News China's First 28nm-Capable Scanner to Be Delivered by End of 2023

[Admin]

China expects the first 28nm capable domestically produced scanner to be delivered before the end of the year. SMEE's SSA/800-10W lithography tool will be the most advanced scanner made in China to date.

China's First 28nm-Capable Scanner to Be Delivered by End of 2023 : Read more

 

[ThomasKinsley]

I am a little confused about the nm class of these machines. China has been using DUV lithography (sources say 254–193-nm wavelength of light) to produce chips. Some reports claim they are able to use these machines to produce chips as small as 7nm. Is this 28nm-class scanner capable of producing smaller components or is it strictly capable of producing at 28nm?

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

Is this 28nm-class scanner capable of producing smaller components or is it strictly capable of producing at 28nm?

Good question, I'm also curious and have no idea.

 

[cyrusfox]

I am a little confused about the nm class of these machines. China has been using DUV lithography (sources say 254–193-nm wavelength of light) to produce chips. Some reports claim they are able to use these machines to produce chips as small as 7nm. Is this 28nm-class scanner capable of producing smaller components or is it strictly capable of producing at 28nm?

193nm immersion scanners can natively create 36nm with no multi-patterning tricks, with multi-patterning you can halve that (Known as pitch doubling, or even pitch quad, or any of various multiple industry terms), single application of this will enable print size of ≈18nm at the expense of additional processing steps (that come with added defects and error propagation). if you apply multipattern multiple times you can achieve sub 10nm. Not sure anyone has done more than a 2x cycle of this as it is quite cost prohibitive and errors multiply. I expect this scanner is only able to achieve 28nm class performance with multi-patterning or they are twisting logic and printing 36nm lines and calling it 28nm class.

If you want to know how good US semi fabs got at patterning, look at 2D Planar fab shrinkage which was actually accurate on marketing, IE true resolution unlike the current TSMC/Intel/Samsung Logic marketing terms. For NAND it was continously verified by actual chip teardowns/deprocessing.

2D NAND ran in to scaling issue, hence the change to stacking/3D. Any tech becomes more costly to go smaller (multiple patterning tricks vs EUV) and NAND memory cells degrade as you go smaller, playing with smaller number of electrons leading to less cycles before failure with each subsequent shrink. Hence all NAND players transitioned to 3D stacking after they got as much performance as possible from the 14-16nm range.

 

[cyrusfox]

This is impressive, if China is cost competitive here, they could provide competition to aging scanner tech in the US, we could see China litho tech in the USA in the future going against aging Nikon, Canon, and old ASML immersion tech. Still a lot of semi work done larger than 10nm out there.

 

[Amdlova]

China making cheap stuff is good for everyone.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

China making cheap stuff is good for everyone.

ahh yes, like the lead painted children’s toys and formaldehyde releasing building materials. You’re right, cheap Chinese stuff is good for everyone!

 

[TCA_ChinChin]

ahh yes, like the lead painted children’s toys and formaldehyde releasing building materials. You’re right, cheap Chinese stuff is good for everyone!

You forgot iPhones and everything else China makes. When you pay for cheap, you get cheap.

 

[vehekos]

28 nm is 20 years old technology.

But processors didn't advanced much in 20 years.

 

[cyrusfox]

28 nm is 20 years old technology.

But processors didn't advanced much in 20 years.

28nm did not ramp until 10 years ago...
Figure 1: Advanced technology capacity, 28 nanometer and below (includes 32-nanometer)

Westmere and Sandy Bridge (32nm) come from this level of technology, Sandy Bridge brought a huge uplift to Core performance.

If these reports are accurate it is impressive what China is achieving this against the western semiconductor embargoes. 28nm is the sweet spot for economical fabrication (no EUV and don't need to multi-pattern). Covid showed an extreme shortage of chips that is already heavily located in Asia. If China makes this cheap enough they can further corner the market on generalized semiconductors.

It appears to me that all the chip money is going towards making new shiny high margin products, not the bulk of IC that are needed like the simple analog and digital devices, 1 to 10 cent pieces, the semiconductor commodity market that long ago left our shores. I don't see any of this chip money from the US or European governments being used to return that side of supply back to the west. China and Asian in general will still be a critical side of the supply as many of these commodities will never be profitable to produce in the west.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

28nm did not ramp until 10 years ago...
Figure 1: Advanced technology capacity, 28 nanometer and below (includes 32-nanometer)

Westmere and Sandy Bridge (32nm) come from this level of technology, Sandy Bridge brought a huge uplift to Core performance.

If these reports are accurate it is impressive what China is achieving this against the western semiconductor embargoes. 28nm is the sweet spot for economical fabrication (no EUV and don't need to multi-pattern). Covid showed an extreme shortage of chips that is already heavily located in Asia. If China makes this cheap enough they can further corner the market on generalized semiconductors.

It appears to me that all the chip money is going towards making new shiny high margin products, not the bulk of IC that are needed like the simple analog and digital devices, 1 to 10 cent pieces, the semiconductor commodity market that long ago left our shores. I don't see any of this chip money from the US or European governments being used to return that side of supply back to the west. China and Asian in general will still be a critical side of the supply as many of these commodities will never be profitable to produce in the west.

Uhh, I live right next to Texas Instruments, one of the biggest analog and digital IC makers in the world…

 

[thisisaname]

China making cheap stuff is good for everyone.

They can only do that with cheap energy and while they are doing a lot with renewables, they have a significant amount of coal power stations.
Could this make the price of these cheap things rather high in environmental impact?
I could say more but I am trying to keep politics out of it.

 

[thisisaname]

This is impressive, if China is cost competitive here, they could provide competition to aging scanner tech in the US, we could see China litho tech in the USA in the future going against aging Nikon, Canon, and old ASML immersion tech. Still a lot of semi work done larger than 10nm out there.

Interesting but I am left wondering what size they could produce before this one.

China expects the first 28nm capable domestically produced scanner to be delivered before the end of the year. SMEE's SSA/800-10W lithography tool will be the most advanced scanner made in China to date.

So the 7nm stuff could not be made with this as this has not been delivered yet, also does not mean it is the most advanced in China just the "most advanced scanner made in China to date".

Did they import the 7nm parts or to me unlikely option the whole production line. There is more to making 7nm chips than a 7nm scanner.

 

[cyrusfox]

Uhh, I live right next to Texas Instruments, one of the biggest analog and digital IC makers in the world…

And yet in 2021 and 2022 Ford did not have chips needed and had to shut down production lines. TI even with their 11$ billion investment cannot outsupply western demand, Asia holds 74% market share of fabrication going:

This comes down to basic supply and demand, in a blockade we would once again find ourselves in a shortage, we are still dependent on Asia and TI does not change the calculus on that

 

[cyrusfox]

So the 7nm stuff could not be made with this as this has not been delivered yet, also does not mean it is the most advanced in China just the "most advanced scanner made in China to date".

Yes and no, the 7nm in theory could be made with Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE) 28nm scanner if utilizing pitch quad, but the suggested timeline of this scanner release precludes it from being a possibility.

The more likely scenario is the ASML equipment China still has, and access to parts for 3 more months likely produced 7nm items within china (but some doubt whether china truly produce 7nm class silicon or just rebranded it as china made). Its feasible/possible that they have made 7nm patterns with pitch quad. Now making test chips at advance node vs high volume ramp [with high yields] are opposite sides of the manufacturing curve. How long did Intel take to get 10nm out... But China could definitely produce a couple functioning 7nm class chips with the ASML equipment in their factories.

 

[thisisaname]

Yes and no, the 7nm in theory could be made with Shanghai Micro Electronics Equipment (SMEE) 28nm scanner if utilizing pitch quad, but the suggested timeline of this scanner release precludes it from being a possibility.

The more likely scenario is the ASML equipment China still has, and access to parts for 3 more months likely produced 7nm items within china (but some doubt whether china truly produce 7nm class silicon or just rebranded it as china made). Its feasible/possible that they have made 7nm patterns with pitch quad. Now making test chips at advance node vs high volume ramp [with high yields] are opposite sides of the manufacturing curve. How long did Intel take to get 10nm out... But China could definitely produce a couple functioning 7nm class chips with the ASML equipment in their factories.

I think we are broadly agreeing with each other. Looks like we are now living in "Interesting times" whether this is good or bad remains to be seen.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

And yet in 2021 and 2022 Ford did not have chips needed and had to shut down production lines. TI even with their 11$ billion investment cannot outsupply western demand, Asia holds 74% market share of fabrication going:

This comes down to basic supply and demand, in a blockade we would once again find ourselves in a shortage, we are still dependent on Asia and TI does not change the calculus on that

Um I think the US is fine seeing as how Texas Instruments alone holds 19% of global analog IC production. 6 out of the top 10 analog IC companies are US companies who alone hold 50.3% of the global market share. When you include Europe, the west holds over 2/3rds of the global market share. Notice how not one single Chinese, Taiwanese, or South Korean company makes the list. And US companies alone hold 29.53% of the global digital IC market. So you are absolutely and verifiably wrong about “the bulk of IC that are needed like the simple analog and digital devices, 1 to 10 cent pieces, the semiconductor commodity market that long ago left our shores. I don't see any of this chip money from the US or European governments being used to return that side of supply back to the west. China and Asian in general will still be a critical side of the supply as many of these commodities will never be profitable to produce in the west.”

 

[cyrusfox]

Um I think the US is fine seeing as how Texas Instruments alone holds 19% of global analog IC production. 6 out of the top 10 analog IC companies are US companies who alone hold 50.3% of the global market share. When you include Europe, the west holds over 2/3rds of the global market share. Notice how not one single Chinese, Taiwanese, or South Korean company makes the list. And US companies alone hold 29.53% of the global digital IC market. So you are absolutely and verifiably wrong about “the bulk of IC that are needed like the simple analog and digital devices, 1 to 10 cent pieces, the semiconductor commodity market that long ago left our shores. I don't see any of this chip money from the US or European governments being used to return that side of supply back to the west. China and Asian in general will still be a critical side of the supply as many of these commodities will never be profitable to produce in the west.”

I am likely off base here and talking outside my expertise, so perhaps my concerns and point of Asia being a permanent fixture of semi supply chain are untrue...

But as a counterpoint to your table, having a company Headquarter in the West does not preclude a significant portion of manufacturing from happening out East.

 

[The Historical Fidelity]

I am likely off base here and talking outside my expertise, so perhaps my concerns and point of Asia being a permanent fixture of semi supply chain are untrue...

But as a counterpoint to your table, having a company Headquarter in the West does not preclude a significant portion of manufacturing from happening out East.

True, so I did a check of the top 3 companies and Texas Instruments and Skyworks Solutions Fab locations are all in the US, Analog Devices Fabs are in the US and Ireland. Microchip Technology’s favs are also all in the US. So that is 42.2% of global production verified to be produced in the US with a minor volume being produced in Ireland.
The other 2 US companies have a mix between Western and Eastern Fab locations however I do not know their individual output volumes so cannot determine how much volume each Fab produces. Ex: Qorvo has 4 fabs in the US, 1 in Costa Rica, 1 in Germany, 2 in China, 1 in Malaysia, and 1 in the Philippines. ON Semi has 5 fabs in the US, 1 in Canada, 1 in Czech Republic, 3 in China, 2 in Japan, 3 in Malaysia, 2 in South Korea, 3 in the Philippines, and 2 in Vietnam.

It’s interesting that European analog IC production seems to be located primarily in the west as well. ST Fab locations are: 2 in Italy, 3 in France, and 1 in Singapore. NXT Fab locations are 2 in the US, 1 in the Netherlands, and 1 in Singapore. However, Infineon production is entirely in the East having fabs in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and China.

I think the main reason why you held your viewpoint is that no one talks about simple IC production so it’s assumed the West isn’t a major player. But with high automation, even low margin products are viable in western economies which is probably why the US is the single largest producer of analog IC’s by a far margin.