Question CLC vs Air Cooler vs AIO for 10850K Perf\Longetivity Ratio?

edo101

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Hi guys, I can't seem to get a good answer here.

Situation: I want to hit 5.0 flat, all cores on my 10850K. I've always used air coolers. My last build which still runs today was an i7-930. Built and cooled first by a Scythe Mugen 2 in 2010. Upgraded cooler to Silver Arrow SB-E in 2013 and that Silver Arrow is still running in 2020. 7 Years

I just upgraded to a 10850K a week ago and it's thought me one thing, upgrading CPUs is expensive if you want a beefier build. I don't want to do any upgrades till maybe 6 years? I'm just a dude that likes to play video games at 4K and 4K3D and do video editing when i can. thats at most what I do. I am not an overclocker pushing for highest bench scores.


Right now, I have an NH-14 running on the CPU which does a good job with my auto OC settings. I planning on when I get time hopefully this weekend to manually tune my OC so that it doesn't run 4.8Ghz at 1.36V which is ridiculous for all cores. Temps playing video game is 45 to 55C with this auto boosting and overvolting. Prime95AVX2 is 105C. Blender and the rest that use AVX are 95C to 100C. But again, this is with auto OC which the Asrock Taichi Z490 overcompensates in.

Do I need a CLC or can I go with a DH-15 for my usage. My case is the Phanteks 500a RGB which has good airflow. Right now, I have ordered DH-15 and an Arctic Liquid Freezer Ii 360 along with the NH-14 which is my temp cooler.

I hear CLCs have a short life span. Do I really need a hybrid cooler? I WILL NOT DO A FULL WATER LOOP. Or would it be better to go with an AIO like the Bequiet Pure Loop, or should I be good with a DH-15?
Again I don't want to have to buy a new cooler in 2 to 4 years. I only upgrade my CPU when I find that my games no longer run optimally at 4K.
 

USAFRet

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Situation: I want to hit 5.0 flat, all cores on my 10850K.
That depends on the specific individual CPU you have in your hands.

There is no cooling system that would guarantee that result (except for the momentary reaches of LN2 or similar)

Liquid, especially CLC, is not magic.

Short life span? Well...an air cooler will never leak.
 

edo101

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That depends on the specific individual CPU you have in your hands.

There is no cooling system that would guarantee that result (except for the momentary reaches of LN2 or similar)

Liquid, especially CLC, is not magic.

Short life span? Well...an air cooler will never leak.
Yeah sadly I just haven't had the time to tune it yet. I have a feeling it should. It boosts to 4.8 all core. What 200mhz more? That's not really the issue. The issue is cooling the CPU in general. I don't want to buy something to replace it in 4 years.
 

USAFRet

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Yeah sadly I just haven't had the time to tune it yet. I have a feeling it should. It boosts to 4.8 all core. What 200mhz more? That's not really the issue. The issue is cooling the CPU in general. I don't want to buy something to replace it in 4 years.
4-5 years is about the expected lifespan of a CLC.


"200MHz more" may be the dark side of the moon, as far as your specific CPU is concerned.
It might, it might not.
 

Phaaze88

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I want to hit 5.0 flat, all cores on my 10850K.
Why so hung up on 200mhz?
Then:
I am not an overclocker pushing for highest bench scores.
Why so hung up on 200mhz?


I addressed this before in your other thread, but you still need to win the silicon lottery.
Comet LakeAll Core SSE FrequencyAll Core AVX2 FrequencyPer Core FrequencyAll Core Die Sense VcorePower Limit% Capable
10850K4.80GHz4.70GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.130V210W100%
10850K4.90GHz4.80GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.150V220WTop 57%
10850K5.00GHz4.90GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.170V230WTop 6%
Many 10850Ks are not capable of all core 5.0ghz.
What will you do if your sample isn't a golden one?
 

rubix_1011

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On the Tom's Hardware test bench, I started out with all 10 cores of the 10850k at 5ghz, but this was only possible and sustainable on 360mm AIOs. Anything smaller would throttle, and even the 360 AIOs would be in the high 80s/low 90's Celsius during Prime95 loads. This is the main reason I went with 10 core overclock at 4.6ghz instead, so that only the smallest coolers have any real threat of throttling, and usually at 50% fan PWM. It is hard to compare apples to apples when some of those apples are in the oven, getting burnt to a crisp.

If you aren't actually doing AVX specific anything in real life, then you are likely going to be better off, as you mentioned, better temps during gaming than stress testing. However, you're going to want to try and find the lowest vcore settings you can to maintain stability, which requires a lot of testing, reconfig of BIOS, retesting, BIOS, retesting, BIOS...etc. until you find that sweet spot.
 

edo101

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On the Tom's Hardware test bench, I started out with all 10 cores of the 10850k at 5ghz, but this was only possible and sustainable on 360mm AIOs. Anything smaller would throttle, and even the 360 AIOs would be in the high 80s/low 90's Celsius during Prime95 loads. This is the main reason I went with 10 core overclock at 4.6ghz instead, so that only the smallest coolers have any real threat of throttling, and usually at 50% fan PWM. It is hard to compare apples to apples when some of those apples are in the oven, getting burnt to a crisp.

If you aren't actually doing AVX specific anything in real life, then you are likely going to be better off, as you mentioned, better temps during gaming than stress testing. However, you're going to want to try and find the lowest vcore settings you can to maintain stability, which requires a lot of testing, reconfig of BIOS, retesting, BIOS, retesting, BIOS...etc. until you find that sweet spot.
But that's prime. Does that represent how Video editors with AVX will run? @rubix_1011
 

edo101

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Why so hung up on 200mhz?
Then:

Why so hung up on 200mhz?


I addressed this before in your other thread, but you still need to win the silicon lottery.
Comet LakeAll Core SSE FrequencyAll Core AVX2 FrequencyPer Core FrequencyAll Core Die Sense VcorePower Limit% Capable
10850K4.80GHz4.70GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.130V210W100%
10850K4.90GHz4.80GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.150V220WTop 57%
10850K5.00GHz4.90GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.170V230WTop 6%
Many 10850Ks are not capable of all core 5.0ghz.
What will you do if your sample isn't a golden one?
Ok, some OCD and the fact that I want to see if this thing can handle a mild OC. I am not asking for 5.1. Just 5.0

Btw is Prime95 and its brethren stress tests accurate represenation of what a video editing software would do to my CPU?
 

rubix_1011

Contributing Writer
Moderator
But that's prime. Does that represent how Video editors with AVX will run? @rubix_1011
Likely, but depends on their utilization of CPU during those threads. Most CPU rendering will push AVX and CPU utilization, but just editing video using something like Adobe Premier or Final Cut might be less if you aren't generating frames, but rather cutting/splicing, editing footage. However, I'm no expert there, so I could be completely wrong.
 

edo101

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Why so hung up on 200mhz?
Then:

Why so hung up on 200mhz?


I addressed this before in your other thread, but you still need to win the silicon lottery.
Comet LakeAll Core SSE FrequencyAll Core AVX2 FrequencyPer Core FrequencyAll Core Die Sense VcorePower Limit% Capable
10850K4.80GHz4.70GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.130V210W100%
10850K4.90GHz4.80GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.150V220WTop 57%
10850K5.00GHz4.90GHz6C+100MHz
3C+200MHz
1.170V230WTop 6%
Many 10850Ks are not capable of all core 5.0ghz.
What will you do if your sample isn't a golden one?
Likely, but depends on their utilization of CPU during those threads. Most CPU rendering will push AVX and CPU utilization, but just editing video using something like Adobe Premier or Final Cut might be less if you aren't generating frames, but rather cutting/splicing, editing footage. However, I'm no expert there, so I could be completely wrong.
DO you guys know if the EK 360MM RGB has a refill port? @rubix_1011 @Phaaze88
 

Phaaze88

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I guess you meant THIS... No, it doesn't.

THIS ONE is - I have one. The problem is the fans. Using round frame fans is not ideal on radiators. It's less of a problem when using them as pull fans, but then the LEDs aren't as visible - didn't matter to me, I replaced them.
 

edo101

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I guess you meant THIS... No, it doesn't.

THIS ONE is - I have one. The problem is the fans. Using round frame fans is not ideal on radiators. It's less of a problem when using them as pull fans, but then the LEDs aren't as visible - didn't matter to me, I replaced them.
Yeah someone told me it had a refill port. sigh, I guess not.

Pull fans? As in they are pulling air from outside into the radiator? I though that was standard operation? And what do you mean the lights are not visible?
 

USAFRet

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Yeah someone told me it had a refill port. sigh, I guess not.

Pull fans? As in they are pulling air from outside into the radiator? I though that was standard operation? And what do you mean the lights are not visible?
Pull, as in pulling air through the rad.
Instead of pusing it through.

Intake or exhaust with reference to the case depends on where it is installed.
A front mounted rad would be intake, bringing outside air in.
A top mounted rad would be exhaust, out the top.
 

Phaaze88

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Pull fans? As in they are pulling air from outside into the radiator?
Negative.
Pull: pull air through the radiator. In other words, depending on the location of the rad inside the chassis, the fans are either behind or on top of the rad.
Push: push air through the radiator. In other words, the fans are either in front of or below the rad.

And what do you mean the lights are not visible?
In that particular model, the LEDs are a small ring in the inner fan frame. They are easy to obstruct if used as pull fans.
I tested them before I eventually tossed them out.
 

HappyTrails

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Would suppose depend on purpose of pc but if just gaming then not make lots of difference from what I see on my pc. Last nite I had the lockup in Cyberpunks so I restart pc and let it run stock 4.4ghz single cores, then check at 4.3ghz all cores maybe lost 1-2fps so my thoughts are if you use pc for gaming and fps is important then maybe not stress over 100ghz even thought 5.0 is nice number its not much difference in performance. This not same as running prime or cinebench talking more real use so depends what you intend pc for.
 

edo101

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Negative.
Pull: pull air through the radiator. In other words, depending on the location of the rad inside the chassis, the fans are either behind or on top of the rad.
Push: push air through the radiator. In other words, the fans are either in front of or below the rad.


In that particular model, the LEDs are a small ring in the inner fan frame. They are easy to obstruct if used as pull fans.
I tested them before I eventually tossed them out.
Would suppose depend on purpose of pc but if just gaming then not make lots of difference from what I see on my pc. Last nite I had the lockup in Cyberpunks so I restart pc and let it run stock 4.4ghz single cores, then check at 4.3ghz all cores maybe lost 1-2fps so my thoughts are if you use pc for gaming and fps is important then maybe not stress over 100ghz even thought 5.0 is nice number its not much difference in performance. This not same as running prime or cinebench talking more real use so depends what you intend pc for.
I suppoose that's the point you guys are trying to make then? @Phaaze88 @HappyTrails . I won't be losing much performance in gaming (4K) and video editing if i stay at 4.8Ghz instead of dumping a lot of power and heat to try and get to 5.0ghz corrrect?

Yes 5.0 is a nice even nnumber but I don't wanna spend a lot just to keep it cool since its only a 200 mhz difference. Hell if I get to 4.9 all cores, I think I'd be fine with that.

ANd @Phaaze88 So whats wrong with push air through radiator then? Why not leave the fans on top of the radiator so they can pull in air from outside and push it throguh the rad?
 

USAFRet

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ANd @Phaaze88 So whats wrong with push air through radiator then? Why not leave the fans on top of the radiator so they can pull in air from outside and push it throguh the rad?
You're conflatng 2 different problems

  1. Round frames, pushing through the rad, tends to leak a lot of air around the 'corners'. A square frame fan does not allow that.
  2. "pull in air from outside and push it throguh the rad" - You only do that with a FRONT mounted rad. A top mounted rad needs the air to exhaust out the top of the case, whether push or pull through the rad.
 
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Phaaze88

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Gonna break this down - pardon my multi-quotes, it's a bad habit of mine.
I won't be losing much performance in gaming (4K) and video editing if i stay at 4.8Ghz instead of dumping a lot of power and heat to try and get to 5.0ghz corrrect?
It's 4 bloody K.
You are like, 95% gpu bound at that resolution.
Unless you play single threaded titles like Minecraft all the time, a 200mhz bump isn't going to do jack-all there.

Yes 5.0 is a nice even nnumber but I don't wanna spend a lot just to keep it cool since its only a 200 mhz difference. Hell if I get to 4.9 all cores, I think I'd be fine with that.
I posted this in another thread, but here - just run this: Intel Performance Maximizer
It isn't perfect - I don't expect it to be, but if nothing else, it'll give you somewhere to start. You should be able to tune it even further on your own.

So whats wrong with push air through radiator then? Why not leave the fans on top of the radiator so they can pull in air from outside and push it throguh the rad?
1)A disadvantage of push compared to pull is that there is some air 'blowback' against the radiator, resulting in a small loss of cooling efficiency. Pull gets around this.
2)Did you mean top intake? Well, this wouldn't be too bad of an idea, but there's a very common problem: Users.
Most of us get these aftermarket models that dump their heat inside the chassis, that heat runs into the top intake, and all that does is stall airflow = reduced cooling efficiency.
That's why most setups doing top radiators should do exhaust.
 

edo101

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You're conflatng 2 different problems

  1. Round frames, pushing through the rad, tends to leak a lot of air around the 'corners'. A square frame fan does not allow that.
  2. "pull in air from outside and push it throguh the rad" - You only do that with a FRONT mounted rad. A top mounted rad needs the air to exhaust out the top of the case, whether push or pull through the rad.
Why can't you pulll in air from the top of the case? How can you keep your CPU cool with a top mounted fan if all you're doing is exausting hot air?
 

edo101

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Gonna break this down - pardon my multi-quotes, it's a bad habit of mine.

It's 4 bloody K.
You are like, 95% gpu bound at that resolution.
Unless you play single threaded titles like Minecraft all the time, a 200mhz bump isn't going to do jack-all there.


I posted this in another thread, but here - just run this: Intel Performance Maximizer
It isn't perfect - I don't expect it to be, but if nothing else, it'll give you somewhere to start. You should be able to tune it even further on your own.


1)A disadvantage of push compared to pull is that there is some air 'blowback' against the radiator, resulting in a small loss of cooling efficiency. Pull gets around this.
2)Did you mean top intake? Well, this wouldn't be too bad of an idea, but there's a very common problem: Users.
Most of us get these aftermarket models that dump their heat inside the chassis, that heat runs into the top intake, and all that does is stall airflow = reduced cooling efficiency.
That's why most setups doing top radiators should do exhaust.
But all I have in my case is 3 intake fans apparently pulling in cool air from the front of my case. if I were to use an AIO or CLC, I was gonna top mount it so it can pull in air from outside. and send it to my CPU along with the intake fans that are pulling in air from my front. Then when I can I suppoose I would put an exhaust fan back of my case to exhaust air. How in the name of God is hot air being sent from the top of my case/stalling air flow in the chassis? @Phaaze88
 

USAFRet

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Why can't you pulll in air from the top of the case? How can you keep your CPU cool with a top mounted fan if all you're doing is exausting hot air?
The air coming from the rad is warm. You're pushing warm air down into the case.
Plus, the CPU is not cooled by airflow inside the case. It is cooled by transferring that heat load to whatever is attached to its face. Either a large air cooler, or a water block.

Basic case concept:
Cool air in the front, warm air out the top and back.

You need both intake and exhaust.
Fans, even on a rad, are to move air through the case. Not just blow it around inside.
 
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Phaaze88

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So it sounds like you were gonna do top and front intake? In most scenarios, that doesn't work too well - I'm not saying it's downright terrible, but front intake and top exhaust would be more effective.

How in the name of God is hot air being sent from the top of my case/stalling air flow in the chassis?
The heat is being sent to the radiator to be removed by the fans.
So if you have top intake, you now have a scenario where 'heat(cpu) meets heat(gpu)', with the rear fan being the way out... which likely isn't sufficient depending on your hardware.
 

edo101

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So it sounds like you were gonna do top and front intake? In most scenarios, that doesn't work too well - I'm not saying it's downright terrible, but front intake and top exhaust would be more effective.


The heat is being sent to the radiator to be removed by the fans.
So if you have top intake, you now have a scenario where 'heat(cpu) meets heat(gpu)', with the rear fan being the way out... which likely isn't sufficient depending on your hardware.
The air coming from the rad is warm. You're pushing warm air down into the case.
Plus, the CPU is not cooled by airflow inside the case. It is cooled by transferring that heat load to whatever is attached to its face. Either a large air cooler, or a water block.

Basic case concept:
Cool air in the front, warm air out the top and back.

You need both intake and exhaust.
Fans, even on a rad, are to move air through the case. Not just blow it around inside.
Yes I was gonna do a top mount. So if heat is sent from the CPU to the rad... and your exausting it.... How does your CPU stay cool? The water is being hit by warm exaust air.

And by that notion then, if you mount it to the front... Aren't you also exhausting hot air into the case? Isn't this just a matter of fan orientation?
 

USAFRet

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Yes I was gonna do a top mount. So if heat is sent from the CPU to the rad... and your exausting it.... How does your CPU stay cool? The water is being hit by warm exaust air.

And by that notion then, if you mount it to the front... Aren't you also exhausting hot air into the case? Isn't this just a matter of fan orientation?
The eternal conundrum.

Whether 'tis better to push warm rad air into the case and heat up everything else.
or
Is it better to pull already warmed air through the rad, exhausting out the top.

I posit that there is no One True Way.
Case config, components inside, specific rad and fans....all have an impact.

My Cryorig A80 is rad is top exhaust.
That same rad in your specific case and components might be better as a front intake. Or not.
But I'm not going to take my whole config apart and mount it as front intake, to discover thatthe CPU is 2C lower, but 3C higher on the GPU and motherboard.

Pick one and go with it.
Or, faff about endlessly which config is better.



But... top intake or front exhaust is almost always incorrect.
 
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