News Chinese-Produced Zhaoxin KX-6000 CPUs Purportedly Match Intel's Core i5-7400

[TJ Hooker]

Of course it doesn't, if it did have evidence then it would have been taken down long ago and it's writers would be in jail.

Err, ok. So in that case, what was the purpose of your link?

 

[Finstar]

^ that's one of the few people here who understands what's really going on.

I'd change in that quote only one thing: "expanding" into "shifting".
And that's what it's all about: some people are really unhappy that their "right" of spying on basically anyone they want is suddenly shifting to other people.

This exactly. People seem to be fine when the US is spying them but if China does it it's a horrible crime.
I'd actually rather have China spying me than US as that would have far less potential negative impact on my life.

 

[Finstar]

Err, ok. So in that case, what was the purpose of your link?

To give Bit_user the source he asked for?

 

[GetSmart]

I guess the point about matching Goldmont / Apollo Lake is probably enough to deprive Intel of quite a lot of low-end sales volume. But that was already moving to ARM, anyhow.

Different class of CPUs and SoCs altogether, and these octa-core CPUs are around 35W at least (heck even the quad core ones are around 18W). By comparing with Intel's Core i5-7400, they are aiming for the PC desktop. Anyway Intel's Apollo Lake has already being succeeded by Intel's Gemini Lake. However there is a shortage of Intel's Gemini Lake chips (as reported by Anandtech). Perhaps there is where they can fill the gap.

 

[King_V]

Let me correct my self: It's not a claim it's a fact. AMD PSP is a thing that exists. The only question is how many backdoors does it have?

And we have your just word for this that these management systems are designed deliberately to allow government spying?

Of course it doesn't, if it did have evidence then it would have been taken down long ago and it's writers would be in jail.

You start to understand at this point why you come off as a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist, don't you?

To give Bit_user the source he asked for?

A source that, in your own words, does not provide evidence?

 

[Finstar]

You start to understand at this point why you come off as a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist, don't you?

Do you say that to everyone who practices a little bit of critical thinking?
I'm not bothered by governments spying on me lol. What bothers me is how americans are completely fine with their Government spying on them but when a foreign country does it it's the end of the world.
Maybe you should think about your own hypocrisy before calling other people conspiracy theorists.

 

[GetSmart]

When it comes to IPC based on Geekbench 4, compared to Intel's Apollo Lake Intel Pentium N4200 @ 2.5GHz versus ZHAOXIN KaiXian KX-U6780A @ 2.70 GHz will have very similar results for single core/thread performance if that Intel Pentium N4200 has slightly higher clockspeed. Thus performs roughly around Intel's Goldmont architecture.

When compared to Intel's Gemini Lake Intel Pentium Silver N5000 @ 2.70 GHz versus ZHAOXIN KaiXian KX-U6780A @ 2.70 GHz with same clockspeeds, the difference in single core/thread performance is noticeable. Intel's newer Goldmont+ architecture is a bit faster overall (by +12%).

Performance-wise, already surpassed Intel's Silvermont (in Intel's Bay Trail) and Airmont (in Intel's Cherry Trail) architectures. Looks like Centaur Technology's latest architecture performance is almost catching up to Intel's lower end architectures except for the efficiency and wattage. At least there is some progress on VIA's x86 efforts.

 

[bit_user]

What about those five backdoors in Texas Instruments's network gear?

Link?

The US government and its agencies customarily issue gag orders, so regardless of whether companies comply with "requests" for assistance or resist them, the general public will not hear about them for decades.

The National Security Letters that are akin to wiretap requests concern stored user data held by service providers - not product design & engineering by device makers.

 

[bit_user]

i think most people deliberately chose to forget that win 10

There are actually some good points mixed in with this rubbish.

is all the back door anyone needs.

Really? You're confusing backdoors with spying. Sure, backdoors would enable spying, but a real backdoor provides remote access & control of your system. If there are backdoors in Win 10 that MS is knowingly not fixing, let's see the evidence. So far, MS has a good track record of fixing all back doors that have come to light.

As for spying, you're putting all spying on the same level. I think that's a mistake. MS collects data on websites visited and other usage habits, but (AFAIK) they don't snoop passwords or download copies of your docs, emails, etc.

there is a reason that not only the US gov but also even the china gov required windows to strip out the data mining before they would use it. even china said it was too much spying even for them!!!

I haven't seen such a statement, but I'm pretty sure what China has a problem with is spying that they don't control. Also, most of what MS is collecting, China can already see by virtue of their complete network activity and cloud data monitoring.

no reason to worry about hardware and such when the OS you are using is already doing the work for them.

Again, you're muddling the issue. Hardware can't really spy, to any great extent, but it can contain real back doors.

so MS is not a gov entity so this is ok right?? seems to be what folks are saying here.

I didn't see anyone saying that, but I think most/all of us are uncomfortable with the amount of spying & data collection done by corporate entities.

never mind that our gov has total access to that data collected by win 10. it's indirect but very clear what's going on. same goes for google, facebook, apple and so on. they collect and catalog the data and the gov let's em monetize it so long as they get to peek when they want to.

It's an excellent point that any data collected has the potential to be abused/misused not just by government, but also criminals, credit rating agencies, employers, political parties, blackmail, used to settle personal grudges, etc. These are some of the concerns that motivated the EU's GDPR, no doubt.

However, when you say "the gov let's (sp) em monetize it ...", exactly who do you mean by "the gov"? It seems to me Congress would have to pass a law that forbids or constrains this data collection, and I think the main reason that hasn't happened probably has more to do with lobbying than national security or law enforcement concerns.

Lately, big tech companies haven't exactly been seen in a good light, by Washington. However, instead of focusing on privacy regulations, the talk has now turned to the idea of breaking them up. I'm not sure that's not going to be an unproductive rat hole that'll just delay meaningful privacy legislation even further. And after the EU just set a good example with their GDPR, it really a shame that we can't carry some of that momentum.

 

[bit_user]

Apparently ARM and its related designs and vendors don't exist according to the article.

Not sure what you're talking about. Maybe quote the relevant part?

 

[bit_user]

Let me correct my self: It's not a claim it's a fact. AMD PSP is a thing that exists. The only question is how many backdoors does it have?

This is an answerable question, in fact! Someone recently figured out how to read the code for it. So, now it can be scrutinized.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/psptool-amd-secure-technology-psp-firmware,39590.html

I'm guessing AMD will switch to a better encryption method, in the next gen hardware. But, for now, it's almost as good as open sourced.

 

[bit_user]

Of course it doesn't, if it did have evidence then it would have been taken down long ago and it's writers would be in jail.

I'm not sure you understand how Freedom of the Press works, in the US.

While there have been a handful of reporters jailed for not revealing their sources, the act of reporting is not a crime. If it were, how do you figure the reporters covering the Snowden or Panama Papers scandals are still walking free?

 

[bit_user]

Not only that, they can go to american schools and some go back to China. The world is interconnected, eventually knowledge will be shared.

As @GetSmart pointed out, this chip (or at least its cores) was designed by Centaur Technology, which was bought in 1999 by VIA Technologies (Taiwanese). In 2013, VIA then entered a partnership with the Shanghai Municipal Government. So, even though Centaur isn't owned by a mainland Chinese company, no doubt the IP is being shared and worked on, there.

Plus, we don't know if Centaur (like many US tech firms) has off-shore engineering in Taiwan or mainland China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centaur_Technology

VIA Technologies - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[bit_user]

I'd actually rather have China spying me than US as that would have far less potential negative impact on my life.

For now, anyway. Just wait until China starts to make its Social Credit system available to foreign commercial entities. ...or perhaps even when you start using services provided by Chinese-owned companies.

 

[bit_user]

Do you say that to everyone who practices a little bit of critical thinking?

No, the problem is when you make specific, unverified claims.

It's fine to say "I don't like Intel ME or AMD PSP, because I don't trust them to be free of backdoors". It's another thing, entirely, to state that government mandated backdoors exist in them, without actually knowing whether that's true.

americans are completely fine with their Government spying on them

Source?

Certainly, some people trot out the old canard "you don't have to worry if you're doing nothing wrong" - to which I've never subscribed (and flies in the face of the 4th Amendment), but I think those people are now firmly in the minority.

but when a foreign country does it it's the end of the world.

Well, that is potentially a bigger problem, because there's no legal recourse.

Maybe you should think about your own hypocrisy before calling other people conspiracy theorists.

I haven't seen one example of such hypocrisy. If there's any I missed, feel free to call them out.

 

[Finstar]

I'm not sure you understand how Freedom of the Press works, in the US.

While there have been a handful of reporters jailed for not revealing their sources, the act of reporting is not a crime. If it were, how do you figure the reporters covering the Snowden or Panama Papers scandals are still walking free?

By not being the leakers? You do know why the US government want people like Snowden and Julian Assange dead?

For now, anyway. Just wait until China starts to make its Social Credit system available to foreign commercial entities. ...or perhaps even when you start using services provided by Chinese-owned companies.

You like to ask for sources but you fail to provide your own for why any of this would happen.
Conveniently, this also works as my evidence for Americans being fine with their government spying them.
If it's NSA in question you ask for sources and try to find anything that can't be proven. When is China in question however you're willing to make up claims and throw mud without any evidence.

 

[bit_user]

By not being the leakers? You do know why the US government want people like Snowden and Julian Assange dead?

I don't know about Snowden, but Assange currently is not charged with a capital offense.

In any case, putting either of them to death would just create a martyr. That's not to say they wouldn't do it, but we just don't know because it hasn't happened.

Getting back to the original point about journalists, they seem to be side-stepping the issue of whether Assange is a journalist by prosecuting him for helping Manning get the data. And if you want to talk about punishing leakers, what Manning did is definitely worse than Assange - and Manning was never sentenced to death. Being military, Manning didn't even have the benefits of our civilian justice system.

So, you're kind of at a dead end, with this whole line of reasoning.

You like to ask for sources but you fail to provide your own for why any of this would happen.

Huh? I can provide sources for any facts I state. What facts are in dispute?

Conveniently, this also works as my evidence for Americans being fine with their government spying them.

sigh

This discussion is not headed in a productive direction.

If it's NSA in question you ask for sources and try to find anything that can't be proven.

Any statement of fact should be based on evidence. That's all I ask. If you can't do that much, then you shouldn't be stating it as fact. At that point, it's only a mere suspicion. I recognize your right to be suspicious and distrustful.

When is China in question however you're willing to make up claims and throw mud without any evidence.

I am suspicious of China. I don't trust them not to put a backdoor in their chips, but I can't point you to any evidence that they've done it (other than the Supermicro case, which is sort of different).

I'm not trying to have a double-standard, here.

 

[Finstar]

I'm not trying to have a double-standard, here.

Oh yes you are.
Go read my comment again, this time a bit slower, you might just find the answers to your questions.

 

[bit_user]

Oh yes you are.

It was a statement of intent. The point of which is to inform you that I welcome any inconsistencies you find. I will try to resolve those, accordingly.

Go read my comment again, this time a bit slower, you might just find the answers to your questions.

I did read your message and requested clarifications. If you can't be bothered to supply the requested specifics, then I can't help you.

 

[Finstar]

I did read your message and requested clarifications. If you can't be bothered to supply the requested specifics, then I can't help you.

I did supply the the specifics, you just chose to ignore them.

 

[bit_user]

I did supply the the specifics, you just chose to ignore them.

C'mon, let's see some of that critical thinking. All I seem to be getting from you is trolling.

I hope you're not confusing lazy cynicism with critical thinking. That'd be unfortunate.

 

[Urzu1000]

I'm shocked that so many of the comments are focused on politics and conspiracies. This is Tom's Hardware, right? The fact that a fourth company has entered the x86 fray in a meaningful manner is nearly Earth-shattering news. And performance wise they're only a couple years behind the current heavy-hitters - that's a gap that could be closed in a mere generation or two.

 

[Finstar]

I'm shocked that so many of the comments are focused on politics and conspiracies. This is Tom's Hardware, right? The fact that a fourth company has entered the x86 fray in a meaningful manner is nearly Earth-shattering news. And performance wise they're only a couple years behind the current heavy-hitters - that's a gap that could be closed in a mere generation or two.

I don't think politics should be involved in this. It's just a shame that so many people here have an anti-China bias and are not willing to give this company a chance because of it.

 

[Rogue Leader]

You start to understand at this point why you come off as a tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist, don't you?

Oh yes you are.
Go read my comment again, this time a bit slower, you might just find the answers to your questions.

I'm seeing a whole lot of people treading very close to a trip to ban town in this thread. Not just the two I quoted above, although @Finstar you are the closest. Personal attacks are a no-no. Personal accusations (i.e. you are a racist!), also a no-no. Unverified information when asked to cite it, for the purpose of inciting other users, also a no-no. You have a problem with what someone is posting, DO NOT respond, hit the Report button. If you can't have a civil conversation, take a break and walk away.

If this discussion continues on this path, those who continue it on that path will be taking an involuntary break.

 

[DavidC1]

When compared to Intel's Gemini Lake Intel Pentium Silver N5000 @ 2.70 GHz versus ZHAOXIN KaiXian KX-U6780A @ 2.70 GHz with same clockspeeds, the difference in single core/thread performance is noticeable. Intel's newer Goldmont+ architecture is a bit faster overall (by +12%).

Actually Goldmont Plus is quite a bit better. The overall score is not such a good comparison.

Comparison of Integer performance shows that Goldmont Plus is 27% better. Zhaoxin gets ahead because of memory performance. The stupid thing about the overall score is that it puts Memory in a separate category altogether. Integer/FP testing are affected by Memory performance so the overall scores are counting memory performance twice.