Question Cooling Issue is Back and I am Confused

[Toolies]

Good Morning All-

I have unfortunately been blessed with the same cooling issue I posted in the forums on back in November 2021.

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/cooling-fan-concerns-with-ibuypower-pc.3733158/

Quick history: I have a prebuilt ibuypower PC which developed a cooling problem and loud noise associated with AIO cooling system. After multiple posts and excellent replies, I ended p changing out the stock cooler that was installed in the PC and replaced it with the Cooler Master Master Liquid ML120L RGB V2 . After installation, the temps went back down to around 30 deg C and seemed to be good.

In March 2022, I started to experience the same issues with the CPU temps, almost identical to what I had experienced previously. Strangely enough, the issues started after my son downloaded a gaming program called CurseForge and started to play Minecraft. The CPU temps went back up to 70-80 deg C on average. I once again tried trouble shooting, cleaning, and pulling my hair out. All nothing helped. Being super impatient, I changed out the CPU cooler again with a new Cooler Master Master Liquid ML120R ARGB Close-Loop AIO CPU Liquid Cooler.

The temps went back to normal with no issues. Using CoreTemp, I kept an eye on it and everything was great. Then my son once again downloaded the same CurseForge app and played Minecraft. Teenagers = doesn't listen to anything I say. That leads me to the current situation:

• The CPU temps go down to around 50 deg C when the PC sleeps but when turned back on they creep back to between 70-80 deg C.
• No viruses have been found or identified
• The case is free of dust and debris
• There are no identified updates needed
• I cannot identify any programs running continuously in the background that may be causing this
• Issue started after playing Minecraft and CurseForge usage
• The program Dragon Center is still installed but not in use
• The fan noise has increased due to higher rpm but no other noises have been identified
• The CPU temps will not drop down to normal but stay elevated even when PC is idle

Additional info:

Operating System: Windows 10 Home 64-bit

CPU: Intel Core i9 10900K @ 3.70GHz
Comet Lake 14nm Technology

RAM: 32.0GB Dual-Channel Unknown @ 1066MHz (15-15-15-36)

Motherboard: Micro-Star International Co. Ltd. Z490-A PRO (MS-7C75) (U3E1)

Graphics: C27F398 (1920x1080@60Hz)
4095MB NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER (Gigabyte)

Storage: 931GB Western Digital WDC WDS100T2G0A-00JH30 (SATA (SSD))
931GB Western Digital WDC WD10EZEX-00WN4A0 (SATA )

I am worried there is something else causing these temperatures to rise and stay elevated. I have a hard time believing the pumps are wearing out and need to be replaced this often. I am a computer noob but slowly learning. I thought I had this issue figured out.

Sorry for the long post and all the information. This issue is driving me nuts. Any assistance or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tennis2]

https://www.newegg.com/deepcool-as500-plus/p/N82E16835856204

 

[Toolies]

Thank you for the response and the link.

Are you recommending I ditch the AIO system and install a more traditional CPU cooling fan?

 

[Phaaze88]

Can your son not play Minecraft without Curse Forge?
While a 120mm AIO isn't appropriate for a 10900K, it should be fine under light loads. Minecraft is heavily bound by a single core - it ain't no Cinebench... but modding apps may change that formula.

So, back to the original question: Play without Curse Forge?

 

[tennis2]

Are you recommending I ditch the AIO system and install a more traditional CPU cooling fan?

You've had 2 AIO's die on you thus far. So yes, I'd recommend not buying another one. Also, a 120mm AIO isn't really appropriate for a 10900K that draws 250-300W.

 

[Toolies]

Thanks for the reply Phaaze. I am not much of a PC gamer so I will have to do a little research on playing Minecraft without Curse Forge. Unfortunately I have to rely on my teenagers for the gaming stuff. Also, I have considered (and preferred) a 240mm AIO in the past but I feel like there isn't enough room with the location of the video card. Sounds like the 120mm just can't keep up. Pics below.

tennis2 - thanks for your comment. I agree. I seem to have poor luck with the AIO. That is what the prebuilt had installed so I have gone with that. I don't have much experience working with the more traditional, non-AIO CPU fan. Would it be as simple as just removing the AIO and installing the traditional CPU cooling fan? Thanks again.

 

[tennis2]

^ Are these pics of your actual system? That's not a 120mm AIO. That's a 240mm AIO. See how there's space for two 120mm fans to be attached to it? 2x120mm = 240mm.

If the pump on an AIO dies, it doesn't cycle water through the radiator. No water flow, no heat transfer. That would most certainly result in a sudden spike in temps.

 

[Toolies]

Thanks again for your reply and your assistance.

Yes. These are pics of my PC. My mistake on the AIO. I misspoke. I learned this last time and obviously didn't retain it well. I meant that I would have liked to have the 2 fans on the radiator. I am sorry for the misinformation.

Seems like anytime the AIO is pushed (gaming) it has trouble recovering and temps increase and stay between 70-80 deg C. I am not sure having an additional fan on the radiator would help with this issue. Again my understanding is basic. Seems a path forward will require another change in cooling equipment.

The following CPU fan has been recommended: https://www.newegg.com/deepcool-as500-plus/p/N82E16835856204

 

[Phaaze88]

I feel like there isn't enough room with the location of the video card. Sounds like the 120mm just can't keep up.

Not sure about that. It's probably similar to this:

View: https://youtu.be/10ERchM9Q6g?t=268
(saved at 4:28)

Then again, there is that solid glass panel at the front of the PC...

 

[tennis2]

Honestly I didn't read your previous forum, but there's a lot to unravel here.

To start, there are 3 points of failure on an AIO:

1. Pump dies. Water doesn't flow. Heat can't be moved to the radiator. If you're really astute, you may be able to feel the pump vibrating to confirm it's running. Or hold a paper towel tube to your ear and press it to the AIO pump.
2. Water dries up. Water is what carries the heat. No/less water, no/less heat transfer. This can be predicated by a bubbling-type noise when the water level gets too low and water is being pumped through/past air pockets in the tubing/rad/pump.
3. Fan(s) die. This is pretty obvious since you can visually see fan blades spinning.

Troubleshooting the existing AIO:

• 80C is probably right/good for a 10900K under load with a 240mm AIO. Like I said, it's drawing 250-300W.
• In the BIOS, set whatever header your pump cable is connected to 100%.
  • If you can maintain 80C under load, I'd wager the pump is working
• 50C at idle is probably right also, depending on fan rpm.
• Not sure what the 30C idle was previously. That's pretty near ambient temp (~23C).
  • If there's been a change in idle temp without any other hardware (fan speed or pump speed) variables changing, I'd be looking at whether there's a background process that's not allowing the CPU to truly idle.

 

[Phaaze88]

70-80C is probably right for a 10900K under load. Like I said, it's drawing 250-300W.

In Minecraft, a single core bound game... really?
Curse might be utilizing a couple more cores, but still... that much power?

 

[tennis2]

In Minecraft, a single core bound game... really?
Curse might be utilizing a couple more cores, but still... that much power?

Going to have to defer to the OP to use hardware monitoring tool (ie. HWinfo64) to tell us what the actual power draw is under specific testing scenarios. Also haven't been told what rpm the 3 fans attached to the rad are running at in this example. If they're at 1000rpm, that's good/normal I'd say. If they're at 2000rpm, clearly there's something wrong.

 

[drivinfast247]

The problem clearly isnt the cooler itself but how it's being used. You have a 240mm radiator with only a single fan. The other fan that's attached to the front of the case isn't controlled by the CPU temp. and probably not a high static pressure unit by design to boot. Either swap out the two front case fans for the radiator fans(and properly connect them to operate off of CPU temp or ditch the AIO and install a big a** air cooler.

 

[tennis2]

You have a 240mm radiator with only a single fan.
..The other fan that's attached to the front of the case
...the two front case fans

1 + 2 = 3 (last I checked)

The other fan that's attached to the front of the case isn't controlled by the CPU temp.

How do we know the 2 front fans aren't being controlled off the CPU temp? (honest question)

probably not a high static pressure unit by design to boot.

They're high enough static pressure. Especially since there's a [single] pull fan on the back of the rad.

Either swap out the two front case fans for the radiator fans

Unless some/any of the fans aren't working currently. This is unlikely to improve anything.

 

[tennis2]

Is the CPU still running at 5GHz all-core while idle like it was in the previous thread? Why?

 

[Toolies]

First off...thank you for the responses to my post.

There is a lot of information and questions to go through here and I will try my best to answer/provide information.

• Yes. The AIO is a 240mm with only one fan. This is how the unit was received. With my limited understanding, when I replaced the AIO I followed the same blueprint. There is not room for the second fan due to the location f the graphics card.
• The CPU temps ranging from 70-80 deg C occur when the PC is not under any load. There are no programs running (PC is not under load)and the CPU temps remain at that level, fluctuating at times into the upper 60's.
• Prior to both temperature events, CPU temps for the PC under no load were in the upper 20's to mid 30 deg C.
• There is a noticeable increase in the sound or hum of the fan - the fan is spinning with no other clicking or grinding noise
• I have also wondered about removing the one-piece glass front cover - there is a protective mesh behind it.

Here are some screen caps with additional info (taken under no load):

 

[tennis2]

Yeah, so your CPU isn't [properly] reducing frequency when idle. As your screenshots show, it's running at 4.9GHz drawing 115W while IDLE. That's the all-core boost limit. That's not what's supposed to happen. Is this something you've changed in the BIOS or software to disable speedstep?

See page 55-56 of the manual. I'm specifically suspect of the "CPU Ratio" settings on p55, and "CPU Ratio Mode" on p56
https://download.msi.com/archive/mnu_exe/mb/E7C75v1.1.pdf

Also noticing PL2 limit is 125W when the 10900K PL2 limit is 250W. Either that's a limit set by MSI for this board, or iBuyPower. Probably not good to exceed the current settings with the cooling issues.

 

[Mike2009]

i concur with @tennis2 about the all core at idle thing, but i will also add that the grinding noise you had going on is in line with faulty aio fluid clogging the lines and the pump too,,, Greg salazar (a pc tech youtuber) did a investigation on msi aios and i think an ibuypower one and found the pumps were getting clogged with this nasty clogging issue because the fluid from what i could tell was developing fungus in the lines and crevises,,, id look into that as well if the pump is mounted on the radiator its a good chance you might have one of the faulty units.

 

[Toolies]

Yeah, so your CPU isn't [properly] reducing frequency when idle. As your screenshots show, it's running at 4.9GHz drawing 115W while IDLE. That's the all-core boost limit. That's not what's supposed to happen. Is this something you've changed in the BIOS or software to disable speedstep?

See page 55-56 of the manual. I'm specifically suspect of the "CPU Ratio" settings on p55, and "CPU Ratio Mode" on p56
https://download.msi.com/archive/mnu_exe/mb/E7C75v1.1.pdf

Also noticing PL2 limit is 125W when the 10900K PL2 limit is 250W. Either that's a limit set by MSI for this board, or iBuyPower. Probably not good to exceed the current settings with the cooling issues.

I have not made any changes in the BIOS. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what I am doing in there. Any settings are going to be the factory default. I will take a look at the manual.

Is it fair to say that there may be more of an issue with the CPU that is causing the AIO to overwork? Just trying to understand all this information.

Thanks.

 

[Toolies]

i concur with @tennis2 about the all core at idle thing, but i will also add that the grinding noise you had going on is in line with faulty aio fluid clogging the lines and the pump too,,, Greg salazar (a pc tech youtuber) did a investigation on msi aios and i think an ibuypower one and found the pumps were getting clogged with this nasty clogging issue because the fluid from what i could tell was developing fungus in the lines and crevises,,, id look into that as well if the pump is mounted on the radiator its a good chance you might have one of the faulty units.

The first time I had this issue I did experience the grinding noise along with the high temps. When I removed he old AIO and opened it up it had a lot of gunk in it.

The AIO and fan seem to be running at a much higher RPM than usual with these high temps. I can hear more of a hum...very noticeable, but as of yet no grinding.

 

[tennis2]

https://www.newegg.com/deepcool-as500-plus/p/N82E16835856204
^Still an option. Only [common] point of failure there is the fans, which you can visually see spinning.

I don't know why the pump fan is reported as 0rpm in the screenshot (what speeds does HWinfo64 report?). But it seems unlikely that it's NOT spinning, since that should result in a much more dramatic temp increase than we're seeing here. I think this is tied to the CPU not throttling down when idle. We're now into tracking fan/pump wires to make sure they're connected and such.

Ultimately, the CPU is "idle" but it's not downclocking itself correctly and still drawing 115W while "idle" which needs to be dissipated. If you can get the idle frequency fixed, that would improve idle temps, but sustained load temps would be similar to what it is now. 75C isn't necessarily a bad thing while under load.

Again, these "was that, now this" situations are difficult to get to the bottom of since there's so many variables that can change. Even ones that the user may not be aware of.

 

[Phaaze88]

I have not made any changes in the BIOS... Any settings are going to be the factory default.

I think this is tied to the CPU not throttling down when idle.

Some Z-series motherboards have their auto OCs enabled by factory default. Looks like Msi calls it OC Genie.
Msi Dragon Center 'optimizes performance' via an overclock without asking for the user's permission, which is some bull.

Toolies, one of these 2 is overclocking your cpu, or possibly both.
Uninstalling Dragon Center would be my first recommendation.

 

[drivinfast247]

1 + 2 = 3 (last I checked)

How do we know the 2 front fans aren't being controlled off the CPU temp? (honest question)

They're high enough static pressure. Especially since there's a [single] pull fan on the back of the rad.

Unless some/any of the fans aren't working currently. This is unlikely to improve anything.

Lots of questions need to be answered.

 

[Toolies]

Some Z-series motherboards have their auto OCs enabled by factory default. Looks like Msi calls it OC Genie.
Msi Dragon Center 'optimizes performance' via an overclock without asking for the user's permission, which is some bull.

Toolies, one of these 2 is overclocking your cpu, or possibly both.
Uninstalling Dragon Center would be my first recommendation.

Does uninstalling under control panel do a complete removal or are there additional steps? Sorry for the noobish questions but I have been told conflicting information.

 

[Phaaze88]

Does uninstalling under control panel do a complete removal or are there additional steps? Sorry for the noobish questions but I have been told conflicting information.

I'm assuming you're talking about the 'residue' these programs leave behind, and someone told you about CCleaner to get rid of that.

You can uninstall under control panel. The program's files should have an uninstall executable as well. Even if it does leave some dirt behind, it's broken and won't work without all the other files.