Core i7-4770K: Haswell's Performance, Previewed

[ojas]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]FX was a huge change in architecture coming from Phenom II, Athlon II, and Sempron along with the Opteron variants, yet they managed to keep the same socket. What the type of change rather than how different they are seems more important for socket changing. For example, if Intel integrates any more of the motherboard's components into their CPUs such as the rest of the VRM and such, then sure, a socket change may be necessary. However, if Broadwell is merely a performance changer through a more differentiated architecture, then it could be no less compatible with Haswell's platforms than Ivy is with Sandy Bridge's platforms.[/citation]
I think it was supposed to be a radical overhaul of the GPU or something. Wait i'll just quote what Anand said...

Haswell builds on the same fundamental GPU architecture we saw in Ivy Bridge. We won't see a dramatic redesign/re-plumbing of the graphics hardware until Broadwell in 2014 (that one is going to be a big one).

page 12 of http://www.anandtech.com/show/6355/intels-haswell-architecture

I do agree with what you're saying, but it's just that what the motherboard manufacturers are saying is contradicting that slide, so i'm not sure what to think. On one hand, following the tick-tock model, Broadwell should be compatible with current generation boards, but on the other hand...we don't know whether there will be any LGA-compatible CPU at all. The slide says so, but can we trust it a year in advance? Can we trust mobo manufacturers this early either? I mean, Intel would have obviously wanted them to hush up.
[citation][nom]InvalidError[/nom]Even if Intel did not make standard-power Broadwells specifically for desktop, I doubt motherboard manufacturers would skip a whole product cycle only due to lack of socket.[/citation]
Hmmm...fair point. Though...i dunno. What you're saying does make sense, but...in my head it isn't coming together somehow. I mean, if the board fails, will they replace both the board AND the CPU? Intel will get a lot of working CPUs back, I'm not sure they'd like that. I'm guessing de-soldering and then resoldering CPUs isn't desirable (both from a cost stand point and convenience stand point).

They'd be better off using PGA, and well, they'd rather use LGA.

I'm not sure they'd be skipping a product cycle entirely, they'd still have to make boards for tablets and laptops. For the desktops, they'd continue to release 7-series boards, just higher end, or with some new featuers, ot nothing at all. After all, Intel won't abruptly stop selling Haswell chips, so the 7-series will still sell.

Anyway, i think we'll have to wait till Computex to get a better idea of what's going on. Someone needs to show Chris that slide, in the meanwhile...(I'm assuming he's not reading this thread anymore).

 

[InvalidError]

[citation][nom]ojas[/nom]Though...i dunno. What you're saying does make sense, but...in my head it isn't coming together somehow. I mean, if the board fails, will they replace both the board AND the CPU? Intel will get a lot of working CPUs back, I'm not sure they'd like that.[/citation]
How often do "boards fail" and how often is it the board itself and not ICs soldered to it?

With Broadwell:
- VRM integrated in the CPU package. If the VRM fails, the CPU is trashed.
- HDMI, DisplayPort and DVI port drivers are integrated in the CPU. If a port is fried, the CPU is shot
- IO Hub is integrated in the CPU package. If a USB, SATA or other port gets fried, the CPU is shot

With Broadwell, almost everything that can potentially go wrong on a conventional board with socket and chipset is integrated in the CPU. The motherboard is almost a passive backplane to expose IOs and deliver power, which should make motherboards much simpler and cheaper to manufacture due to much lower parts count and much simpler PCB layout.

As far as selling "higher-end 7x boards" goes, there isn't that much of a market for those since enthusiast are only a tiny slice of the market pie and the share of enthusiasts who would bother upgrading from their existing z77/z87 boards to "higher-end" versions of the same would likely be much smaller. Even enthusiasts who used to upgrade every ~2 years are starting to agree that there isn't anything really worth upgrading to more than once every 3-4 years anymore... many skipped Ivy Bridge and may choose to skip Haswell (and most likely BGAwell unless an LGA1150 variant without integrated IOHub materializes) too.

 

[ojas]

Well, this is what Chris says (had mailed him):

In addition to the motherboard guys, Intel was also quite clear at this year's CES that there won't be any LGA-based Broadwell parts, confirming what the board vendors have been saying. I'm not sure how authentic that slide is, but if there *does* turn out to be an LGA part, it'd be a more recent development than early January.

Based on what I've heard from the same board vendors, they believe Skylake will see a return to serviceable processors in the mainstream space. Broadwell is believed to be a temporary diversion as Intel focuses resources on catching up in the phone/tablet markets.

 

[jurassic1024]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

 

[blazorthon]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

IDK for sure, but if I was to place a bet, I'd bet on yes. I see no need to implement a new cooler mounting hole layout for desktop Haswell CPUs.

 

[ingtar33]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

IDK for sure, but if I was to place a bet, I'd bet on yes. I see no need to implement a new cooler mounting hole layout for desktop Haswell CPUs.

Intel has killed compatable cooler mounting before as well. No bets till its released.

 

[blazorthon]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

IDK for sure, but if I was to place a bet, I'd bet on yes. I see no need to implement a new cooler mounting hole layout for desktop Haswell CPUs.

Intel has killed compatable cooler mounting before as well. No bets till its released.

Yes, but with such similar socket sizes and other relevant specs? I just don't see much reason for it and the last time that Intel changed it for the mainstream was when they introduced LGA 1156. Also, waiting until it's released to make the bets totally ruins the point of bets. You don't bet on a horse after the race is over.

 

[Novuake]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

IDK for sure, but if I was to place a bet, I'd bet on yes. I see no need to implement a new cooler mounting hole layout for desktop Haswell CPUs.

Intel has killed compatable cooler mounting before as well. No bets till its released.

Yes, but with such similar socket sizes and other relevant specs? I just don't see much reason for it and the last time that Intel changed it for the mainstream was when they introduced LGA 1156. Also, waiting until it's released to make the bets totally ruins the point of bets. You don't bet on a horse after the race is over.

And besides, mounting brackets from larger cooler manufacturers if it is not compatible are not out of the question for a small fee...

 

[sarinaide]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

Noctua have already released Socket 1150 mounting brackets.

Some of the things I have heard;

1- 5-10% performance increase if you factor out inflations of numbers with it really being closer to 5% in general.
2- 4770K will cost $50 more than the 3770K.
3- Highest end GT2 parts around 15-20% faster than HD4000 but still slower than the aging HD6550D on Llano systems. Safe to say that this is nothing remotely close or in the same zipcode as trinity unless you are comparing to a A4 or low end A6 perhaps. Title dependent trinity's HD7660D is still around 15-25% faster, most titles the number is closer to that 25% mark.
4- Lower end GT2 and GT1 parts hopelessly slow.
5- Socket change.
6- Power consumption from what Ive heard is not a major improvement on ivybridge.

In short if you have a 3770K you won't be needing this at all.

 

[Novuake]

Will socket 1155/1156 coolers fit 1150?

Noctua have already released Socket 1150 mounting brackets.

Some of the things I have heard;

1- 5-10% performance increase if you factor out inflations of numbers with it really being closer to 5% in general.
2- 4770K will cost $50 more than the 3770K.
3- Highest end GT2 parts around 15-20% faster than HD4000 but still slower than the aging HD6550D on Llano systems. Safe to say that this is nothing remotely close or in the same zipcode as trinity unless you are comparing to a A4 or low end A6 perhaps. Title dependent trinity's HD7660D is still around 15-25% faster, most titles the number is closer to that 25% mark.
4- Lower end GT2 and GT1 parts hopelessly slow.
5- Socket change.
6- Power consumption from what Ive heard is not a major improvement on ivybridge.

In short if you have a 3770K you won't be needing this at all.

Although I agree with this. Haswell is a decent step towards Intels extreme low TDP BGA goal. Everything is starting to move on die. And that is good for them.

 

[mt2e]

13%, Intel...come on

 

[sarinaide]

13% on some applications and that is probably the added bandwidth. On general applications and gaming if you land yourself 5% you are doing well.

 

[ojas]

Agree with blazorthon on the mounting holes, but sarinaide, i'm not sure the $50 thing has much to it. Hasn't happened for the last two generations, doubt Intel would do that this time. What would be the point? I'm sure they know that people aren't going to rush and buy a 4770K over a 3770K. Creating a +$50 delta wouldn't be smart.

It would be $20 more for till black friday, perhaps, nothing more.

 

[plsft asfvw]

So, will Haswell PCs have the step change increase in battery life that Paul Otellini recently promised or not?

 

[ojas]

[citation][nom]plsft asfvw[/nom]So, will Haswell PCs have the step change increase in battery life that Paul Otellini recently promised or not?[/citation]
What? You mean stepped voltage/frequency control and all? Yes they do.

20x lower power consumption at idle? Yes they do.

Increased efficiency and thus battery life? Yup.

 

[frenzyvanrafi]

I think GT3 only available in BGA because Ultrabook needs graphic horsepower (as dediacted mobile GPU) without sacrificing power consumption. This scenario make GT3 based Ultrabook doesn't need dedicated mobile GPU which consume more power.

 

[hass34]

That 4770k will be a nice upgrade from my i7-930 ..I feel like I have been waiting forever

 

[Junoh315]

In short if you have a 3770K you won't be needing this at all.

I don't think that the 4770K will get you any kind of real performance over the 3770K. I don't know anyone who has maxed out one of these. I don't even know why someone would over-clock it since it comes powerful enough. I'll still over-clock mine when I get a new cooler but that's only when I need to.

 

[ojas]

[citation][nom]frenzyvanrafi[/nom]I think GT3 only available in BGA because Ultrabook needs graphic horsepower (as dediacted mobile GPU) without sacrificing power consumption. This scenario make GT3 based Ultrabook doesn't need dedicated mobile GPU which consume more power.[/citation]
Nope only -M and -H parts get GT3/3e, not ultrabooks.

http://techreport.com/news/24564/leaked-slides-reveal-haswell-graphics-options-for-mobile-cpus

http://chinese.vr-zone.com/56926/intel-hd-graphic-naming-rules-with-gt2-gt2-gt2-package-cache-memory-03252013/

 

[tipoo]

Does the GPU run at the base clock or the turbo boost clock most of the time in games? I'm curious because of the lower base clock of GT3 vs GT2 (200 and 400), but the turbo clock is about the same. The GT3 has double the execution resources, but if it runs at half the clock speed most of the time the performance gains would be lower. If it's always hitting turbo that's a different case, but then why call it turbo? And is the double performance claim for the GT3 with or without eDRAM?

 

[blazorthon]

Does the GPU run at the base clock or the turbo boost clock most of the time in games? I'm curious because of the lower base clock of GT3 vs GT2 (200 and 400), but the turbo clock is about the same. The GT3 has double the execution resources, but if it runs at half the clock speed most of the time the performance gains would be lower. If it's always hitting turbo that's a different case, but then why call it turbo? And is the double performance claim for the GT3 with or without eDRAM?

I thought that GT3 always has the eDRAM. Have you read otherwise?

 

[sarinaide]

I am sure all GT3 parts have the eDRAM crystal wall technology, only the lower end GT2 parts don't. That said if integrated graphics is your option there are better options.

I was quite surprised by the 1300mhz clocks on HD5000 parts, thats a seriously high clockrate, on a 5800k at 1200 you are starting to bottom out so 1300 is impressive on a tech level but ultimately its produce is a little meagre.

 

[ojas]

Um, no there's GT3 (HD5000/5100) and GT3e (HD5200).

Look at the VR-Zone link:
http://chinese.vr-zone.com/56926/intel-hd-graphic-naming-rules-with-gt2-gt2-gt2-package-cache-memory-03252013/

This has always been the case, though i can't remember where else to link to.

 

[masmotors]

ppl buying these chips dont care for igpu they have money for their nvidea cards they need to have a ipu less core i five and have it good priced i like amd fyi

 

[linkgx1]

For someone like me who is looking to build a new PC....should I wait or get an older gen processor?