Cryorig's R5, C7 Copper Coolers At Computex

[Guest]

In addition to its Kickstarter case offering, Cryorig also announced a handful of new copper coolers at Computex 2017.



Cryorig's R5, C7 Copper Coolers At Computex : Read more

 

[Lucky_SLS]

i would say it will be worth it[right term would be "only viable cooling solution"] for those 10+ cores 4.5ghz turbo boost skylake X CPUs.

 

[Virtual_Singularity]

Excellent. Way to go Cryorig! They're one of the few companies in regards to air cooling that I've genuinely taken an interest in & I kind of wish I'd given more consideration to their coolers earlier.

 

[JamesSneed]

I doubt they will cool much better(1-2c) since the prior coolers used copper base plates already. They do look kinda steampunk though so I'm sure some will want just for the looks.

 

[Rookie_MIB]

I think they should offer some improvement, as while previous coolers use copper baseplates they only offer aluminum fins. Thus while the heat might transfer through copper better, once it hits the aluminum the heat transfer rate drops dramatically. The one thing that will need to be done though is make sure that there's a fan with sufficient flow to optimize for the higher heat. Because aluminum transfers heat slower, you actually have to have a slower fan so that the air has more time to absorb the heat by passing over the fins more slowly. With copper, and it's higher heat transfer rate, they might need a stronger fan for more airflow to get more heat out of the assembly. This could result in some higher noise levels, but if it performs at a higher rate it should be a worthwhile tradeoff.

The problem hits with pricing though, specifically watercooling. You can now get a Fractal Celsius S24 for $100 and it'll outperform most aircoolers by a wide margin. The copper coolers will need to land safely between high end aluminum air coolers and low-mid level water coolers to have a chance.

 

[dstarr3]

What we need is a Noctua L9i-killer. A heatsink and fan under 40mm in height, and can handle more than 65W TDP. I don't see any specs on the low-profile fan in photos here, but hopefully Cryorig can deliver. Because if someone could build that, almost regardless of expense, I'd pick it up in a heartbeat.

 

[JamesSneed]

I think they should offer some improvement, as while previous coolers use copper baseplates they only offer aluminum fins. Thus while the heat might transfer through copper better, once it hits the aluminum the heat transfer rate drops dramatically. The one thing that will need to be done though is make sure that there's a fan with sufficient flow to optimize for the higher heat. Because aluminum transfers heat slower, you actually have to have a slower fan so that the air has more time to absorb the heat by passing over the fins more slowly. With copper, and it's higher heat transfer rate, they might need a stronger fan for more airflow to get more heat out of the assembly. This could result in some higher noise levels, but if it performs at a higher rate it should be a worthwhile tradeoff.

The problem hits with pricing though, specifically watercooling. You can now get a Fractal Celsius S24 for $100 and it'll outperform most aircoolers by a wide margin. The copper coolers will need to land safely between high end aluminum air coolers and low-mid level water coolers to have a chance.

See this review from when Thermalright did the same thing. This is why I said 1-2c drop as that is what we have already seen when going from a copper base/heat pipe with aluminum fins to copper fins.

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2008/11/19/thermalright_ultra_extreme_copper_cpu_cooler_review/3

 

[Guest]

Copper transfers heat better, but also radiates it less than aluminium. That is why aluminium fins don't need as high speed fans, because they radiate faster than cooper, not because what RookieMib described.

The current copper base aluminium fins is the best design we have.

 

[Rookie_MIB]

See this review from when Thermalright did the same thing. This is why I said 1-2c drop as that is what we have already seen when going from a copper base/heat pipe with aluminum fins to copper fins.

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2008/11/19/thermalright_ultra_extreme_copper_cpu_cooler_review/3

Well, you are correct compared to some of the better coolers, but in that chart it also beats all the other coolers. Yes, by one or two degrees compared to the second best, but compared to the Intel Stock (overclocked) it destroyed it. Thus my point about price. If they can hit a reasonable price lower than water and split the difference between high end air and low end water, then it could be a good cooler to consider depending on your budget.

As always, best thing to do? Wait and see what price it comes out at and what the reviews say.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Copper transfers heat better, but also radiates it less than aluminium. That is why aluminium fins don't need as high speed fans, because they radiate faster than cooper, not because what RookieMib described.

When you say radiate, are you saying that aluminum actually radiates heat energy as EM radiation (infrared) more readily than copper? Do you have a source for that?

Otherwise, I don't see why aluminum would be better at dissipating heat to its surroundings than copper.

 

[JamesSneed]

Copper transfers heat better, but also radiates it less than aluminium. That is why aluminium fins don't need as high speed fans, because they radiate faster than cooper, not because what RookieMib described.

When you say radiate, are you saying that aluminum actually radiates heat energy as EM radiation (infrared) more readily than copper? Do you have a source for that?

Otherwise, I don't see why aluminum would be better at dissipating heat to its surroundings than copper.

Physics on TH. Copper has a lower specific heat capacity which means it will get hotter than aluminum faster but its because it is conducting more heat not because it isn't able to dissipate more heat. Copper will also dissipate heat faster as well due to the lower specific heat capacity which of course makes it more ideal for a heat sink. With that said copper is almost 3 times more dense than aluminum which is where the "aluminum dissipates heat faster" comes from if you compare the same sized copper "thing" vs same sized aluminum "thing". If you compare the same mass instead of physical size copper wins hands down. If they make the fins on the heat sink thinner so the mass of the copper is close to the aluminum the copper will win in conducting and dissipating heat but the fins are the most efficient part on the heat sink already so it wont impact CPU cooing that much(1-2c).

Specific Heat Capacity: How much heat a material can hold before it's temperature rises. This is directly proportional to thermal resistance. "Specific" because it refers to a certain amount of the material, hence making the numbers comparable. It's measured in Joules per degrees C. Lower is better.

Al(s) 0.89
Cu(s) 0.38

 

[Guest]

Copper transfers heat better, but also radiates it less than aluminium. That is why aluminium fins don't need as high speed fans, because they radiate faster than cooper, not because what RookieMib described.

When you say radiate, are you saying that aluminum actually radiates heat energy as EM radiation (infrared) more readily than copper? Do you have a source for that?

Otherwise, I don't see why aluminum would be better at dissipating heat to its surroundings than copper.

Yes. Put a sheet of aluminum foil and a sheet of copper foil in an oven to 400 F until the temperature is homogeneous. Turn off the oven and open the door, and wait a few seconds. You'll be able to grab the aluminum foil fine, the copper foil will burn you.

Or, don't believe me, and wait a few months for the reviews to come out, which will show it won't beat any of the good current designs, like noctua, which combine copper base with aluminum fins.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Spoiler

Copper transfers heat better, but also radiates it less than aluminium. That is why aluminium fins don't need as high speed fans, because they radiate faster than cooper, not because what RookieMib described.

When you say radiate, are you saying that aluminum actually radiates heat energy as EM radiation (infrared) more readily than copper? Do you have a source for that?

Otherwise, I don't see why aluminum would be better at dissipating heat to its surroundings than copper.

Yes. Put a sheet of aluminum foil and a sheet of copper foil in an oven to 400 F until the temperature is homogeneous. Turn off the oven and open the door, and wait a few seconds. You'll be able to grab the aluminum foil fine, the copper foil will burn you.

Just because the aluminum foil wouldn't burn you doesn't necessarily mean it's cooler than the copper foil. That could potentially be explained by fact that copper has higher volumetric heat capacity than aluminum, combined with the fact that copper foil is thicker than aluminum foil (from what I remember anyway). Means more energy in a given area of foil at the same temperature, which means more potential to burn you.

Not saying you're wrong, just haven't heard that before and am trying to understand it.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Physics on TH. Copper has a lower specific heat capacity which means it will get hotter than aluminum faster but its because it is conducting more heat not because it isn't able to dissipate more heat. Copper will also dissipate heat faster as well due to the lower specific heat capacity which of course makes it more ideal for a heat sink. With that said copper is almost 3 times more dense than aluminum which is where the "aluminum dissipates heat faster" comes from if you compare the same sized copper "thing" vs same sized aluminum "thing". If you compare the same mass instead of physical size copper wins hands down. If they make the fins on the heat sink thinner so the mass of the copper is close to the aluminum the copper will win in conducting and dissipating heat but the fins are the most efficient part on the heat sink already so it wont impact CPU cooing that much(1-2c).

Specific Heat Capacity: How much heat a material can hold before it's temperature rises. This is directly proportional to thermal resistance. "Specific" because it refers to a certain amount of the material, hence making the numbers comparable. It's measured in Joules per degrees C. Lower is better.

Al(s) 0.89
Cu(s) 0.38

This doesn't seem right to me, and I can't find anything about specific heat being proportional to thermal resistance. Let's look at the heat equation (in one dimension):
(p)(c)dT/dt - (k)d^2T/dx^2 = q
p is density, c is specific heat capacity (so p time c is volumetric heat capacity), k is thermal conductivity, q is heat flux, T is temp, t is time, x is distance.
According that equation, (specific) heat capacity only affects the time dependant portion (first term) of the equation. In other words, it only affects how long it takes to reach steady state. And I would argue that (pseudo) steady state performance is the most important case for a heatsink, representing it's ability to handle prolonged heavy load.
And intuitively to me, it seems like you'd want a high heat capacity for a good heatsink. That would allow the heatsink to handle higher power for short durations/low duty cycle without heating up too much.

Edit: I'll readily admit that I only have a fairly basic knowledge​ of thermodynamics, maybe I'm just out of my depth here and missing something, or making some wrong assumptions.

 

[Aflwdw]

I like the look of the aluminum models better, but I'm interested in the superior cooling performance these offer. Looking forward to some reviews!

 

[Guest]

Physics on TH. Copper has a lower specific heat capacity which means it will get hotter than aluminum faster but its because it is conducting more heat not because it isn't able to dissipate more heat. Copper will also dissipate heat faster as well due to the lower specific heat capacity which of course makes it more ideal for a heat sink. With that said copper is almost 3 times more dense than aluminum which is where the "aluminum dissipates heat faster" comes from if you compare the same sized copper "thing" vs same sized aluminum "thing". If you compare the same mass instead of physical size copper wins hands down. If they make the fins on the heat sink thinner so the mass of the copper is close to the aluminum the copper will win in conducting and dissipating heat but the fins are the most efficient part on the heat sink already so it wont impact CPU cooing that much(1-2c).

Specific Heat Capacity: How much heat a material can hold before it's temperature rises. This is directly proportional to thermal resistance. "Specific" because it refers to a certain amount of the material, hence making the numbers comparable. It's measured in Joules per degrees C. Lower is better.

Al(s) 0.89
Cu(s) 0.38

This doesn't seem right to me, and I can't find anything about specific heat being proportional to thermal resistance. Let's look at the heat equation (in one dimension):
(p)(c)dT/dt - (k)d^2T/dx^2 = q
p is density, c is specific heat capacity (so p time c is volumetric heat capacity), k is thermal conductivity, q is heat flux, T is temp, t is time, x is distance.
According that equation, (specific) heat capacity only affects the time dependant portion (first term) of the equation. In other words, it only affects how long it takes to reach steady state. And I would argue that (pseudo) steady state performance is the most important case for a heatsink, representing it's ability to handle prolonged heavy load.
And intuitively to me, it seems like you'd want a high heat capacity for a good heatsink. That would allow the heatsink to handle higher power for short durations/low duty cycle without heating up too much.

Edit: I'll readily admit that I only have a fairly basic knowledge​ of thermodynamics, maybe I'm just out of my depth here and missing something, or making some wrong assumptions.

There's nothing intuitive about thermodynamics. The equations are very hard and you're dealing with equations which have no deterministic solutions, only numerical approximation. There is a reason every heatsink has weird fan blade shapes and fin arrangements. We obviously haven't really figured out what we are doing.

In the end, I trust the designs by outstanding teams of engineers that have worked on the issue for decades. Such as the Noctua, which hasn't been beat in now 8-9 years. If you ask for the secret behind their design, obviously they aren't going to reveal all the detail, but it's quite clear that the combination of copper and aluminum was directly related to radiance.

Their decision to nickel plate the copper was also a radiance issue, since oxidized copper doesn't radiate well. And yeah that means as in radiate infrared waves out, which while I have no idea how much of an actual factor it plays, they definitely figured out.

Full copper coolers have existed in the past, and not delivered. The current designs we have are VERY sophisticated, the results of extremely clever people that have tested thousands of designs, configurations and materials.

The current use of aluminum fins in top of the line coolers is not primarily a cost saving measure consideration, it actually works better than copper fins.

Obviously all this discussion is no proof. The actual details are too complex. But simple "stores more heat, so releases more heat" type of logic fails when you're on page 3 of any book on the subject.

You want a small intro?

 

[Rookie_MIB]

It does make sense that a material that is denser would be able to absorb more heat, but it would also take longer to release that heat through air contact which isn't as efficient as water for example. However transfer through physical contact would be more efficient. So - having copper baseplate and pipes which can absorb changes in energy states better because it has more capacity would be good, and then having it physically connected to aluminum which radiates heat better seems like it would be the best compromise.

I'm guessing that the higher radiance of aluminum vs copper could be compensated for by having more surface area, but then you'd need more copper, more weight, higher speed fans, and more noise.

Overall, all these heatsinks are exercises in compromise between size, weight, noise, performance and cost. Those are a lot of balls to juggle and thus why we HAVE so many options in the first place.