is still a child attacks and insults the messsenger.

Here's where you can up your game to an adult level. Discuss voltage and current sources. Define why the concept is so relevant. Explain why current is the only reason for damage when datasheets demonstrate catastrophics failure at about 900 volts. IOW quote datasheet specs rather than post insults.

OP's 4000 joules UPS was doing nothing useful. As was also defined previously with specification naumbers. A useful reply would have said where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Defined without attacking an engineer who clearly exposed knowledge from scams and advertising. As if only current (not joules) defines all damage. Please.

I was going to reply, but whatever. This is going nowhere. You may be an engineer, but you are also wrong, so wrong.

 

[westom]

Westom, what is your degree and when did your receive it? And when was the last time you worked in the field?

Clearly you have no technical education. At best, only knowledge of an electrician. I doubt you even have that. My experience and education are irrelevant. Your's is. Because you keep posting myths and speculation that make no sense, are irrelevant to the topic, and well, you clearly have no grasp of the relationship between energy, current and voltage. You do not even know the difference between safety ground and earth ground .... which is essential to how surge protection (and lightning rods) work.

Anyone manipulated by sales droids will recommend plug-in protectors as you have. Foolishly believe a UPS does surge protection. It does not. Both require protection provided for about $1 per protected appliance using a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. As provided by (and demonstrated by application notes also provided by) those many other companies with integrity.

You do not post your education and industry experience because you have neither - as made obvious by the various technical claims and numbers in your replies.

Only answer relevant to everything you have posted is found in a bottom line question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? As well proven (ie in every telco switching center and every commercial broadcast station) by well over 100 years of experience and science, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That does not change no matter how many insults and irrelevant accusations are made.

You claimed a UPS protects from surges. Even manufacturer specification numbers say otherwise. You deny a well proven 50,000 amp protector costs about $1 per protected appliance - because you never did this stuff and did not even know what a 'whole house' protector was. Did not even know why the protector must be 50,000 amps - so that a direct lightning strike (ie 20,000 amps) does not damage it.

Even 200 volt square waves with spikes up to 270 volts is called a 'pure sine wave' UPS. Contrary to knowledge only from advertising and other subjective beliefs. The really 'pure sine wave' UPS you recommended costs on the order of $1000. You did not even know a 'dirtiest' UPS is sufficient (not destructive) to all electronics.

You also did not know that electronics routinely convert that 'pure sine wave' output into some of the 'dirtiest' power in the building. Then superior filters and regulators already inside every electronics convert that 'dirtiest' power into rock solid and well regulated low voltage DC. What then does that pure sine wave output do - when electronics routinely subvert it before converting that 'diretiest' power into 'cleanest' power? You also did not know electronics routinely convert incoming power into high voltage radio frequency spikes - no matter how clean or dirty that UPS output is.

You did not know a 'whole house' solution is for 99.5% to 99.9% of surges. Ignored spec numbers for plug-in protectors (ie OP's 4000 joules protector) that do not even claim to protect from typically destructive surges. Then claimed that so called 'pure sine wave' UPS somehow magically absorbs surges.

Due to insufficient electrical knowledge, you did not know energy defines current and voltage. Then insist only current and not voltage does damage. Current without voltage is zero joules - a surge that does not cause damage. You did not understand a relationship between volts, amps, joules, and time - all essential when discussing surge protection.

Well at least you did not insist that a short circuit would cause 120 volts to increase well above 330 volts. Short circuits create a near zero voltage. Why are you also not demanding Rogue Leader's education. Apparently his is even less than yours - as if a short circuit would cause 120 VAC to increase well above 330 volts. Somebody please give him a high school physics book,

If the OP has not properly earthed a 'whole house' protector, then his UPS and protector may even make appliance damage easier. In some cases, create a house fire. The 'whole house' protector is only a 'secondary' protection layer. Informed homeowners can learn from previous posts of the 'primary' protection layer and what every homeowner should inspect to further protect all household appliances.

Also mentioned is protection required to be on all incoming telephone, satellite dish, and cable wires. But again, protection is only as effective as its earth ground. Only a homeowner is responsible for that. It remains the OP's best answer. Best protection is also a least expensive solution. Especially since both his 4000 joule protector and UPS both need that protection.

Provided were sources of the best (and least expensive) solutioins. And of the many sources that have defined this stuff even over 100 years ago. You did not even know both cable and telephone already have best protection - provided for free. But then you only learned from advertising and hearsay - not from doing this stuff.

You did not even know a protector is only as effective as its earth ground - that the OP's solutions do not have and will not discuss. Honest would only harm profits.

 

[Rogue Leader]

Why am I replying to this.. I can't help myself apparently....

Well at least you did not insist that a short circuit would cause 120 volts to increase well above 330 volts. Short circuits create a near zero voltage. Why are you also not demanding Rogue Leader's education. Apparently his is even less than yours - as if a short circuit would cause 120 VAC to increase well above 330 volts. Somebody please give him a high school physics book,

You complete an utter idiot, a short circuit causes a surge in CURRENT. CURRENT IS MEASURED IN AMPS. AMPS ARE WHAT CAUSES DAMAGE.

https://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p616/safety/fatal_current.html

OHMS LAW jackass

V (voltage) = I (current) x R (resistance)

http://www.instructables.com/answers/Does-Voltage-Or-Current-Kill-Electronics/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_circuit

http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae470.cfm :

A short circuit is simply a low resistance connection between the two conductors supplying electrical power to any circuit. This results in excessive current flow in the power source through the 'short,' and may even cause the power source to be destroyed. If a fuse is in the supply circuit, it will do its job and blow out, opening the circuit and stopping the current flow.

Take a physics class yourself

This is a basic electrical concept. I don't care what you say you are or pretend to be. You have 0 clue what you are talking about.

 

[westom]

You complete an utter idiot, a short circuit causes a surge in CURRENT. CURRENT IS MEASURED IN AMPS. AMPS ARE WHAT CAUSES DAMAGE.

A short circuit creates near zero voltage. A large current times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage. Why does a circuit breaker (closer to a generator) trip? That same high current creates a high voltage inside the breaker (or fuse). High current times high voltage is high energy. So the breaker (or fuse) trips. Energy is required to have damage. A large current that creates near zero voltage creates near zero energy and near zero damage.

Difficult is to explain simple science to people mostly educated by hearsay and advertising. Same people also recommend a tiny (4000 joules) protector or UPS for surge protection. Because it was the first thing told.

Anyone knows a short circuit on 120 volt circuits does not create over 330 volts. Anyone can read numbers on a protector's box. That 330 volts means a protector circuit does nothing during a short circuit. Because a short circuit causes 120 volts to drop well below 120 volts. It's just not that hard when one learns numbers before knowing something. Same naive consumers also recommend that UPS or surge protector because advertising said to.

A shiort circuit does not cause 120 VAC to increase to well over 330 volts. One who did not learn this stuff also insists he is an expert. He demonstrates education levels found when a UPS or surge protector is recommended to protect appliances. He only knows what advertising has ordered him to believe.

Energy does the damage. The naive post insults so as to not learn science.

 

[Rogue Leader]

You complete an utter idiot, a short circuit causes a surge in CURRENT. CURRENT IS MEASURED IN AMPS. AMPS ARE WHAT CAUSES DAMAGE.

A short circuit creates near zero voltage. A large current times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No damage. Why does a circuit breaker (closer to a generator) trip? That same high current creates a high voltage inside the breaker (or fuse). High current times high voltage is high energy. So the breaker (or fuse) trips. Energy is required to have damage. A large current that creates near zero voltage creates near zero energy and near zero damage.

Difficult is to explain simple science to people mostly educated by hearsay and advertising. Same people also recommend a tiny (4000 joules) protector or UPS for surge protection. Because it was the first thing told.

Anyone knows a short circuit on 120 volt circuits does not create over 330 volts. Anyone can read numbers on a protector's box. That 330 volts means a protector circuit does nothing during a short circuit. Because a short circuit causes 120 volts to drop well below 120 volts. It's just not that hard when one learns numbers before knowing something. Same naive consumers also recommend that UPS or surge protector because advertising said to.

A shiort circuit does not cause 120 VAC to increase to well over 330 volts. One who did not learn this stuff also insists he is an expert. He demonstrates education levels found when a UPS or surge protector is recommended to protect appliances. He only knows what advertising has ordered him to believe.

Energy does the damage. The naive post insults so as to not learn science.

Learn to read

OHMS LAW

V (voltage) = I (current) x R (resistance)

Another way to put it is I = V / R.

In a perfect short circuit YES voltage is 0, however that is only part of the equation, because you're forgetting about the fact that a short doesn't just happen, there is a time factor as this does not happen instantaneously. When a short happens the resistance of the wire drops tremendously (eventually to 0), so the resistance drops while the voltage remains the same, causing the current to surge (simple math here, a number divided by an ever increasingly smaller number = a very big number which is your current), right up until the resistance becomes 0 and the circuit is shorted and there is no longer voltage. The CURRENT increases hence fuses and circuit breakers are measured in AMPS for when they blow, and voltages for what they are rated to run.

Using the same formula if the voltage shoots up (say in a lightning strike), the resistance remains the same but the voltage shoots up which causes the current to increase, again the same device (a fuse or circuit breaker) stops the CURRENT SPIKE.

The rest of the crap you say is hyperbole because you think there is some conspiracy by UPS manufacturers. I have a sine wave UPS, I can hook an oscilloscope to it right now and get perfect sine waves out of it. One of the units I have the SMART1000RM2U is used for sensitive equipment and was only $500. My $130 cyberpower sine wave unit produces the same power and can be hooked to an oscilloscope to show it. You can not believe it all you want. There are simulated sine wave units which do as you describe. And there are sine wave units like I have that you pay more for. BOTH have circuit breakers in them for a surge or a short to prevent damage. I can take a picture of the damn thing if you don't believe me. Both devices have chokes and MOVs so that minor spikes and surges are directed out to the ground line so that the device does not shut off unless it is overwhelmed in which case the fuse or circuit breaker pops.

I posted science. I posted proof. I posted how it works.

You don't read it.

I give up.

 

[ffg7]

westom is a spambot as he sounds like 1 so must be 1.

 

[Saberus]

westom is a spambot as he sounds like 1 so must be 1.

As much as I'm butting heads with him, I don't think he's a spambot.

 

[Rogue Leader]

westom is a spambot as he sounds like 1 so must be 1.

As much as I'm butting heads with him, I don't think he's a spambot.

I agree he is not a spambot, he is more of a troll than a spambot. However he truly believes what he is saying even if science properly stated contradicts it. I can't figure out if hes been doing it for a long time and is just confused, or he is only book smart and has no real world experience.

The worst part is nobody has disputed the importance of a properly wired home including a proper earth ground. He keeps going back to that, with his conspiracy theories about UPS and power strip manufacturers.

 

[westom]

The worst part is nobody has disputed the importance of a properly wired home including a proper earth ground.

Sigh. A home wired to meet all National Electrical code grounding requirements may also have insufficient earthing for surge protection. That was stated so many times previously with numbers and reasons why - that you ignore.

Using your reasoning, a motherboard ground is same as a water pipe ground, is same as a wall receptacle ground, is same as a floating ground inside a TV, is same as a chassis ground, is same as an analog ground inside an amplifier, is same as the ground in a breaker box, is same as the ground for a bathtub.. Then a lightning rod can be earthed to a computer's motherboard ground - using your reasoning.

All are electrically different. Only ground that matters for surge protection is a single point earth ground that must exceed code requirements. Often not understood by electricians only trained in human safety requirements.

Any grounds provided by a wall receptacle are not earth ground and obviously cannot provide surge protection. Denials and mockery do not change reality.

OP's 4000 joule protector does not even claim to protect from destructive surges for so many reasons. Including no earth ground connection. But that means learning how electricity works rather than constantly posting denials and accusations.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground - which is electrically different from all other above listed grounds.

No conspiracy. That UPS and 4000 joule protector do exactly what the manufacturer claims with numbers. Neither claim to protect from typically destructive surges. May even make surge damage easier. Only ignorant and naïve consumers would deny over 100 years of well proven science.

 

[jimmysmitty]

westom is a spambot as he sounds like 1 so must be 1.

As much as I'm butting heads with him, I don't think he's a spambot.

I agree he is not a spambot, he is more of a troll than a spambot. However he truly believes what he is saying even if science properly stated contradicts it. I can't figure out if hes been doing it for a long time and is just confused, or he is only book smart and has no real world experience.

The worst part is nobody has disputed the importance of a properly wired home including a proper earth ground. He keeps going back to that, with his conspiracy theories about UPS and power strip manufacturers.

You will not win. Everything you have been saying is basic working knowledge of electricity and how it works, at least that's what teachers in college who had been in the semiconductor and electronics field for 30 or so years taught us, and every book states.

He will keep going, and going and going. He will outlast the Energizer Bunny. All you can do is be assured that you actually know with empirical evidence that you are correct.

 

[westom]

Empirical evidence (observation without first learning how things work) is why junk science is alive and well. We routinely make surge damage irrelevant as our predecessors did over 100 years ago. No protector (or UPS) does protection. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That means a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to earth. Even a bogus UPS recommendation has no such connection AND claims no protection from potentially destructive types of surges.

Denials are subjective and demeaning. Denials comes from people who never bothered to first learn how and why protection works. An informed reply would include spec numbers - not personal insults. But then many adults would insult and use classic junk science reasoning rather than learn from over 100 years of well proven science. That means admitting to being scammed by advertising, hearsay, and wild speculation.

Some simple concepts apply - as understood even 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.