[SOLVED] DDR3 vs DDR4

[hockeyfn2]

So, I've found myself in an odd position. I have found that my processor, (i7 4790k) chipset can't use a motherboard that supports dd4 ram.
Basically, my ram and hard drive are bottle necking my processor and graphics card, so I wanted to upgrade my very old ram that is 4x2 of ddr3 1333 ram to 2400 ddr3 8x2 of ram. Was wondering if my motherboard (Asrock h97m pro) was compatible (I did research, which it said it was), however I heard there was talk of like some motherboards being limited by the amount of mhz is acceptable? Not sure. Thanks in advance for the help

 

[Darkbreeze]

Unless you are overclocking the CPU, and even then you might run into issues, you will probably not be able to get a set of 2400mhz sticks to run at that speed on that motherboard. I'd stick to a 2 x8GB set of DDR3 1600mhz sticks. That is pretty much the standard without requiring an overclock or a lot of fiddling around, for that platform. Beyond 1600mhz it has been shown that for gaming there is little to no benefit anyhow on Haswell/Haswell refresh.

Your memory capacity, not the memory speed, is likely the biggest problem there when it comes to SOME performance issues.

Your hard drive is only holding you back when it comes to loading maps, levels and textures. Drive type and driver performance have no effect on FPS, but even so, switching to an SSD is usually a really good idea. Having an SSD for the operating system (Windows) AND another one for your game files, is an even better idea, so that you game files will live on fast media and map and level loading will be faster.

What is the model of your graphics card and power supply?

 

[hockeyfn2]

Unless you are overclocking the CPU, and even then you might run into issues, you will probably not be able to get a set of 2400mhz sticks to run at that speed on that motherboard. I'd stick to a 2 x8GB set of DDR3 1600mhz sticks. That is pretty much the standard without requiring an overclock or a lot of fiddling around, for that platform. Beyond 1600mhz it has been shown that for gaming there is little to no benefit anyhow on Haswell/Haswell refresh.

Your memory capacity, not the memory speed, is likely the biggest problem there when it comes to SOME performance issues.

Your hard drive is only holding you back when it comes to loading maps, levels and textures. Drive type and driver performance have no effect on FPS, but even so, switching to an SSD is usually a really good idea. Having an SSD for the operating system (Windows) AND another one for your game files, is an even better idea, so that you game files will live on fast media and map and level loading will be faster.

What is the model of your graphics card and power supply?

My graphics card is a r9 290x, I'm not exactly sure what my power supply is, I just know its bronze certified 650w. So do you think upgrading to 16 gb of ddr3 1600 would increase performance much? I find myself stuttering in some games and some people have told me its because my drive is bad... (my hard drive is like 500gb and very old, and is also almost always filled to the brim). I was probably gonna end up buying the ssd regardless, but was wondering if the ram would have any performance fixes

 

[Darkbreeze]

The only way the drive could affect performance, that I'm aware of, by causing stuttering, is if you were lacking in memory capacity and the system was offloading memory tasks to the hard drive. DDR 1600 will be a little faster, probably not enough to throw a party over, but having MORE memory might definitely be a big deal so yes, I'd probably put 2 x8GB of 1600mhz G.Skill or Corsair memory in there of some flavor.

This is probably about your best low cost quick fix, short of just upgrading the platform.

PCPartPicker Part List

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($68.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial BX500 960 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $168.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-27 13:54 EST-0500

That might not be the worst idea either because it really wouldn't be THAT much more expensive, and there'd be a moderately significant increase in performance compared to just adding memory.

It's gives you something to think about anyhow.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-4790K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600/2275vs3481

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($174.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard ($114.89 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($73.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial BX500 960 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $463.86
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-27 13:56 EST-0500

 

[hockeyfn2]

The only way the drive could affect performance, that I'm aware of, by causing stuttering, is if you were lacking in memory capacity and the system was offloading memory tasks to the hard drive. DDR 1600 will be a little faster, probably not enough to throw a party over, but having MORE memory might definitely be a big deal so yes, I'd probably put 2 x8GB of 1600mhz G.Skill or Corsair memory in there of some flavor.

This is probably about your best low cost quick fix, short of just upgrading the platform.

PCPartPicker Part List

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws X Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($68.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial BX500 960 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $168.98
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-27 13:54 EST-0500

That might not be the worst idea either because it really wouldn't be THAT much more expensive, and there'd be a moderately significant increase in performance compared to just adding memory.

It's gives you something to think about anyhow.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/Intel-i7-4790K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600/2275vs3481

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($174.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard ($114.89 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($73.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Crucial BX500 960 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $463.86
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-27 13:56 EST-0500

Wow, thanks for going through the time and actually setting all this up... I'll probably sell my current processor and just go ahead and get a new processor and motherboard! Thanks for the suggestion. Is that ssd you linked m.2 compatible?

 

[Darkbreeze]

No, and if you want to do the M.2 thing, which is fine, but go into it with realistic expectations, then certainly you could with a new board. The reason I say with realistic expectations is because aside from read speeds by programs and the OS, any transfer or write speeds are normally not going to be consistent with what you see advertised as the maximum sequential speeds for read and write. You'd need to be copying to AND from a drive with that kind of speed, so M.2 to M.2, to achieve anything like what they advertise.

Most operations are going to be random reads and writes by the OS or applications and those are generally going to be about the same IOPS as any other SATA SSD. M.2 is definitely fast WHEN the conditions are right, but that is seldom. Honestly it's not that often unless you have multiple M.2 or PCIe drives and are making sequential transfers of very large files. But, it certainly eliminates some clutter inside the case and there are certain circumstances where it IS very fast, and since the prices are not exorbitant like they used to be it's certainly a good option for some people. If money is tight, I'd forego the M.2 and just go with a good SATA SSD. Most people won't really notice the difference and for gaming it's not something that will have any significant impact.

But if you want to, you could do something like this.

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($174.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard ($114.89 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($73.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Intel 660p Series 1.02 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($119.00 @ Adorama)
Total: $482.87
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-28 00:13 EST-0500


And this platform will support even faster memory, so if you wished to spend 20-40 dollars more you could move up to a 3600mhz CL16 kit.

 

[hockeyfn2]

No, and if you want to do the M.2 thing, which is fine, but go into it with realistic expectations, then certainly you could with a new board. The reason I say with realistic expectations is because aside from read speeds by programs and the OS, any transfer or write speeds are normally not going to be consistent with what you see advertised as the maximum sequential speeds for read and write. You'd need to be copying to AND from a drive with that kind of speed, so M.2 to M.2, to achieve anything like what they advertise.

Most operations are going to be random reads and writes by the OS or applications and those are generally going to be about the same IOPS as any other SATA SSD. M.2 is definitely fast WHEN the conditions are right, but that is seldom. Honestly it's not that often unless you have multiple M.2 or PCIe drives and are making sequential transfers of very large files. But, it certainly eliminates some clutter inside the case and there are certain circumstances where it IS very fast, and since the prices are not exorbitant like they used to be it's certainly a good option for some people. If money is tight, I'd forego the M.2 and just go with a good SATA SSD. Most people won't really notice the difference and for gaming it's not something that will have any significant impact.

But if you want to, you could do something like this.

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 3.6 GHz 6-Core Processor ($174.99 @ B&H)
Motherboard: MSI B450 TOMAHAWK MAX ATX AM4 Motherboard ($114.89 @ B&H)
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($73.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Intel 660p Series 1.02 TB M.2-2280 NVME Solid State Drive ($119.00 @ Adorama)
Total: $482.87
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-02-28 00:13 EST-0500


And this platform will support even faster memory, so if you wished to spend 20-40 dollars more you could move up to a 3600mhz CL16 kit.

Alright, knowing that I probably wont worry about getting m.2. I'm probably gonna get all the parts you listed, however when I enter my current cpu cooler into pc part picker it says there may be compatibility issues with that motherboard. My current cpu cooler is this one. Would it work in that tomhawk motherboard? Thanks for all the help. https://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Maste...argid=aud-799711277694:pla-370498386465&psc=1

 

[Darkbreeze]

You have this cooler already? From a previous build? How long have you had it?

If you've had it for more than two or three years, then it probably does not have the AM4 mounting hardware like the same cooler sold currently does. So you get two choices. Get a better cooler OR try to find an AM4 adapter for it, which has become pretty much impossible to find. Cooler master was selling the adapter kits for a while there but I haven't seen them for a while and the last time I looked I couldn't find one anymore at all.

 

[hockeyfn2]

You have this cooler already? From a previous build? How long have you had it?

If you've had it for more than two or three years, then it probably does not have the AM4 mounting hardware like the same cooler sold currently does. So you get two choices. Get a better cooler OR try to find an AM4 adapter for it, which has become pretty much impossible to find. Cooler master was selling the adapter kits for a while there but I haven't seen them for a while and the last time I looked I couldn't find one anymore at all.

Yes, I already have the cooler from my previous pc build. I've probably had it around 2 years, it's been awhile so. I also heard the ryzen 5 3600 comes with a cooler of its own, though it may be not the best... How would I be able to identify if it has the AM4 mounting hardware? The way it was mounted before was on like a X metal formation that had separate pieces that screwed in under the motherboard, not sure if that helps. Also, another thing I should mention is on pcpartpicker it says how the bios may not support the ryzen 5 3600 without being updated first, which would require a separate processor as it says. Is that true or just some precautionary thing they have on pc part picker?
This is what the X formation looks like.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-9dd...12-S1_1__91391.1492681532.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on

 

[Darkbreeze]

The Tomahawk max comes with a BIOS that supports 3rd Gen Ryzen out of the box. The REGULAR Tomahawk would need to be updated first, IF it was a sample that had been sitting on a store shelf for a long time and didn't already have an updated BIOS. Since those BIOS were released about 10 months ago, most of those being sold now will have already been updated versions as well, but since you are looking at the Max version, it absolutely has BIOS support out of the box. It is still probably advisable that you check to see what version it has after you get the system running so you can update if there is a newer version than what it came with but that should be a consideration for after assembly and verification that the system will POST.

Fortunately, that motherboard comes with BIOS flashback, so if you needed to ever update the BIOS to gain CPU support, it supports doing so WITHOUT having a compatible CPU installed by putting the required firmware version on a flash drive, sticking it in the specific BIOS flashback USB port on the back of the motherboard and pressing the BIOS flashback button until the process initiates. There is specific information on doing so on the MSI website and on Youtube.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MifsQeaHUqw



As far as the CPU cooler is concerned, if you bought it new within the last two years, from a major retailer such as Amazon, Newegg, B&H Photo, Superbiiz or somebody like that, then there's a good chance it came with the AM4 compatible versoin of the X bracket and the correct AM4 standoffs. Otherwise, it probably didn't.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx0LUq1mjVo


https://store.coolermaster.com/us/amd-am4-upgrade-kit-rr-am4b-h212-s1-3

I'll be honest though, even the Deepcool Gammaxx 400, which costs around 20 bucks, and that's less than you can find the cooler kit for AM4 if you need it, has better performance than that 212 EVO.

I'd probably recommend that you just use the stock cooler for now unless you can determine that you have the correct adapter kit, ( which, does your cooler have a silver or black top on the heatsink?), until you can either determine for yourself that it is both noisy and does not perform very well which is what I will tell you about the stock cooler after having installed and compared several of them (Wraith spire) on that exact motherboard with that CPU and with two of the 3600x CPUs. It's got an obnoxious whine and pitch to it. It has a tonal hum that is just not present on coolers with larger fans. Personally I think almost anything with a 140mm fan that can do as well as the stock cooler with 1/4th the RPM and a much better job at anything over 1000rpm is much preferred but it is of course always a matter of an additional investment for a good cooler model.

Your 212 will do well enough, better than the stock unit, if you have the right adapter. If you have to get an adapter, it's worth simply getting another cooler.

 

[hockeyfn2]

The Tomahawk max comes with a BIOS that supports 3rd Gen Ryzen out of the box. The REGULAR Tomahawk would need to be updated first, IF it was a sample that had been sitting on a store shelf for a long time and didn't already have an updated BIOS. Since those BIOS were released about 10 months ago, most of those being sold now will have already been updated versions as well, but since you are looking at the Max version, it absolutely has BIOS support out of the box. It is still probably advisable that you check to see what version it has after you get the system running so you can update if there is a newer version than what it came with but that should be a consideration for after assembly and verification that the system will POST.

Fortunately, that motherboard comes with BIOS flashback, so if you needed to ever update the BIOS to gain CPU support, it supports doing so WITHOUT having a compatible CPU installed by putting the required firmware version on a flash drive, sticking it in the specific BIOS flashback USB port on the back of the motherboard and pressing the BIOS flashback button until the process initiates. There is specific information on doing so on the MSI website and on Youtube.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MifsQeaHUqw



As far as the CPU cooler is concerned, if you bought it new within the last two years, from a major retailer such as Amazon, Newegg, B&H Photo, Superbiiz or somebody like that, then there's a good chance it came with the AM4 compatible versoin of the X bracket and the correct AM4 standoffs. Otherwise, it probably didn't.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx0LUq1mjVo


https://store.coolermaster.com/us/amd-am4-upgrade-kit-rr-am4b-h212-s1-3

I'll be honest though, even the Deepcool Gammaxx 400, which costs around 20 bucks, and that's less than you can find the cooler kit for AM4 if you need it, has better performance than that 212 EVO.

I'd probably recommend that you just use the stock cooler for now unless you can determine that you have the correct adapter kit, ( which, does your cooler have a silver or black top on the heatsink?), until you can either determine for yourself that it is both noisy and does not perform very well which is what I will tell you about the stock cooler after having installed and compared several of them (Wraith spire) on that exact motherboard with that CPU and with two of the 3600x CPUs. It's got an obnoxious whine and pitch to it. It has a tonal hum that is just not present on coolers with larger fans. Personally I think almost anything with a 140mm fan that can do as well as the stock cooler with 1/4th the RPM and a much better job at anything over 1000rpm is much preferred but it is of course always a matter of an additional investment for a good cooler model.

Your 212 will do well enough, better than the stock unit, if you have the right adapter. If you have to get an adapter, it's worth simply getting another cooler.

So update, I got the pc up and working with the new parts in it. My cpu fan worked, with some maneuvering. There is one problem with the pc though, for some reason now it's having an issue that is very odd, I have to click my power button multiple times to start my computer now for some reason. When I tried looking for a fix online, everyone just said it was probably a problem with the powersupply, however I know this is not the case considering the powersupply worked fine on my last motherboard.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yeah, that doesn't mean much. Newer motherboards sometimes have different requirements, features and capabilities than older models. Your old Haswell for example had requirements that the power supply be compatible with a specific type of low power state, that had not been required prior to that generation of CPU. So "it worked with my old board" doesn't hold water, for that reason alone, much less the fact that your new hardware might have any number of newer technologies not supported well by an older power supply design.

I asked before for the PSU model and you were not sure, but I think it is time that you locate the decal on the side of the power supply and find the model number. Post that here or take a picture of the specifications decal on the PSU and post THAT here.

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[hockeyfn2]

Yeah, that doesn't mean much. Newer motherboards sometimes have different requirements, features and capabilities than older models. Your old Haswell for example had requirements that the power supply be compatible with a specific type of low power state, that had not been required prior to that generation of CPU. So "it worked with my old board" doesn't hold water, for that reason alone, much less the fact that your new hardware might have any number of newer technologies not supported well by an older power supply design.

I asked before for the PSU model and you were not sure, but I think it is time that you locate the decal on the side of the power supply and find the model number. Post that here or take a picture of the specifications decal on the PSU and post THAT here.

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https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-SuperNOVA-Modular-Warranty-110-B2-0750-VR/dp/B00KFAFRW6

This is my psu, It seems modern enough where I didn't think it'd have issues.

 

[Darkbreeze]

You're SURE it's the B2, and not the B1 or B3? For sure?

 

[hockeyfn2]

You're SURE it's the B2, and not the B1 or B3? For sure?

You're SURE it's the B2, and not the B1 or B3? For sure?

I'm 100% positive, It says so on both my actual power supply and in my amazon purchase history lol

 

[Darkbreeze]

Well then, that is a pretty good power supply. Not a top shelf unit, but a very good midstream model. My only question about it would be how old is it and how long you have had it in service because it's a model that hasn't been being manufactured for a number of years now.

I would double check that all your power connections coming from the front panel are properly connected on the motherboard as well. It's easy to accidentally switch the positive and negative leads and while that usually won't cause a problem for the power or reset buttons, I suppose it could given the right implementation. Or, if something was accidentally on the entirely wrong pin.

Also, make certain you have the latest motherboard BIOS version installed AND that you have gone to the AMD website and downloaded and installed the latest chipset drivers. Then, set the Windows power plan to Ryzen balanced and in the BIOS set Cool N Quiet to enabled, Core CPPC to enabled, CPPC preferred cores to enabled and Global C-states to enabled.

Also, disable hibernation in Windows.

To disable Hibernation:

1. The first step is to run the command prompt as administrator. In Windows 10, you can do this by right clicking on the start menu and clicking "Command Prompt (Admin)"
2. Type in "powercfg.exe /h off" without the quotes and press enter. If you typed it in correctly, the cursor will simply start at a new line asking for new input
3. Now just exit out of command prompt

 

[hockeyfn2]

Well then, that is a pretty good power supply. Not a top shelf unit, but a very good midstream model. My only question about it would be how old is it and how long you have had it in service because it's a model that hasn't been being manufactured for a number of years now.

I would double check that all your power connections coming from the front panel are properly connected on the motherboard as well. It's easy to accidentally switch the positive and negative leads and while that usually won't cause a problem for the power or reset buttons, I suppose it could given the right implementation. Or, if something was accidentally on the entirely wrong pin.

Also, make certain you have the latest motherboard BIOS version installed AND that you have gone to the AMD website and downloaded and installed the latest chipset drivers. Then, set the Windows power plan to Ryzen balanced and in the BIOS set Cool N Quiet to enabled, Core CPPC to enabled, CPPC preferred cores to enabled and Global C-states to enabled.

Also, disable hibernation in Windows.

To disable Hibernation:

1. The first step is to run the command prompt as administrator. In Windows 10, you can do this by right clicking on the start menu and clicking "Command Prompt (Admin)"
2. Type in "powercfg.exe /h off" without the quotes and press enter. If you typed it in correctly, the cursor will simply start at a new line asking for new input
3. Now just exit out of command prompt

I believe I've had the psu for around 3 years. I know the pins are in correctly into the motherboard, considering when it wasn't turning on initially I triple checked to make sure they were correct, and follow the motherboards manual. I honestly only was able to turn the pc on because I was just kinda spamming the power button out of frustration and it ended up working... The only thing that I was thinking could possibly be maybe its loose on the other side? For instance, not the pin that goes into the motherboard but actually the one that plugs directly into the button itself. Also admittedly I haven't downloaded the new bios software or the cpu's drivers yet, so I guess that will be a step to see, I assume they are online? I don't actually have a disk drive on my pc so I cant use the disk it came with...

 

[Darkbreeze]

Ok, try this.

With the power OFF and the PSU switched off on the back of the PSU ("0" position), disconnect the wiring coming from the power switch on the front of the case AT the motherboard. Flip the PSU switch back to the "I" position, known as on.

Take a flat bladed screwdriver or similar object and short the two pins that the power leads from the switch on the front of the case normally connect to for a second or two. See if the system powers on like it should. If it does, then the switch on the case is likely bad or going bad. These are replaceable switches which you can get on Amazon or Newegg, and elsewhere.

If it does not power on and off when you short the switch, as if you were normally pushing the power button, then the problem is likely something with the motherboard or power supply. At that point it would be good to disconnect ALL leads coming from the front of the case, and try it again, just to make sure one of those connections like the reset switch, isn't causing the problem, and try shorting the pwr pins again with those leads all disconnected.