[Crawl] !oH, draining's effects on HP, etc.

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

I'm having trouble getting started with Thunderbird, and I think
aioe.org may be a bit slower in refreshing than GG-beta is, thus this
awkward cut-and-paste...

Andy wrote:
Erik Piper <e...@sky.cz> wrote:
>Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:

>> >The trouble with doing the Swamp [without poison resistance] is that
>> > >while poisoning can't really kill a character who's reached the
>> >mid levels or higher, confusion from swamp drake can. You used !oH
>> >to handle that difficulty, I bet.

>> Yes. My gladiator had to take your comments about "you're never
>> going to use them for anything else" with a grain of salt, but this
>> character's got them coming out his ears. It helped that bolt of
>> draining made swamp dragons turn and run after a couple of shots.

>I find !oH too weak to make a difference in a pinch, except as a means
>-- after CAREFUL consideration -- to avoid drinking !oHW in a crisis.
>So I'd like to hear more about your gladiator's experience -- I love
>learning new things.

* I'm not sure exactly what it was I was using them for with my
* gladiator, either.

Now I feel like I overstated things. Conserving !oHW is really no small
matter, in light of how relatively rare !oHW are. And they save your
behind during a confusion attack too. I guess the main thing is that
they're so common.

* I think the attrition rate due to cold attacks was a little
* higher (no amulet of stop potions shattering),

You've only got one neck anyway. ;-) I find limiting the amount of
valuables on your person at any one time to be a better defense (you
don't have to think about what amulet you're wearing).

* but no, I never find them
* useful for "one more hit will probably kill me, so I'd better chug !oH".

It (a use for the pure HP-healing aspect of a !oH) mainly happens in the
opening or at times when you need the power of a !oHW, but have multiple
rounds to provide it in. Or when you have lots of HP left and you'll be
teleporting away pretty soon (e.g. due to the yaktaur you sighted last
turn), but you want to hedge your bet in the meantime.

* I think I used most of my initial stash of !oHW rather earlier than I
* would've liked and had to grit my teeth and drink them on a couple of
* occasions (possibly after hasting--back up, chug, back up, chug, etc.).
* For whatever reason, in contrast to (seemingly) most other crawlies
* here, I never felt that I had a large supply of them.

It's mostly me, I think; I just talk enough to make up for 10 people. ;-)

>I'm embarrassed to ask (all I have to do to find a definite answer is
>get off my butt and examine the source) but -- at least your subjective
>impression would be interesting -- are you getting full experience for
>monsters you drain?

* I'm honestly not sure 🙂

* I've heard someone asking if bolt of draining is worthwhile since it
* does lower the XP gain, and sort of assumed that it did, but I haven't
* really worried about it. Most of the XP I would get from stuff killed
* with it tends to fall immediately into necromancy or conjuration, so
* it's hard to tell (I can't really be bothered to pay too much attention
* to the XP counter after about level 4).

* If I run into another hydra (I think they give somewhere around 1200 XP
* normally) I'll try to pay more attention and let you know 🙂

Found it! Yes, it lowers the reward. Negative-energy attacks are a
cocktail of raw damage, some extra current-hp reduction, max-hp
reduction, and hitdice reduction, and the latter 2 reduce the experience
reward as they fall. I have a hunch it's not a HUGE problem, though. But
then again, it *looks* like it should have a big impact on your XP
gains, since experience earned is based on (16 + monster's maximum hp) *
(monster hit dice ^2) / 10, and since monster hit dice tend to be in the
range from 1 to 10 (to be badder dan dat as a monster, you have to be
badder dan a dragon).

>> I suppose it's possible to get confused at an inopportune moment that
>> also involves a hydra,

>Yes. Oh my YES it is possible. ;-)

* In retrospect, I probably would've been better off wearing the -4 helmet
* I have that gives poison resistance (as well as -1 evasion) all the
* time, rather than just for eating,

Well, OTOH, a conjurerlike's main defense is preemptive destruction
anyway, so the real point is to not even give the swamp drakes a chance
to breathe. That's not always possible, though.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <d5ag9a$f1j$1@domitilla.aioe.org>,
Erik Piper <erNOikSP@skyAM.cz> wrote:
>I'm having trouble getting started with Thunderbird, and I think
>aioe.org may be a bit slower in refreshing than GG-beta is, thus this
>awkward cut-and-paste...
>
>Andy wrote:
>Erik Piper <e...@sky.cz> wrote:
> >Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:
>
>Now I feel like I overstated things. Conserving !oHW is really no small
>matter, in light of how relatively rare !oHW are. And they save your
>behind during a confusion attack too. I guess the main thing is that
>they're so common.

They certainly are that.

>* I think the attrition rate due to cold attacks was a little
>* higher (no amulet of stop potions shattering),
>
>You've only got one neck anyway. ;-) I find limiting the amount of
>valuables on your person at any one time to be a better defense (you
>don't have to think about what amulet you're wearing).

I agree, but I find it rare to have more than 5 !oHW at a time, and
that's been the threshhold I've used for caching. It seems like as soon
as I find a couple to get the stocks up, I go and do something dumb and
have them right back down again. I don't think the gladiator was being
particularly prompt about caching !oH, though, so that probably
contributed to the attrition.

>* I think I used most of my initial stash of !oHW rather earlier than I
>* would've liked and had to grit my teeth and drink them on a couple of
>* occasions (possibly after hasting--back up, chug, back up, chug, etc.).
>* For whatever reason, in contrast to (seemingly) most other crawlies
>* here, I never felt that I had a large supply of them.
>
>It's mostly me, I think; I just talk enough to make up for 10 people. ;-)

It's not obvious to me that there are more than 10 people that play
crawl, so perhaps it's for the better 🙂 🙂 🙂

[bolt of draining]
>Found it! Yes, it lowers the reward. Negative-energy attacks are a
>cocktail of raw damage, some extra current-hp reduction, max-hp
>reduction, and hitdice reduction, and the latter 2 reduce the experience
>reward as they fall. I have a hunch it's not a HUGE problem, though. But
>then again, it *looks* like it should have a big impact on your XP
>gains, since experience earned is based on (16 + monster's maximum hp) *
>(monster hit dice ^2) / 10, and since monster hit dice tend to be in the
>range from 1 to 10 (to be badder dan dat as a monster, you have to be
>badder dan a dragon).

Hmm. I've already killed two dragons with bolt of draining this game.
Perhaps that was part of why I was unimpressed with the rewards...
(does lowering their hit dice do anything to their current HP?)

Still, in the case of the dragons, it was far preferable to get no XP
than to have them kill me 🙂

[poison resistance in the swamp]
>* In retrospect, I probably would've been better off wearing the -4 helmet
>* I have that gives poison resistance (as well as -1 evasion) all the
>* time, rather than just for eating,
>
>Well, OTOH, a conjurerlike's main defense is preemptive destruction
>anyway, so the real point is to not even give the swamp drakes a chance
>to breathe. That's not always possible, though.

It's not obvious to me how, exactly, a necro is 'supposed' to be played.
Until you get Bolt of Draining, you simply don't have any conjurerlike
spells (which is not to say I haven't gotten a lot of mileage out of
Pain). I discount Bone Shards, though perhaps I ought not.

Win or lose, I think after I get done with this current character I'll
try to organize my thoughts on the subject. Is there 'conventional
wisdom'?

-Andrew ()

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:
> In article <d5ag9a$f1j$1@domitilla.aioe.org>,
> Erik Piper <erNOikSP@skyAM.cz> wrote:

>>* I think the attrition rate due to cold attacks was a little
>>* higher (no amulet of stop potions shattering),
>>
>>You've only got one neck anyway. ;-) I find limiting the amount of
>>valuables on your person at any one time to be a better defense (you
>>don't have to think about what amulet you're wearing).
>
>
> I agree, but I find it rare to have more than 5 !oHW at a time, and
> that's been the threshhold I've used for caching.

It's a topic for fuzzy logic, but I would 0.9 consider 5 !oHW in your
pack to be 2.5 too many. ;-) Note that besides the buffer against item
destruction, carrying less encourages you to think more about ways to
use them less, leaving them still around when you MUST use them.

[...]

> [bolt of draining]
>
>>Found it! Yes, it lowers the reward. Negative-energy attacks are a
>>cocktail of raw damage, some extra current-hp reduction, max-hp
>>reduction, and hitdice reduction, and the latter 2 reduce the experience
>>reward as they fall. I have a hunch it's not a HUGE problem, though. But
>>then again, it *looks* like it should have a big impact on your XP
>>gains, since experience earned is based on (16 + monster's maximum hp) *
>>(monster hit dice ^2) / 10, and since monster hit dice tend to be in the
>>range from 1 to 10 (to be badder dan dat as a monster, you have to be
>>badder dan a dragon).
>
>
> Hmm. I've already killed two dragons with bolt of draining this game.
> Perhaps that was part of why I was unimpressed with the rewards...
> (does lowering their hit dice do anything to their current HP?)

First, one correction. AFAIU (and if I don't, I am C-dumb indeed and
need a swift quick in the bootie), the HD drain (only) is actually a 20%
chance rather than a 100% one.

But HD != maxhp. Draining hitdice doesn't affect current HP. Draining
maxhp will, if current HP exceeds it.

> Still, in the case of the dragons, it was far preferable to get no XP
> than to have them kill me 🙂

🙂

> [poison resistance in the swamp]
>
>>* In retrospect, I probably would've been better off wearing the -4 helmet
>>* I have that gives poison resistance (as well as -1 evasion) all the
>>* time, rather than just for eating,
>>
>>Well, OTOH, a conjurerlike's main defense is preemptive destruction
>>anyway, so the real point is to not even give the swamp drakes a chance
>>to breathe. That's not always possible, though.
>
> It's not obvious to me how, exactly, a necro is 'supposed' to be played.
> Until you get Bolt of Draining, you simply don't have any conjurerlike
> spells (which is not to say I haven't gotten a lot of mileage out of
> Pain). I discount Bone Shards, though perhaps I ought not.

The trouble with Bone Shards is that you usually don't get it (assuming
you're doing the Kikky thing) until the Lair, and that's a long time to
go on Pain alone.

I've usually run necros with races that are slightly buffer than deep
elves (you're a deep elf, right?), and gradually transformed them into
Death Knights. As your AC/evasion grow, Vampiric Draining just keeps
getting better and better (until average monster HPs rise and obsolete
it again, but by that time you have other solutions).

> Win or lose, I think after I get done with this current character I'll
> try to organize my thoughts on the subject. Is there 'conventional
> wisdom'?

Crawl needs more players to have a broad body of conventional wisdom.
;-) But any matter of opinion where the same opinion is stated multiple
times from independent sources could be considered that, I guess.

Erik

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <d5dcpp$n2c$1@domitilla.aioe.org>,
Erik Piper <erNOikSP@skyAM.cz> wrote:
>Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:
>> In article <d5ag9a$f1j$1@domitilla.aioe.org>,
>> Erik Piper <erNOikSP@skyAM.cz> wrote:
>
>>>* I think the attrition rate due to cold attacks was a little
>>>* higher (no amulet of stop potions shattering),
>>>
>>>You've only got one neck anyway. ;-) I find limiting the amount of
>>>valuables on your person at any one time to be a better defense (you
>>>don't have to think about what amulet you're wearing).
>>
>> I agree, but I find it rare to have more than 5 !oHW at a time, and
>> that's been the threshhold I've used for caching.
>
>It's a topic for fuzzy logic, but I would 0.9 consider 5 !oHW in your
>pack to be 2.5 too many. ;-) Note that besides the buffer against item
>destruction, carrying less encourages you to think more about ways to
>use them less, leaving them still around when you MUST use them.

Hmm. Well, I can certainly start trying carrying fewer of them on my
person.

>> [bolt of draining]
>>
>>>Found it! Yes, it lowers the reward. Negative-energy attacks are a
>>>cocktail of raw damage, some extra current-hp reduction, max-hp
>>>reduction, and hitdice reduction, and the latter 2 reduce the experience
>>>reward as they fall. I have a hunch it's not a HUGE problem, though. But
>>>then again, it *looks* like it should have a big impact on your XP
>>>gains, since experience earned is based on (16 + monster's maximum hp) *
>>>(monster hit dice ^2) / 10, and since monster hit dice tend to be in the
>>>range from 1 to 10 (to be badder dan dat as a monster, you have to be
>>>badder dan a dragon).
>>
>> Hmm. I've already killed two dragons with bolt of draining this game.
>> Perhaps that was part of why I was unimpressed with the rewards...
>> (does lowering their hit dice do anything to their current HP?)
>
>First, one correction. AFAIU (and if I don't, I am C-dumb indeed and
>need a swift quick in the bootie), the HD drain (only) is actually a 20%
>chance rather than a 100% one.

Aha (I should actually go look it up myself). So hitting a dragon with
three or four BoD doesn't necessarily chop 40% of the XP off. That's
good to know.

>But HD != maxhp. Draining hitdice doesn't affect current HP. Draining
>maxhp will, if current HP exceeds it.

I'd ask what HD does affect once a monster has been created, but I
suspect the list is long and/or arcane.

>> It's not obvious to me how, exactly, a necro is 'supposed' to be played.
>> Until you get Bolt of Draining, you simply don't have any conjurerlike
>> spells (which is not to say I haven't gotten a lot of mileage out of
>> Pain). I discount Bone Shards, though perhaps I ought not.
>
>The trouble with Bone Shards is that you usually don't get it (assuming
>you're doing the Kikky thing) until the Lair, and that's a long time to
>go on Pain alone.
>
>I've usually run necros with races that are slightly buffer than deep
>elves (you're a deep elf, right?), and gradually transformed them into
>Death Knights. As your AC/evasion grow, Vampiric Draining just keeps
>getting better and better (until average monster HPs rise and obsolete
>it again, but by that time you have other solutions).

No, no, this is simply the next class in the series of playing-all-the-
classes-in-order, so I'm human. I've gotten quite a bit of mileage out
of vampiric draining, but have also done some melee, for better or for
worse (one level of "lose temper" seems to be a slightly mixed
blessing).

>> Win or lose, I think after I get done with this current character I'll
>> try to organize my thoughts on the subject. Is there 'conventional
>> wisdom'?
>
>Crawl needs more players to have a broad body of conventional wisdom.
>;-) But any matter of opinion where the same opinion is stated multiple
>times from independent sources could be considered that, I guess.

I guess my reluctance to go whole-hog for the death knight thing is: if
I wanted to play one, why didn't I choose a death knight to begin with?
🙂

-Andrew ()

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Andrew Patrick Schoonmaker wrote:
> In article <d5dcpp$n2c$1@domitilla.aioe.org>,
> Erik Piper <erNOikSP@skyAM.cz> wrote:
[etc.]

>>>[bolt of draining]

[...]

>>First, one correction. AFAIU (and if I don't, I am C-dumb indeed and
>>need a swift quick in the bootie), the HD drain (only) is actually a 20%
>>chance rather than a 100% one.
>
> Aha (I should actually go look it up myself). So hitting a dragon with
> three or four BoD doesn't necessarily chop 40% of the XP off. That's
> good to know.

Keep in mind that it's
(16 + monster's maximum hp) * (monster hit dice ^2) / 10 (plus numerous
adjustments), so maxhp is important too, though less so.

>>But HD != maxhp. Draining hitdice doesn't affect current HP. Draining
>>maxhp will, if current HP exceeds it.
>
> I'd ask what HD does affect once a monster has been created, but I
> suspect the list is long and/or arcane.

AFAIU the main time when it becomes important is for shapeshifters and
things you plan to polymorph -- their new, reduced HD mean the things
they can become will be less dangerous. I don't know of other ways it's
important, though I suspect they exist.

>>>It's not obvious to me how, exactly, a necro is 'supposed' to be played.
>>>Until you get Bolt of Draining, you simply don't have any conjurerlike
>>>spells (which is not to say I haven't gotten a lot of mileage out of
>>>Pain). I discount Bone Shards, though perhaps I ought not.
>>
>>The trouble with Bone Shards is that you usually don't get it (assuming
>>you're doing the Kikky thing) until the Lair, and that's a long time to
>>go on Pain alone.
>>
>>I've usually run necros with races that are slightly buffer than deep
>>elves (you're a deep elf, right?), and gradually transformed them into
>>Death Knights. As your AC/evasion grow, Vampiric Draining just keeps
>>getting better and better (until average monster HPs rise and obsolete
>>it again, but by that time you have other solutions).
>
> No, no, this is simply the next class in the series of playing-all-the-
> classes-in-order, so I'm human.

Not a bad race for the death-knight route; you're neither especially
wimpy nor especially rich in MP.

> I've gotten quite a bit of mileage out
> of vampiric draining, but have also done some melee, for better or for
> worse (one level of "lose temper" seems to be a slightly mixed
> blessing).

🙂 My Kenku could write whole books on that topic. 🙂

>>>Win or lose, I think after I get done with this current character I'll
>>>try to organize my thoughts on the subject. Is there 'conventional
>>>wisdom'?
>>
>>Crawl needs more players to have a broad body of conventional wisdom.
>>;-) But any matter of opinion where the same opinion is stated multiple
>>times from independent sources could be considered that, I guess.
>
> I guess my reluctance to go whole-hog for the death knight thing is: if
> I wanted to play one, why didn't I choose a death knight to begin with?
> 🙂

Reavers actually make *bad* reavers (conjurers and elementalists make
good ones), and death knights make *bad* death knights (necros and kikky
worshippers make good ones). Level 1 is far too early to be able to
afford to hybridize; the reaver and death knight approaches are quite
strong ones in the long term, but the reaver and death knight classes
are a ticket to lots of deaths on DL1.

Erik