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"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message news:<395snpF5sh9fsU1@individual.net>...
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 12:27:35 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:
> After the first couple of levels, I find spell point management to be a
> non-issue for fighter-mages, as long they do little or no conjuring -- the
> powerup spells simply don't eat enough spell points for that. (This may be
> because I scum so much XP into Spellcasting in the early game, though.)
Agreed.
> That leaves HP, prayer, and durations. Prayer first. Although I feel silly
> for repeating this in post after post, I guess it's relevant here: Ely is so
> good for Crusaders it's practically a no-brainer. (I have a suspicion the
> word "crusade" in his description is a pointed hint at this.) This is
> because, before you get an "oRS and at any time after that when you need to
> wear some other amulet, Ely can provide the most important function of an
> "oRS instead: his cheap Purification power cures post-berserk slowing.
But if you don't play Crusaders and/or doesn't worship Ely then things
get quite different. (See below.)
> Durations... well, it's not hard to tell when a spell has turned off, if
> that's what you mean. If you mean the trouble of keeping the most important
> stuff active, it kinda depends on what spells are important. Fire brand is a
> pain since it can't be renewed midstream; by midgame, though, you're not
> usually depending on it anyway. (I say strictly "fire brand," because it's
> the better, more conservative option in that it ensures you won't be left
> with no easy route for the Swamp if you never find a decent weapon of
> flaming. It does however have the downside that it hinders the development of
> Oz's Armour if you're a dodging Crusader.) Regeneration I don't play with
> much because of the Ely route; from my experience when using it with
> non-Crusaders, I find it to be something that you just let slide if it
> expires mid-battle, unless it's a multiple-waves sort of thing where you
> can't avoid a second wave, but you can prepare for it. Haste is something you
> cast only when your life depends on it, and generally the concern is to
> shorten it (i.e. make sure your "oRS isn't on), not lengthen it. Armoring and
> deflection spells are both, it seems, renewable midterm. For the odd
> shortblades crusaders, there's the annoyance of keeping Short Blade fresh
> (it's really short in duration, but stackable); generally, it's how I spent
> 1-turn breathers in my Halfling game. Berserk rage is, of course, the last
> thing you cast before charging off, if the situation demands Berserk Rage.
With my current character, a MeTM, I've had to constantly juggle Oz's
armour, Repel missiles and Blade hands. That the latter makes
spellcasting harder is an interesting complication. He didn't find
enough armour so he had to have Oz's armour active to survive melee
combat, and it tends to run out mid-combat fairly often. Add prayer to
that (I prefer Makhleb for my transmuters) and you have your hands
full. A turn spent for prayer or for renewing spells is a free turn
for the opposition, and if you're going with Makhleb, a turn where
you're (potentially) not getting any HP:s or MP:s back.
I had a couple of interesting situations in the Elven Halls when
adding Silence to the mix, especially since that means you can't cast
spells until Silence runs out, and when it does it means that those
unfriendly deep elves can cast their spells too.
> HP... with Ely and Berserk Rage, HP aren't usually a problem. 🙂
Neither with Makhleb.
> Lovecats the Elven Ballista
> (Level 25 Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)
<snip>
> Oh, you meant NORMAL fire elementalists, didn't you? 🙂
Preparing yourself for the bows patch, are you? 😉
> > The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
> > really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
> > guaranteed.
>
> Actually -- thinking of the healer you just ascended -- I think some healers
> start out with a quarterstaff, which, though a bad weapon in the grand scheme
> of things, is a fantastic starting weapon -- on my personal super-scientific
> "add accuracy to damage and fudge for speed and handedness" scale, it beats
> all other starting weapons, I think. But besides the theory, I find it a good
> early weapon in practice, too. Better for a fighter-mage than a fighter,
> though, and many races have no-brainer weapon choices that can be described
> in brief as "not a quarterstaff."
My healer ditched the quarterstaff the instant he found his first axe.
Decent early weapons can usually be found, but often I find myself
hunting for a better weapon in the early midgame, and not getting a
way of dishing out enough damage will kill you directly or indirectly.
It depends a lot on what weapon you want though; axes are common
enough if you can survive the orcish mines (but that can depend on
finding something better than a +0 hand axe - catch 22), and maces and
clubs are plenty. Swords or polearms aren't as common.
With most spellbooks you get a nice progression of spells, so it's
definitely not as big a problem for magic users.
> > Spellcasters are guaranteed more spells than they can use
> > if they go with Sif Muna, so they have the flexibility.
>
> I find Sif Muna a bit of a dead end -- so you get all the books, and... then
> what? Vehumet keeps on giving and giving and giving... as long as you know
> how to squeeze the most out of the random allotment of books you slowly
> accrue. If your starting book is good enough, it's not really a problem no
> matter what.
I'm not that fond of Sif Muna myself, just wanted to point out that
getting lots of spellbooks isn't a problem for a spellcaster. Compared
to say Okawaru you're guaranteed to get something useful fairly soon -
it doesn't take that long to get your first book, unlike getting a
nice weapon from Okawaru or Trog.
> > And from that comes the bigger opportunities for screwups.
>
> The biggest screwup with a mage is leaning on the keys, really. The closest
> thing to a real fighter I brought down to the endgame -- a Hill Orc Crusader
> -- could afford to accidentally stand next to something dangerous for several
> turns. A mage or ordinary fighter-mage can't.
I'm not sure if I agree. A mage usually have lot less hitpoints and
worse AC/EV, so mistakes tend to be fatal. And with more options you
need to think more about the alternatives. A pure fighter can just
wade in or run away, while a mage possibly has 10-15 different spells
to choose from, and different ways of using them, so the potential
actions aren't as clearcut as for the fighter. More decisions in Crawl
usually mean more opportunities for bad decisions.
I killed a nice GEAE who met a dragon by trying to use magic (I think
the fatal mistake was not knowing that dragons aren't confused by
Mephilitic cloud). Any sensible fighter (or sensible mage for that
matter) would have run away the instant he saw the dragon.
> A mage, unlike a fighter-mage, has to take care never to have too few MP for
> an escape. Not doing that was the source of the endgame pure-mage death.
Which illustrates my point: a mage has more opportunities for action,
but that comes at the cost of having to juggle more things than a
fighter. Fighters have drawbacks too: they might not even have a way
of escape if things aren't going their way (scrolls/potions can be
destroyed and wands are not guaranteed).
> > It cuts both ways: a mage
> > can (usually) deal with most things in some way or other, while a
> > fighter only can fight or run away. When faced with a monster than
> > they can handle they can only run away...
>
> ...unless they're cut off from the stairs, unlikely to land safely when
> teleporting, unable to teleport and/or slower than your nearby foes... then
> you can only die. Still, pure fighters are indeed pretty hot stuff in Crawl.
The dying part was implied when either choice doesn't cut it.
/Johan
"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message news:<395snpF5sh9fsU1@individual.net>...
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 12:27:35 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:
> After the first couple of levels, I find spell point management to be a
> non-issue for fighter-mages, as long they do little or no conjuring -- the
> powerup spells simply don't eat enough spell points for that. (This may be
> because I scum so much XP into Spellcasting in the early game, though.)
Agreed.
> That leaves HP, prayer, and durations. Prayer first. Although I feel silly
> for repeating this in post after post, I guess it's relevant here: Ely is so
> good for Crusaders it's practically a no-brainer. (I have a suspicion the
> word "crusade" in his description is a pointed hint at this.) This is
> because, before you get an "oRS and at any time after that when you need to
> wear some other amulet, Ely can provide the most important function of an
> "oRS instead: his cheap Purification power cures post-berserk slowing.
But if you don't play Crusaders and/or doesn't worship Ely then things
get quite different. (See below.)
> Durations... well, it's not hard to tell when a spell has turned off, if
> that's what you mean. If you mean the trouble of keeping the most important
> stuff active, it kinda depends on what spells are important. Fire brand is a
> pain since it can't be renewed midstream; by midgame, though, you're not
> usually depending on it anyway. (I say strictly "fire brand," because it's
> the better, more conservative option in that it ensures you won't be left
> with no easy route for the Swamp if you never find a decent weapon of
> flaming. It does however have the downside that it hinders the development of
> Oz's Armour if you're a dodging Crusader.) Regeneration I don't play with
> much because of the Ely route; from my experience when using it with
> non-Crusaders, I find it to be something that you just let slide if it
> expires mid-battle, unless it's a multiple-waves sort of thing where you
> can't avoid a second wave, but you can prepare for it. Haste is something you
> cast only when your life depends on it, and generally the concern is to
> shorten it (i.e. make sure your "oRS isn't on), not lengthen it. Armoring and
> deflection spells are both, it seems, renewable midterm. For the odd
> shortblades crusaders, there's the annoyance of keeping Short Blade fresh
> (it's really short in duration, but stackable); generally, it's how I spent
> 1-turn breathers in my Halfling game. Berserk rage is, of course, the last
> thing you cast before charging off, if the situation demands Berserk Rage.
With my current character, a MeTM, I've had to constantly juggle Oz's
armour, Repel missiles and Blade hands. That the latter makes
spellcasting harder is an interesting complication. He didn't find
enough armour so he had to have Oz's armour active to survive melee
combat, and it tends to run out mid-combat fairly often. Add prayer to
that (I prefer Makhleb for my transmuters) and you have your hands
full. A turn spent for prayer or for renewing spells is a free turn
for the opposition, and if you're going with Makhleb, a turn where
you're (potentially) not getting any HP:s or MP:s back.
I had a couple of interesting situations in the Elven Halls when
adding Silence to the mix, especially since that means you can't cast
spells until Silence runs out, and when it does it means that those
unfriendly deep elves can cast their spells too.
> HP... with Ely and Berserk Rage, HP aren't usually a problem. 🙂
Neither with Makhleb.
> Lovecats the Elven Ballista
> (Level 25 Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)
<snip>
> Oh, you meant NORMAL fire elementalists, didn't you? 🙂
Preparing yourself for the bows patch, are you? 😉
> > The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
> > really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
> > guaranteed.
>
> Actually -- thinking of the healer you just ascended -- I think some healers
> start out with a quarterstaff, which, though a bad weapon in the grand scheme
> of things, is a fantastic starting weapon -- on my personal super-scientific
> "add accuracy to damage and fudge for speed and handedness" scale, it beats
> all other starting weapons, I think. But besides the theory, I find it a good
> early weapon in practice, too. Better for a fighter-mage than a fighter,
> though, and many races have no-brainer weapon choices that can be described
> in brief as "not a quarterstaff."
My healer ditched the quarterstaff the instant he found his first axe.
Decent early weapons can usually be found, but often I find myself
hunting for a better weapon in the early midgame, and not getting a
way of dishing out enough damage will kill you directly or indirectly.
It depends a lot on what weapon you want though; axes are common
enough if you can survive the orcish mines (but that can depend on
finding something better than a +0 hand axe - catch 22), and maces and
clubs are plenty. Swords or polearms aren't as common.
With most spellbooks you get a nice progression of spells, so it's
definitely not as big a problem for magic users.
> > Spellcasters are guaranteed more spells than they can use
> > if they go with Sif Muna, so they have the flexibility.
>
> I find Sif Muna a bit of a dead end -- so you get all the books, and... then
> what? Vehumet keeps on giving and giving and giving... as long as you know
> how to squeeze the most out of the random allotment of books you slowly
> accrue. If your starting book is good enough, it's not really a problem no
> matter what.
I'm not that fond of Sif Muna myself, just wanted to point out that
getting lots of spellbooks isn't a problem for a spellcaster. Compared
to say Okawaru you're guaranteed to get something useful fairly soon -
it doesn't take that long to get your first book, unlike getting a
nice weapon from Okawaru or Trog.
> > And from that comes the bigger opportunities for screwups.
>
> The biggest screwup with a mage is leaning on the keys, really. The closest
> thing to a real fighter I brought down to the endgame -- a Hill Orc Crusader
> -- could afford to accidentally stand next to something dangerous for several
> turns. A mage or ordinary fighter-mage can't.
I'm not sure if I agree. A mage usually have lot less hitpoints and
worse AC/EV, so mistakes tend to be fatal. And with more options you
need to think more about the alternatives. A pure fighter can just
wade in or run away, while a mage possibly has 10-15 different spells
to choose from, and different ways of using them, so the potential
actions aren't as clearcut as for the fighter. More decisions in Crawl
usually mean more opportunities for bad decisions.
I killed a nice GEAE who met a dragon by trying to use magic (I think
the fatal mistake was not knowing that dragons aren't confused by
Mephilitic cloud). Any sensible fighter (or sensible mage for that
matter) would have run away the instant he saw the dragon.
> A mage, unlike a fighter-mage, has to take care never to have too few MP for
> an escape. Not doing that was the source of the endgame pure-mage death.
Which illustrates my point: a mage has more opportunities for action,
but that comes at the cost of having to juggle more things than a
fighter. Fighters have drawbacks too: they might not even have a way
of escape if things aren't going their way (scrolls/potions can be
destroyed and wands are not guaranteed).
> > It cuts both ways: a mage
> > can (usually) deal with most things in some way or other, while a
> > fighter only can fight or run away. When faced with a monster than
> > they can handle they can only run away...
>
> ...unless they're cut off from the stairs, unlikely to land safely when
> teleporting, unable to teleport and/or slower than your nearby foes... then
> you can only die. Still, pure fighters are indeed pretty hot stuff in Crawl.
The dying part was implied when either choice doesn't cut it.
/Johan
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