CPU Overclock Suddenly Unstable: Prime 95 Stable - but Games Crash to Desktop!

[Ransome]

Hello.
My main specs:
OS: Windows 10 Pro 64bit
GPU: Asus 1080 Ti Strix OC Edition
CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K
MB: Asus Sabertooth Z77
RAM: 16GB G.Skill Ripjaw-X DDR3 1600MHz (XMP profile)
PSU: Corsair RM850i


I used a CPU overclock of:
XMP Profile
4.4GHz x44 multiplier
Voltage: Offset -0.005 or +0.005
LLC: Extreme

One day, after months of running smoothly and with good temps and gaming stability...
BOOM. Games start to crash to desktop consistently, frequently and fairly quickly.
Thought it's my GPU OC, so I tried setting to default and even closing MSI AB but it didn't help.

Tried upping the Voltage to +0.005. Worked...after a few days. BOOM not stable again.
OK so I tried +0.010. Same thing. Fixed...then after a few days it is suddenly not stable and inexplicably crashes.

Tried different voltages like +0.020 with LLC HIGH 50% instead of Ultra High. Worked for a week then one day stopped. Tried going back to OC that were stable before and it didn't work.

So I tried upping the voltage more but it only generates excessive voltage without real stability.

I also tried 4.3GHZ at -0.030 0.040 yesterday, with LLC HIGH - and it worked well - only to stop working this morning.

The way I test it is using Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition Benchmark.
It will almost always crash in the final stage's final seconds of the benchmark. Seemingly for no reason because the clocks and temps are flawless. (50s-60s C CPU temps).
Also tried to run The Witcher 3, stand in Novigrad crowded area and wait - it will CTD after a while.
Other benchmarks work without a crash:
Supervision, Valley and 3D Mark FireStrike & Spy Demo.
Games like Dishonored 2 might crash unexpectedly.

Everything used to be so smooth.
The PC is super clean - I cleaned it so freaking thoroughly a while ago and yesterday again.
Tried clean installing multiple Nvidia Drivers.
Tried Windows Memory Diagnostic tool
I don't understand what's wrong and it drives me crazy.
Been like that on and off for weeks. I can't properly Game when my games will CTD so often and so quickly.

 

[zebarjadi.raouf]

If you overvolt, yes you are fine. Trying to get the most performance out of the lowest voltage you need to test or you are going to end up in the same,place.

I don't understand what you mean here, can you be clearer?

He says undervolting requires extensive stress testing and not doing the tests would be asking for trouble.

So how do you figure out if you have it Under/Over-Volt? How do you even determine what's the base voltage?
If I leave the voltage at AUTO (default) - it will have EXCESSIVE Voltage (i.e overvolting). For instance, I remember trying 4.4ghz and 4.5ghz at Auto Voltage (stock voltage) and it jumped to 1.4; 1.5;1.6 or higher Vcores ! = BIOS was overvolting dangerously!
In other words Offset +0.005 and Auto are not 0.005 apart.

You're going at this the wrong way. No wonder you kept getting instability.

These numbers are hypothetical only:
Let's say your OC to 4.3GHz requires 1.300v on Auto. You use that as reference and manually start to lower it. You keep going and testing and you find 1.280v is unstable. You need 1.285v. Then you adjust adaptive/offset max voltage to be 1.285v. Doesn't matter if you +0.050 or -0.050. You adjust it to be the same.

I said it before, anything above stock voltage (auto) is overvolting, below it is undervolting. Some others may define it differently.

 

[Ransome]

So, with Realbench - should I just run the Benchmark for a few runs - or an hour maybe? Or run the stress for a set time?
When I select maximum physical memory (16GB RAM) it will close the app and won't start the Stress test. Benchmark works, and setting to 8GB also works.
I read it has something to do with the Pagefile. Which is currently set to auto managed in Windows.


So now that I got a (hopefully) stable OC - you suggest upping the Vcore by extra +0.005 (1 step) to be extra safe?

 

[bmockeg]

For realbench you can only use the RAM you have extra. If you have 16gb and using 6before running the test put 9. Round down to nearest whole.

 

[Ransome]

For realbench you can only use the RAM you have extra. If you have 16gb and using 6before running the test put 9. Round down to nearest whole.

Roger, so even though I'm barely using 1.8 when booting up Windows 10 (with no 3rd party programs running in the backgrounds, only Windows basic stuff) according to Task Manager's Performance tab and MSI AB - the next low I can use is 8GB.
So I've set it to 8 GB and running now a 1 hour stress test.
Yesterday I ran benchmark for 3 runs and it passed without crashes.
Does it suppose to report errors/issues somewhere- if OC is unstable?

 

[bmockeg]

Yep, you should be ok

 

[Ransome]

These numbers are hypothetical only:
Let's say your OC to 4.3GHz requires 1.300v on Auto. You use that as reference and manually start to lower it. You keep going and testing and you find 1.280v is unstable. You need 1.285v. Then you adjust adaptive/offset max voltage to be 1.285v. Doesn't matter if you +0.050 or -0.050. You adjust it to be the same.

I said it before, anything above stock voltage (auto) is overvolting, below it is undervolting. Some others may define it differently.

Okay so I actually got it right basically. I did skip the Manual fixed voltage step however.
Frankly, in most cases, any Manual/Offset Undertvolting from AUTO since AUTO always over-volts excessively.
For example: 4.3GHz gives 1.3Vcore+, 4.4GHz 1.4V+, 4.5GHz 1.5V+, and so forth. It's extremely excessive Over-Voltage for some bizarre reason.
I don't know why Asus/Intel allows such a thing - as it risks the CPU and extremely hot.
I assume this happens with modern CPUs and MB as well, right?

By the way I just checked, when setting 4.3 GHz at AUTO - it gives me around 1.308 Vcore after Vdroop in Small FFT (around 1.25 to well over 1300 Vcore). So I'm about ~0.090 Under-Volted for that matter.
(My load voltages are alternating: 1.240 ; 1.232 ; 1.224. 1.216 Vcore with Vdroop. Idle voltages are 0.984, 1.000~)

 

[Ransome]

Yep, you should be ok

Update:
Hey bmockeg - Just finished running the 1 hour Real Bench Stress Test - at 8GB RAM.
Stress Test PASSED. No crashes or errors reported inside RealBench. So it seems all good.
But, I got plenty of WHEA warnings in event viewer in a row, during that passed hour.
(Had MSI AB & CPUZ & Real Temp running).
Worth note that I ran several RealBench "Benchmarks" - with zero errors in Event Viewer.
RB description says Stress Test is even worse than Benchmark's Heavy Multitask test.
So I assume it's just too harsh a test and I can ignore it?

Just seems odd that other torture tests passed: Prime 95 Small FFTs, long Blend, several 1 hour OCCT runs, RealBench Benchmarks, and games like TW3 didn't report errors or crash. And even RealBench passed without reported error, fails or crashes.

 

[bmockeg]

You need more voltage if getting whea error

 

[zebarjadi.raouf]

But, I got plenty of WHEA warnings in event viewer in a row, during that passed hour.

Did you try increasing voltage very high just to see if you get errors again? Might be windows messing with you.

Prime 95 Small FFTs, long Blend, several 1 hour OCCT runs, RealBench Benchmarks, and games like TW3 didn't report errors or crash.

It's might be stable for now but as CPUs age they will need more, so it might not work several months later. Do it properly and save yourself from experiencing this headache again.

 

[Ransome]

Did you try increasing voltage very high just to see if you get errors again? Might be windows messing with you.

Not yet. I increased the Voltage by 0.005 from -0.010 to -0.005 Offset and ran another 1 hour RB Stress test.
It passed. Not errors, failed tests or stability issues reported by RealBench, and Event Viewer seems clean without WHEA.
The PC kinda crawled when trying to open other apps like EventViewer - but I guess it's normal during tortures.

It's might be stable for now but as CPUs age they will need more, so it might not work several months later. Do it properly and save yourself from experiencing this headache again.

Agreed. Evidently my last OCs turned out to be progressively unstable with time.

Think I should I add even more voltage and call it a day, how much do advise? (see results above).

My concern is that I obviously can't keep raising voltages forever, when you say the max is 1.30. At minus 0.005 I already reach 1.240 Vcore when load spikes. (1240/1232/1224...).
How much can I keep raising the Voltage or LLC before I cross the 1.3? That's why I started with Negative Offset.
What would have happened if I tried 4.4, 4.5 or 4.7 or even 4.8 like some people go for?
And did you see my last comment about Auto Voltages (stock settings) going way over 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 even ? Is this a known commonplace issue ?

Don't know if that's what "CPU Degrading" is, but It's funny, I read old threads from 2013 onward- where people talked about Ivy and Haswell - saying degrading is not a real issue, extremely minimal or not relevant for many years. Turns out they were wrong, as now you say CPU OC and stability - age and deteriorate over time and -periodically require extra voltages or lower clock multipliers (lower GHz) -to remain stable with time.

 

[zebarjadi.raouf]

It passed. Not errors, failed tests or stability issues reported by RealBench, and Event Viewer seems clean without WHEA.

That's good. You could add an extra 0.010v and call it a day. Should last long enough.

The PC kinda crawled when trying to open other apps like EventViewer - but I guess it's normal during tortures.

That's true. Takes a long time to do open anything because of CPU getting maxed.

What would have happened if I tried 4.4, 4.5 or 4.7 or even 4.8 like some people go for?

The quality of every chip is different. Your's might run 4.4GHz at 1.300v, another guy's 3570K might run 4.6GHz at 1.300v. So you have to test it yourself and be prepared to spend some time testing.

And did you see my last comment about Auto Voltages (stock settings) going way over 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 even ? Is this a known commonplace issue ?

It's happens but rarely. The thing is, manufacturers, overclock and test dozens of CPUs at every clock. Then they store the average voltage as stock voltage. If it's going that high, it means the average CPU needed that much. Also, after a certain points, you reach CPU's max potential and the CPU starts demanding much more voltage. I consider 1.0 GHz overclock (4.4GHz in your case), more than enough.
Could also be whacky BIOS going nuts.

Turns out they were wrong, as now you say CPU OC and stability - age and deteriorate over time and -periodically require extra voltages or lower clock multipliers (lower GHz) -to remain stable with time

CPU if taken care of, lasts for a long time with some luck involved. If you dig deep enough, you'll see some people running 1.450v with no problem for years, others changing CPU every now and then because of the degradation.
-------------------
BTW, why would you need that much CPU power? I'm pretty sure TW3 can't use that much.

 

[Ransome]

zebarjadi - thanks for the info.
By the way, what's your PC specs?
I don't play TW3 as much, since I finished it (but I still have the DLCs!). It's a good stress testing tool though. I used to play at 2K 980 SLI + Gsync 144hz, CPU @4.2ghz auto V. It has an amazing SLI support - and it ran very well!
But at 4K@60hz places like crowded cities can be demanding on CPU too. Especially Novigrad which can sometimes spike the CPU usage to 70-100%. CPU (and GPU) OC supposed to help a bit reducing bottleneck.
Still 4k and even 2K are mostly GPU focused - thankfully, and the game is remarkably well optimized. Unlike so many modern games. Heck, I might still play it at 2k 144hz for higher fps and smoothness.

Alright, status report:
Added extra 0.010 as recommended, for extra long term stability: raising from (Negative) -0.005v Offset to (Positive) +0.005v.
Ran RealBench again for 2 hours:
Vcore was at 1.232v which is slightly higher than Small FFT after Vdroop V (1.224v).
No crashes, failed runs or WHEA errors from Event Viewer.
Temps around 50s, later 60s and 70s when running so long. Max 73c, min 40. But that's without Air Conditioning, in a very hot humid summer day in Israel - in an old hot house; with my room at around: 30-32c degrees. With AC turned on at only 24-25c temps can go down 10c or even more!

I also did a full format + Clean Install of Windows 10 via USB, real quick.
Ran 'sfc /scannow':
Windows Resource Protection did not find any integrity violations. YAY!
DMC4SE benchmark- which usually crashed- now passed, with excellent results. Ran Superposition and Valley benchmarks- all good. Tg.
(Even after the clean install- lots of minor bothersome software bugs from Windows 10. This version & build of Windows is very buggy -with everything related to Settings, Privacy and Personalization, Lock Screen etc. (turn background apps off and they turn on. Windows Spotlight is completely broken and won't work. Lock screen resets or stuck. Privacy and notification settings flip randomly. Email app didn't work. etc. Turns out MS just don't do proper QA testing or fix those things).


Anyway, I think the system is fully stable and running strong!
Will need to start actual gaming and daily use - testing performance and stability as soon as I'm able !

Thank you everyone very much for all your help. Will update later how it checked out.

 

[zebarjadi.raouf]

Especially Novigrad which can sometimes spike the CPU usage to 70-100%. CPU (and GPU) OC supposed to help a bit reducing bottleneck.

I know SLI can be demanding on CPU but one 1080 Ti shouldn't do that. I get surprised everytime my CPU usage goes above 50%.

By the way, what's your PC specs?

You can hover over my pic. Found a good deal for 1060 6GB (200$) last week. I bought it, overclocked it, tortured it with everything I got, it passed. Ran Witcher 3 like a charm (1080p everything maxed and enabled except sharpening and blur, 50-70 FPS depending on the area).
Ran Resident Evil 7 at 120-140fps, didn't expect that. I unistalled it afterward. My heart can't handle another run of that game.

I don't play TW3 as much, since I finished it (but I still have the DLCs!)

I liked Olgierd personality. Can't say I regret buying the GOTY edition.

Temps around 50s, later 60s and 70s when running so long. Max 73c, min 40. But that's without Air Conditioning, in a very hot humid summer day in Israel - in an old hot house; with my room at around: 30-32c degrees. With AC turned on at only 24-25c temps can go down 10c or even more!

Winter is coming, what more can I say? Putting case near the window last year made me idle at 23c. Also, a max of 73c is very good.

Ran 'sfc /scannow':
Windows Resource Protection did not find any integrity violations. YAY!

DMC4SE benchmark- which usually crashed- now passed, with excellent results. Ran Superposition and Valley benchmarks- all good. Tg.

Nice that everything is getting a pass. I also bought Devil May Cry: HD Collection few months ago. Waiting for DMC5 (2019).

(Even after the clean install- lots of minor bothersome software bugs from Windows 10. This version & build of Windows is very buggy -with everything related to Settings, Privacy and Personalization, Lock Screen etc. (turn background apps off and they turn on. Windows Spotlight is completely broken and won't work. Lock screen resets or stuck. Privacy and notification settings flip randomly. Email app didn't work. etc. Turns out MS just don't do proper QA testing or fix those things).

Yeah, windows can do that. I personally keep an "essential" folder with every driver and software I use in install order. Helps immensely everytime I decide to reinstall windows. I should have my programmer friend write a command that automatically install them while I drink tea.

Thank you everyone very much for all your help. Will update later how it checked out.

Good luck.

 

[Ransome]

I know SLI can be demanding on CPU but one 1080 Ti shouldn't do that. I get surprised everytime my CPU usage goes above 50%.

Well, evidently it does. Maybe because it's 4K, tons of AI and details, and because 1080Ti pushes it up. It's also not an i7 which may have a factor. I noticed it will spike to 90-100% then after a few seconds relax and decrease to 70% - 90%. But I think only in places like Novigrad or a thick shadowy forests during bad weather - those will have a big drop in performance and increase CPU loads.
I actually don't remember SLI doing that, but I've never really bother to look at CPU usage back then. I really made the most out of my 980SLI during 2015-2016 with games like TW3 and MGS5 - which really utilized SLI's full potential. Then Games just stopped having proper SLI support- and I also starting getting into 4K, buying a 4K TV. So I bought the 1080Ti - BEFORE the prices went crazy (August 2017).
Anyway, right now at 4K most games won't cross the mid-range 40-60% CPU usage. Depending on the scene and the game. Dishonored 2 for instance, which is terribly badly optimized unfortunately - will usually fluctuate at 40-60% CPU load, but in the heavy areas, will cross that 60% mark to high 70-80%s.

You can hover over my pic. Found a good deal for 1060 6GB (200$) last week. I bought it, overclocked it, tortured it with everything I got, it passed. Ran Witcher 3 like a charm (1080p everything maxed and enabled except sharpening and blur, 50-70 FPS depending on the area).
Ran Resident Evil 7 at 120-140fps, didn't expect that. I reinstalled it afterward. My heart can't handle another run of that game.

Sounds great man. I Overall we have similar base specs. I wish I grabbed i7-3770K. Back then it wasn't important, and the difference was (and still is) very minimal between i5-3570K and i7-3770K. I explored the option to buy a used one from Ebay several times, but it always seemed way too costly and too much hassle.

I liked Olgierd personality. Can't say I regret buying the GOTY edition.

I still need to get into the DLCs. I finished TW3 after a very thorough single 500+hour playthrough, couple of years ago. After the very long, story driven, emotional adventure, especially with all the personal attachment to the story and characters - I found little motivation to start 2 long expansions. Especially ones that are essentially side-quests, without the same "high stakes" and personal connection to old friends and family. I mean nothing will be as captivating as a story about a father seeking and protecting his daughter, and fighting for his friends- those he hold dear. I rarely ever venture into DLCs. I heard great things about them, though.

Winter is coming, what more can I say? Putting case near the window last year made me idle at 23c. Also, a max of 73c is very good.

Yes, I just can't wait for winter lol! Good to hear that about max 73c being good! OH Seems part of my post got deleted: Meant to say that I ran RealBench again for 2 hours and Prime95 Small for 30 minutes. These temps are during that long RealBench, without AC in the middle of the day. So Max 73 is actually really reassuring, since I NEVER hit that kind of temps during normal Gaming. Only these crazy Torture Stress Tests produce such high temps. I think most games run at 40-50c (at most 60c~). Depending on the game and if I use AC.

Nice that everything is getting a pass. I also bought Devil May Cry: HD Collection few months ago. Waiting for DMC5 (2019).

YUP! Feels awesome to finally be able to breath easy again. Hopefully it will last- I STILL didn't sit to play a real lengthy Gaming session!
Wow so you too are a DMC fan? I'm super excited and rather anxious for DMC5. It's been a long 10+years wait. Gonna be 11 by the time it releases. Huge fan of DMC4. Played the hell our of DMC 4SE just recently, beating DMC mode - and it felt amazing. At 4K max settings this game looks fabulous. It aged so very well. Didn't get the HD Collection yet, what's you thoughts about it?

Good news: https://www.gamepur.com/news/29680-devil-may-cry-5-xbox-one-x-4k-60.html
"running at a native 4K resolution on Xbox One X while keeping the iconic 60 frames per second frame rate."
Everything I read so far - seems to suggest Devil May Cry 5's engine - the RE Engine latest build - is very well optimized in addition to looking amazing. DMC5 is the best looking and most promising game I've seen in E3 and Gamescom so far.
If it can run at native 4K and maintain solid 60 FPS at XB1X - it may be possible for me to run it at 4K 60fps too - on my current hardware. Without needing to buy & build a new PC next year. If I can postpone the new PC build for the future- then all the better. I'll get to save money, enjoy my current rig further, and get better bigger leap of performance when I do upgrade - to new tech & architectures. I'm still undecided when to upgrade.

Yeah, windows can do that. I personally keep an "essential" folder with every driver and software I use in install order. Helps immensely everytime I decide to reinstall windows. I should have my programmer friend write a command that automatically install them while I drink tea.

A script to install everything in order would be awesome! I've contemplated the idea many times. But I think it won't be practical or will somehow mess things up. I'll probably be too paranoid to trust it.
I also have a folder with the important stuff. But its files are regularly deleted. Biggest problem with making an "essential folder" is, well, the updates and versions. Nearly everything gets some updates occasionally. Drivers, applications etc. So everything that get updated, like: CCleaner, CPUz, Nvidia Drivers, Logitech Software - I just delete after installation. There's always a newer version. Save space too.

 

[zebarjadi.raouf]

Well, evidently it does. Maybe because it's 4K, tons of AI and details, and because 1080Ti pushes it up.

4K should lower CPU usage because you lower FPS. Try playing at lower resolution but much higher FPS (200), your CPU usage will increase. Also, some options like view distance affect it too. You can watch this to gain an idea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt5CNi0aEpI

I explored the option to buy a used one from Ebay several times, but it always seemed way too costly and too much hassle.

Yeah, you're better off buying an 8600K/8700K when it ages a little and prices drop as you don't have any CPU bottlenecks. 6 cores should last a long time (5+ years long like your CPU). Unfortunately, high-end GPUs prefer 3-4 upgrades. Some games benefit heavily from SSD too. Consider buying one if you don't use one.

I think most games run at 40-50c (at most 60c~).

That's cool (no pun intended ).

Wow so you too are a DMC fan?

I grew up playing PC games (any decent game before 2010, most games before 2005 ). Dante (DMC3) was my childhood hero (or any gamer I know, he was the cool guy we wanted to be). I also remember playing DMC4 with GT 9800 (1080 of that time).

Good news: https://www.gamepur.com/news/29680-devil-may-cry-5-xbox...
"running at a native 4K resolution on Xbox One X while keeping the iconic 60 frames per second frame rate."

Nice. Thanks for the info. I haven't been too active in gaming community anymore because of exams. (university beginning next week, RIP gaming, lol maybe not)

Biggest problem with making an "essential folder" is, well, the updates and versions

I don't update most of my stuff every time an update is released. Pretty sure IDM can download fine and Foxit reader open PDF without needing an updating every week. There are some free auto update softwares that update everything but I don't trust them.
But you can't go wrong with Microsoft Visual C++ and Directx. Older games refuse to run if you don't install them manually.

Save space too.

I can spare 10GB for essentials folder (Windows 10 bootable + some drives and software) if I can spare 50GB for some games. Damn, games used to be less than 1GB. They used be one CD.
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Overall, it's good that your PC is running fine. I know how frustrating it can be.