News Commodore 64 can use AI to generate 8x8 sprites — takes 20 minutes for 90 iterations

[Admin]

Nickbild on GitHub creates and documents a Commodore 64 AI sprite generator.

Commodore 64 can use AI to generate 8x8 sprites — takes 20 minutes for 90 iterations : Read more

 

[ThomasKinsley]

Another article demonstrating that you don't need fundamentally special hardware to run generative AI.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Another article demonstrating that you don't need fundamentally special hardware to run generative AI.

Of course not, it's just math. What you do need is sufficient memory to do the math, which often becomes the limiting factor. The difference is that doing 8x8 pixel images is FAR easier than doing 512x512 images. And since we're doing math, there are approximately:

1.158 X 10^77 unique 16-color 8x8 images you can theoretically generate on a C-64. Or if you prefer the exact number:
115,792,089,237,316,195,423,570,985,008,687,907,853,269,984,665,640,564,039,457,584,007,913,129,639,936

So, how many unique 512x512 24-bit color images are there? Oh, not too many, just...
9.384 X 10^3044820

Here's the full number, which is a bit like calculating Pi to three million digits. LOL

 

[ThomasKinsley]

Of course not, it's just math. What you do need is sufficient memory to do the math, which often becomes the limiting factor. The difference is that doing 8x8 pixel images is FAR easier than doing 512x512 images. And since we're doing math, there are approximately:

1.158 X 10^77 unique 16-color 8x8 images you can theoretically generate on a C-64. Or if you prefer the exact number:
115,792,089,237,316,195,423,570,985,008,687,907,853,269,984,665,640,564,039,457,584,007,913,129,639,936

So, how many unique 512x512 24-bit color images are there? Oh, not too many, just...
9.384 X 10^3044820

Here's the full number, which is a bit like calculating Pi to three million digits. LOL

For the record, I didn't mean it to come across as negatively as it may have seemed. I'm just trying to filter out the complications of NPUs and TOPS and other specs that do not appear to be critical to run AI.

 

[vern72]

One of the best selling home computers of all time? No, THE best selling home computer of all time!

 

[kyzarvs]

One of the best selling home computers of all time? No, THE best selling home computer of all time!

I've no idea, but I would have guessed the Amiga / Atari ST wars would have generated more sales than the C64? Just curious as I defected from a Spectrum 128k +2 to the Commodore side of the pond with an Amiga back in the day...

 

[sitehostplus]

Another article demonstrating that you don't need fundamentally special hardware to run generative AI.

Well, if you don't mind taking eons of time for your hardware to render a single frame, go for it!

 

[EvmhCanadian7]

Of course not, it's just math. What you do need is sufficient memory to do the math, which often becomes the limiting factor. The difference is that doing 8x8 pixel images is FAR easier than doing 512x512 images. And since we're doing math, there are approximately:

1.158 X 10^77 unique 16-color 8x8 images you can theoretically generate on a C-64. Or if you prefer the exact number:
115,792,089,237,316,195,423,570,985,008,687,907,853,269,984,665,640,564,039,457,584,007,913,129,639,936

So, how many unique 512x512 24-bit color images are there? Oh, not too many, just...
9.384 X 10^3044820

Here's the full number, which is a bit like calculating Pi to three million digits. LOL

Actually, Stable Diffusion (as an example) generates images in a 64x64 "latent space" and at the end "upscales" to 512x512.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

One of the best selling home computers of all time? No, THE best selling home computer of all time!

This all hinges around the definition of "home computer." I would argue that the modern consoles can basically be classified as a home computer. Certainly they're more flexible than a C-64 in a lot of ways, though you can't just run any old program. But can you surf the web on a PS5 or Xbox Series X? Sort of, and PS4 did have a fully functional web browser. That makes for a reasonably potent PC.

And how many MacBooks are there? Well, millions (about 6~8 million per quarter) are sold these days. Those are absolutely in the same "home computer" category as the C-64 back in its heyday. Every MacBook might not be identical in configuration, but it's really mincing words to pretend that the C-64 — which according to wiki sold around 17 million units max. ("...listed in the Guinness World Records as the highest-selling single computer model of all time [as of 2014], with independent estimates placing the number sold between 12.5 and 17 million units."

Basically, it only ranks high be virtue of not being at all configurable in many respects. If you have two Dell PCs that share all the same base hardware (motherboard, PSU, etc.) but differ in the CPU, RAM, GPU, storage, or any other area, they're not the "same" and thus don't count. In other words, C-64 by this token definition really was a console, with slightly more flexibility in some areas.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Actually, Stable Diffusion (as an example) generates images in a 64x64 "latent space" and at the end "upscales" to 512x512.

Hmmm... so only 2.836 X 10^29593 potential images, though then upscaling might not be fully deterministic. Doesn't SD do multiple iterations (upscaling passes?) to improve the end quality?

 

[vern72]

I've no idea, but I would have guessed the Amiga / Atari ST wars would have generated more sales than the C64? Just curious as I defected from a Spectrum 128k +2 to the Commodore side of the pond with an Amiga back in the day...

The Amiga/Atari ST *family* might have sold more but the catch is that the C64 was not configurable. All the C64 came with one configuration (then eventually the C64C came along) and that's where the trick is.

 

[KEV711]

Title is wrong take 20min to make 4096pix 64x64

 

[KEV711]

The Amiga/Atari ST *family* might have sold more but the catch is that the C64 was not configurable. All the C64 came with one configuration (then eventually the C64C came along) and that's where the trick is.

What are you talking about?configurable? Explain

 

[vern72]

What are you talking about?configurable? Explain

What I mean is that the C64 only came with one CPU type, one sound chip type, one configuration of memory, etc. There was no variations coming from the factory. Once people got there hands on it however...

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Title is wrong take 20min to make 4096pix 64x64

Saying it's "wrong" makes no sense, as "iterations" is simply a way to refine image generation by breaking things down into more steps. So, "90 iterations" just means the algorithm iterates on the 4096 pixels 90 times, hopefully getting better results with each pass.

What I mean is that the C64 only came with one CPU type, one sound chip type, one configuration of memory, etc. There was no variations coming from the factory. Once people got there hands on it however...

Technically the floppy drives and some other elements were sold separately, and there were a few iterations. My friend had the original C64, but when I managed to convince my mom to buy me a Commodore, the C128 was available. You could boot it in either 64K or 128K modes (and CP/M, though I'm not sure if I ever used that mode), but we used the 64K mode probably 99% of the time. (I did have a word processing program that ran in 128K mode, though, and a few games used it.) There was also the revised C64C that was basically the original C64 hardware but with a design that looked like the C128.

One of the more interesting bits about some of the old Commodore systems is that later floppy drives had (IIRC) a second CPU included inside them. I remember someone showing me a setup that had daisy-chained a bunch of floppy drives together and basically offered far more compute than you'd normally expect from the C128. Of course, by that time there were single Intel CPUs that were probably close to an order of magnitude faster than the original 6510 and even the updated 6502 chips.

 

[sitehostplus]

I've no idea, but I would have guessed the Amiga / Atari ST wars would have generated more sales than the C64? Just curious as I defected from a Spectrum 128k +2 to the Commodore side of the pond with an Amiga back in the day...

Total Commodore 64 sales....about 30 million lifetime.

Total Atart ST sales....2 million lifetime.

Total Amiga sales....4.85 million lifetime.

The C64 trounced them both by a factor of 4.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Total Commodore 64 sales....about 30 million lifetime.

Total Atart ST sales....2 million lifetime.

Total Amiga sales....4.85 million lifetime.

The C64 trounced them both by a factor of 4.

Man, that's actually shocking to me. I knew C64 was more popular, but I had a couple of friends with Amigas and I definitely wanted one. But the Amiga was only 1/6 the sales of the original.

My dad ended up getting me into the PC world instead, though, and while my original 286/12MHz wasn't necessarily better than an Amiga in so many ways, over time my skills with DOS and PC hardware became far more useful. And by the time 386 came around, I think it was clearly superior hardware wise than an Amiga (but Amiga still had some nice tricks on graphics and sound).