Question ddr4 confusion

[js0478759]

hi guys,

this is a rant and a question, two in one.

whats an alternative to samsung M471A1K43BB0, which is the ddr4 i have installed currently? apparently thats an old product that is virtually impossible to get in europe anymore. all i need is to find an extra 8gb+ stick to top up my ram. i dont care about speed (at all, afaiu even the slowest is plenty for me) or efficiency (not much anyways, the laptop spends most of the time on charger). i need something that is safe, will play well with the ram i already have and wont fry my laptop in the process.

this should be so easy. and yet its a <Mod Edit> disaster. why do they think consumers should be wasting hours of their lives researching all this crap on the internet for something that should be as simple as putting a new silicone case on your phone.

i thought usb3 and [micro]sd were <Mod Edit>. now i realize thats nothing compared to ddr4. i get the pin issue, that seems fairly straight forward. but the rest of it, geez.

i dont care about all this mhz vs mts vs mbps nonsense. i dont want to understand what different voltage does to any of that.

folks made fun of wifi going the 5, 6 route, but at least thats something a regular person can understand easily.

p.s. iiuc whats on the net, the number of modules and their respective sizes inexplicably affects compatibility, too. so i have 3 of the aforementioned modules occupying 3/4 of my expansion slots. ideally, id just stick another one in the free slot without changing anything else, but if thats impossible, please, state that as well.

 

[siaan312]

hi guys,

this is a rant and a question, two in one.

whats an alternative to samsung M471A1K43BB0, which is the ddr4 i have installed currently? apparently thats an old product that is virtually impossible to get in europe anymore. all i need is to find an extra 8gb+ stick to top up my ram. i dont care about speed (at all, afaiu even the slowest is plenty for me) or efficiency (not much anyways, the laptop spends most of the time on charger). i need something that is safe, will play well with the ram i already have and wont fry my laptop in the process.

this should be so easy. and yet its a <Mod Edit> disaster. why do they think consumers should be wasting hours of their lives researching all this crap on the internet for something that should be as simple as putting a new silicone case on your phone.

i thought usb3 and [micro]sd were <Mod Edit>. now i realize thats nothing compared to ddr4. i get the pin issue, that seems fairly straight forward. but the rest of it, geez.

i dont care about all this mhz vs mts vs mbps nonsense. i dont want to understand what different voltage does to any of that.

folks made fun of wifi going the 5, 6 route, but at least thats something a regular person can understand easily.

p.s. iiuc whats on the net, the number of modules and their respective sizes inexplicably affects compatibility, too. so i have 3 of the aforementioned modules occupying 3/4 of my expansion slots. ideally, id just stick another one in the free slot without changing anything else, but if thats impossible, please, state that as well.

I don't understand your rant

What pin difference? and what should be "as simple as putting a new silicone case on your phone."?

There are 5 types of memory, only 1 of which you should care about and will put in your laptop, which is normal ddr4 (the others are say, ecc, registered, or whatever)
There are 2 sizes of ram, dimm, and sodimm. SODIMM go in laptops.

Your laptop should have a stick of sodimm, normal ddr4 memory.
If you mix and match 2 different sticks it might not work, but there's no real way to check that unless you actually try it.
What I would suggest is just buying 2 identical sodimms (or just a 8x2 kit I guess) if you want a seamless, will 100% work ram.
If you don't care about the speed you get, just go to amazon.com or any store and search for 8x2 kit.

EDIT:
I just noticed your last comment stating you have 3 of 4 slots occupied, do you have 3 slots, with 8 gigs totaling 24?

 

[js0478759]

I don't understand your rant

What pin difference? and what should be "as simple as putting a new silicone case on your phone."?

There are 5 types of memory, only 1 of which you should care about and will put in your laptop, which is normal ddr4 (the others are say, ecc, registered, or whatever)
There are 2 sizes of ram, dimm, and sodimm. SODIMM go in laptops.

Your laptop should have a stick of sodimm, normal ddr4 memory.
If you mix and match 2 different sticks it might not work, but there's no real way to check that unless you actually try it.
What I would suggest is just buying 2 identical sodimms (or just a 8x2 kit I guess) if you want a seamless, will 100% work ram.
If you don't care about the speed you get, just go to amazon.com or any store and search for 8x2 kit.

EDIT:
I just noticed your last comment stating you have 3 of 4 slots occupied, do you have 3 slots, with 8 gigs totaling 24?

yes, according to samsung mine are 260pin modules.

buying additional ram should be as simple as putting a new case on your phone. it should never require completing an unnecessary postgrad engineering course.

not being able to mix is exactly my problem, that is the crux of my rant. every other ram upgrade article/post on the net comes with countless warnings of how different modules from the same manufacturer will make your system unstable/unusable or fry it altogether. let alone mixing modules from different mfgs, different generations, production nodes etc. none of that should be happening.

compare that to ssds, which essentially is the exact same product in a slightly different packaging. you only have two things that you absolutely have to pay attention to. sata vs. nvme (yes, im aware of different pin size nvmes, but again - thats straightforward). and none of that is capable of making your system unstable, let alone frying it completely. everything else is gravy, that you could safely ignore if youd be so inclined.

yes, id love to buy the exact same module. i said that explicitly in my og post. unfortunately, i cannot do that because samsung has either stopped producing them altogether or refuses to supply them to europe. i dont really care either way. the bottom line for me is the fact that i cannot go on amazon and buy them. and importing this stuff from america (which you suggested) is a non-starter. which i why i need suggestions on safe alternatives to this specific samsung module.

yes, your calculation is correct.

 

[USAFRet]

yes, according to samsung mine are 260pin modules.

buying additional ram should be as simple as putting a new case on your phone. it should never require completing an unnecessary postgrad engineering course.

not being able to mix is exactly my problem, that is the crux of my rant. every other ram upgrade article/post on the net comes with countless warnings of how different modules from the same manufacturer will make your system unstable/unusable or fry it altogether. let alone mixing modules from different mfgs, different generations, production nodes etc. none of that should be happening.

compare that to ssds, which essentially is the exact same product in a slightly different packaging. you only have two things that you absolutely have to pay attention to. sata vs. nvme (yes, im aware of different pin size nvmes, but again - thats straightforward). and none of that is capable of making your system unstable, let alone frying it completely. everything else is gravy, that you could safely ignore if youd be so inclined.

yes, id love to buy the exact same module. i said that explicitly in my og post. unfortunately, i cannot do that because samsung has either stopped producing them altogether or refuses to supply them to europe. i dont really care either way. the bottom line for me is the fact that i cannot go on amazon and buy them. and importing this stuff from america (which you suggested) is a non-starter. which i why i need suggestions on safe alternatives to this specific samsung module.

yes, your calculation is correct.

No.
Mixing RAM is NOT as easy as putting on a new phone case.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.
We'd all like RAM to be 100% universal, between speeds, models, brands.
But it is not.

Such is life.

 

[js0478759]

No.
Mixing RAM is NOT as easy as putting on a new phone case.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails.
We'd all like RAM to be 100% universal, between speeds, models, brands.
But it is not.

Such is life.

who are you disagreeing with here? i know it aint, hence my rant.

how is your comment helping me find an alternative that i asked for?

 

[USAFRet]

who are you disagreeing with here? i know it aint, hence my rant.

how is your comment helping me find an alternative that i asked for?

Go here:
https://www.crucial.com/store/advisor

 

[js0478759]

Go here:
https://www.crucial.com/store/advisor

ok, please, point out where crucial answers my essential requirement i stated twice before: i need something that is safe, will play well with the ram i already have and wont fry my laptop in the process.

 

[USAFRet]

ok, please, point out where crucial answers my essential requirement i stated twice before: i need something that is safe, will play well with the ram i already have and wont fry my laptop in the process.

It recommends what RAM is compatible with your device.

What specific laptop is it?

Worst case, you buy a full set of what IS available, and ditch/sell what you currently have.

 

[js0478759]

It recommends what RAM is compatible with your device.

What specific laptop is it?

Worst case, you buy a full set of what IS available, and ditch/sell what you currently have.

well, i do fear i might need to get rid of the ram i have and replace it with new modules. id rather avoid that, tho. hence my coming here.

my current modules are working perfectly fine. neither i, nor the planet needs more ewaste. and i have neither the time, nor patience to sell anything off. my laptop is a tool, not a toy to me, ive no desire to futz about with it.

laptops rog g752vt-dh74, although i struggle to see, what difference that makes.

 

[siaan312]

yes, according to samsung mine are 260pin modules.

buying additional ram should be as simple as putting a new case on your phone. it should never require completing an unnecessary postgrad engineering course.

not being able to mix is exactly my problem, that is the crux of my rant. every other ram upgrade article/post on the net comes with countless warnings of how different modules from the same manufacturer will make your system unstable/unusable or fry it altogether. let alone mixing modules from different mfgs, different generations, production nodes etc. none of that should be happening.

compare that to ssds, which essentially is the exact same product in a slightly different packaging. you only have two things that you absolutely have to pay attention to. sata vs. nvme (yes, im aware of different pin size nvmes, but again - thats straightforward). and none of that is capable of making your system unstable, let alone frying it completely. everything else is gravy, that you could safely ignore if youd be so inclined.

yes, id love to buy the exact same module. i said that explicitly in my og post. unfortunately, i cannot do that because samsung has either stopped producing them altogether or refuses to supply them to europe. i dont really care either way. the bottom line for me is the fact that i cannot go on amazon and buy them. and importing this stuff from america (which you suggested) is a non-starter. which i why i need suggestions on safe alternatives to this specific samsung module.

yes, your calculation is correct.

Do you change the ram on your phone..?
Probably not. Sadly, mixing and matching ram does not work and the main reason is that ram is so fast, it is extremely sensitive. the ram needs to match perfectly to in harmony enough so that the memory controller won't be like: hey wtf whats this fil- wait no its coming from the other module too?? then, blue screen. or in worse cases, not even getting to that and totally not booting.

Like I said before, you can try another stick of ram, but there is no guarente it will work.

 

[js0478759]

Do you change the ram on your phone..?
Probably not. Sadly, mixing and matching ram does not work and the main reason is that ram is so fast, it is extremely sensitive. the ram needs to match perfectly to in harmony enough so that the memory controller won't be like: hey wtf whats this fil- wait no its coming from the other module too?? then, blue screen. or in worse cases, not even getting to that and totally not booting.

Like I said before, you can try another stick of ram, but there is no guarente it will work.

please dont make silly excuses for idiotic shortcomings of the industry run by sociopaths with no people skills.

yes, unfortunately i cannot add ram to my phone. because those asshats intentionally precluded me from doing so. there is absolutely no technical reason it shouldnt/wouldnt be possible. and speed is utterly irrelevant. im not building a collider using bespoke components/architecture. these are off the shelf components manufactured in their billions on a yearly basis. there is no excuse for this abhorrent state of the matter.

similarly to how no cable should be able to fry your device, let alone burning your house down in the process. regulators really have to step in and start issuing multibillion dollar fines asap, preferably multihundred billion ones.

p.s. as to why your excuse is silly. imagine a toaster that burned your house down every time you used a slightly different type of bread. sticking in a poptart would inevitably result in a nuclear explosion. would you make excuses for that as well?

 

[Deleted member 14196]

Like it or not. That’s how it is. Ranting doesn’t solve anything or make you feel better

In any case it won’t fry your motherboard it just won’t work properly

 

[js0478759]

Like it or not. That’s how it is. Ranting doesn’t solve anything or make you feel better

In any case it won’t fry your motherboard it just won’t work properly

ranting does make me feel better. pointless comments by people who need to impose their world view on others do not. if everybody thought they way you do and made excuses for every abominable thing in society wed still be stuck in cages.

according to majority of articles/posts/reviews/tests done by paid specialists it absolutely has the potential to fry the laptop. i'll take that over unsubstantiated claims on a random forum.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

Well have fun you certainly like to crab your way about. You’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Don’t bother with your acid replies. Ignoring

 

[js0478759]

Well have fun you certainly like to crab your way about. You’ll catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Don’t bother with your acid replies. Ignoring

i couldnt care less about pleasing somebody that feels the need to impose his wrong worldview on others. i do put them in their place, tho. thats the only way progress works in human society.

 

[siaan312]

pointless comments by people who need to impose their world view on others do not.

That's very hypocritical.

according to majority of articles/posts/reviews/tests done by paid specialists it absolutely has the potential to fry the laptop. i'll take that over unsubstantiated claims on a random forum.

That's just not true.
believe me "a random stranger on a random forum" or not, I have a bit of experience building pcs both employed and for fun, and I have done lots of janky stuff, and not once has a pc or laptop died on me from incompatible memory.

please dont make silly excuses for idiotic shortcomings of the industry run by sociopaths with no people skills.

yes, unfortunately i cannot add ram to my phone. because those asshats intentionally precluded me from doing so. there is absolutely no technical reason it shouldnt/wouldnt be possible. and speed is utterly irrelevant. im not building a collider using bespoke components/architecture. these are off the shelf components manufactured in their billions on a yearly basis. there is no excuse for this abhorrent state of the matter.

similarly to how no cable should be able to fry your device, let alone burning your house down in the process. regulators really have to step in and start issuing multibillion dollar fines asap, preferably multihundred billion ones.

p.s. as to why your excuse is silly. imagine a toaster that burned your house down every time you used a slightly different type of bread. sticking in a poptart would inevitably result in a nuclear explosion. would you make excuses for that as well?

I have no idea what you are talking about, making excuses for "idiotic shortcomings of the industry run by sociopaths with no people skills"
I wasn't making excuses, I just gave the simplified answer for an extremely complicated answer that the "sociopaths with no people skills" are trying to convey.
The reason you can't put more ram in your phone, is because phones usually have an SOC, or system on a chip, which has integrated gpu cpu ram and memory all soldered to it.
Phones are also water tight in recent years, making more ports on the phone, or taking them apart more complicated, dangerous for the longevity on the phone, and just a less do-able operation.

I'm not saying it's impossible for a company to make a phone with upgradeable ram, it's just, not something super necessary for the average user, and will have lots of sacrifices in other parts, either in cost, complexity, water protection, and/or lots of other departments.

Speed is not irrelevant, it does matter. why does a light bulb flicker when it gets unstable power (it's designed to get 50/60 hz, depending on the region, and if it doesn't it dies prematurely, or flickers)
Memory runs on hz, which as memory gets faster and faster, becomes more and more sensitive to interference.
Try to design a motherboard, and run the traces to the ram yourself, It's hard, complicated and requires a butt ton of math.

As for your original question, again, you can try mixing and matching ram, worst case scenario, it doesn't work.
Best case it works.
medium case, it kinda works but crashes.

Those are the only 3 options, thank you, and stop being a hypocritical, delusional, tin-foil hat conspiracy lover.

 

[USAFRet]

OK...lets wind in the attitudes.

 

[js0478759]

That's very hypocritical.

That's just not true.
believe me "a random stranger on a random forum" or not, I have a bit of experience building pcs both employed and for fun, and I have done lots of janky stuff, and not once has a pc or laptop died on me from incompatible memory.


I have no idea what you are talking about, making excuses for "idiotic shortcomings of the industry run by sociopaths with no people skills"
I wasn't making excuses, I just gave the simplified answer for an extremely complicated answer that the "sociopaths with no people skills" are trying to convey.
The reason you can't put more ram in your phone, is because phones usually have an SOC, or system on a chip, which has integrated gpu cpu ram and memory all soldered to it.
Phones are also water tight in recent years, making more ports on the phone, or taking them apart more complicated, dangerous for the longevity on the phone, and just a less do-able operation.

I'm not saying it's impossible for a company to make a phone with upgradeable ram, it's just, not something super necessary for the average user, and will have lots of sacrifices in other parts, either in cost, complexity, water protection, and/or lots of other departments.

Speed is not irrelevant, it does matter. why does a light bulb flicker when it gets unstable power (it's designed to get 50/60 hz, depending on the region, and if it doesn't it dies prematurely, or flickers)
Memory runs on hz, which as memory gets faster and faster, becomes more and more sensitive to interference.
Try to design a motherboard, and run the traces to the ram yourself, It's hard, complicated and requires a butt ton of math.

As for your original question, again, you can try mixing and matching ram, worst case scenario, it doesn't work.
Best case it works.
medium case, it kinda works but crashes.

Those are the only 3 options, thank you, and stop being a hypocritical, delusional, tin-foil hat conspiracy lover.

what is hypocritical about me stating that a saboteur trying to bring the world back into dark ages is unacceptable to me? i prefaced my original post by saying that was both a rant and a question. i dont need a single comment on the validity of my ranting, im justified in that by the definition. i need answers to my question.

i take your unsubstantiated 'experience' into account. however, anecdotes are no substitute for empirical data. especially unsubstantiated ones. there are plenty of documented cases of systems being fried, i'll stick with that for now.

you absolutely are making unnecessary excuses. there is nothing complicated or extreme about ensuring basic compatibility. it already happens in a variety of non consumer settings. the abhorrent state of consumer electronics has nothing to do with physical limitations. its a direct result of intentional and cynical decisions made by the people in charge.

i dont want to go into this non sequitur of phone building, especially given your demonstrated lack of understanding of the subject. but no, there is nothing inherent/inevitable about either putting every component on a single board or expansion precluding water sealing. not only have both of these statements been demonstrably false for most of the history of electronics, we successfully manage to routinely vacuum seal plenty of electronics without impeding their serviceability.

as for complexity issue. its been solved a long time ago. thats what i mean by intentional mgmt decisions. none of what youre talking about is particularly complicated or difficult to achieve. as evidenced by lack of these issues in military/scientific/professional gear. so stop giving them a pass for intentionally screwing up the consumer products.

so far you have been the only delusional or conspiratorial one on this thread. all i tried to do was educating you. take it or leave it, thats up to you.

 

[siaan312]

what is hypocritical about me stating that a saboteur trying to bring the world back into dark ages is unacceptable to me? i prefaced my original post by saying that was both a rant and a question. i dont need a single comment on the validity of my ranting, im justified in that by the definition. i need answers to my question.

i take your unsubstantiated 'experience' into account. however, anecdotes are no substitute for empirical data. especially unsubstantiated ones. there are plenty of documented cases of systems being fried, i'll stick with that for now.

you absolutely are making unnecessary excuses. there is nothing complicated or extreme about ensuring basic compatibility. it already happens in a variety of non consumer settings. the abhorrent state of consumer electronics has nothing to do with physical limitations. its a direct result of intentional and cynical decisions made by the people in charge.

i dont want to go into this non sequitur of phone building, especially given your demonstrated lack of understanding of the subject. but no, there is nothing inherent/inevitable about either putting every component on a single board or expansion precluding water sealing. not only have both of these statements been demonstrably false for most of the history of electronics, we successfully manage to routinely vacuum seal plenty of electronics without impeding their serviceability.

as for complexity issue. its been solved a long time ago. thats what i mean by intentional mgmt decisions. none of what youre talking about is particularly complicated or difficult to achieve. as evidenced by lack of these issues in military/scientific/professional gear. so stop giving them a pass for intentionally screwing up the consumer products.

so far you have been the only delusional or conspiratorial one on this thread. all i tried to do was educating you. take it or leave it, thats up to you.

Give me 3 papers, and or 10 real life cases where pc's have fried because of ram.
If it we're that simple to make your demands come true, why are you not working at Samsung, steering them in the right direction?
There are multiple reasons why phones are SOC based. go and read on that.
"as evidenced by lack of these issues in military/scientific/professional gear"???

Non of what you have said in that long, and very important reply denounced what I said. Please, read on the reasons for ram incompatibility, chances of pcs dying from ram, why phones have SOCs, and why not all corporations are just trying to make consumers pay more, because even though tin foils believe that, in the real world, companies are not a hive mind trying to brainwash us into thinking what they're doing is good.

 

[js0478759]

Give me 3 papers, and or 10 real life cases where pc's have fried because of ram.
If it we're that simple to make your demands come true, why are you not working at Samsung, steering them in the right direction?
There are multiple reasons why phones are SOC based. go and read on that.
"as evidenced by lack of these issues in military/scientific/professional gear"???

Non of what you have said in that long, and very important reply denounced what I said. Please, read on the reasons for ram incompatibility, chances of pcs dying from ram, why phones have SOCs, and why not all corporations are just trying to make consumers pay more, because even though tin foils believe that, in the real world, companies are not a hive mind trying to brainwash us into thinking what they're doing is good.

because i dont want to. my talents are much better employed elsewhere.

which by no means precludes me from both filing legitimate complaints with the relevant authorities and fighting misinformation on the internet. you being an ignorant apologist for intentionally harmful decisions made by others doesnt change any of that.

 

[SkyNetRising]

Give me 3 papers, and or 10 real life cases where pc's have fried because of ram.

It's possible - if ram is not inserted properly and some traces shorting out because of this. Or if you're changing ram, while pc is not turned off.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Give me 3 papers, and or 10 real life cases where pc's have fried because of ram.

Why 10? Why not 1? If it can be shown to have happened once, then the other nine times should be considered irrelevant because anything that happens due to incompatibility is 100 % repeatable. Incompatibility has nothing to do with being a "fluke" or "glitch" or whatever. Incompatibility is 100% due to not being physically or electrically compatible in some way, and I assure you, it has happened on far more than 10 occasions.

You need to very much clarify what is meant by "incompatible" though.

If it's not physically compatible then you shouldn't be able to install it, at all, without damaging either the RAM, or the motherboard, or both. But, we HAVE seen people "mostly" install memory in a board it didn't belong in, getting it all the way in on one side and then all but about a mm on the other side, due to the keyway in the slot not lining up. And, we've seen people try to power those kinds of systems ON, which absolutely causes damage of the (Usually) hardware ending or spectacular kind. In some cases it might just not do anything though.

If it's electrically incompatible, then it's probably going to fit, maybe, if it's the right TYPE of memory (DDR3, DDR4, etc.) and right FORM FACTOR (DIMM, SODIMM) but as we saw with DDR3 towards the end of it's cycle, there can certainly be problems using DDR3 in a motherboard designed for DDR3L. It WILL tend to burn out the memory controller. That is something that has absolutely happened, in more than just a "few" cases, and it's absolutely what we'd call "fried because of ram".

There are certainly other examples, but they are all somewhat MORE than simply "I installed an incompatible product and my #$%^* fried".

As far as simply installing a memory module that is not compatible with one that is currently installed, but all else about it is compatible including the type of memory (DDR3, DDR3L, DDR4) and the form factor (desktop DIMM, laptop SODIMM), then there is zero chance of anything adverse happening other than it simply not working, or working but not being stable and error free, or the motherboard not being able to find a combination of configuration settings that will actually work with both disparate DIMMs.

Putting in a stick of memory that won't play nice with the other stick is not, ever, going to "fry" anything. It can't happen. Unless YOU do something wrong in the manner in which you installed it such as trying to do so with the power on, DIMM oriented wrong, wrong kind of DIMM, etc.

 

[Darkbreeze]

i dont care about all this mhz vs mts vs mbps nonsense. i dont want to understand what different voltage does to any of that.

Lets be frank here, and I'm not trying to pick on you or get you riled up at all so please do not take it that way.

Usually, anybody who feels like this, and the rest of your feelings on the matter, is exactly the reason why we have technicians and repair or service centers who can do this kind of thing FOR you. Because they employ people who DO care about making sure that a component is physically and electrically compatible in all regards. If you can't or don't want to be bothered with any of those details, then you should 100% take your system to somebody who can be and let them do it.

"I don't want to understand" and "I want to do this myself" are two things that should generally not ever be put together. It almost always turns out badly when you do.

 

[thepersonwithaface45]

because i dont want to. my talents are much better employed elsewhere.

which by no means precludes me from both filing legitimate complaints with the relevant authorities and fighting misinformation on the internet. you being an ignorant apologist for intentionally harmful decisions made by others doesnt change any of that.

yeesh
imagine buying a car from honda and going to the dealership with a flat, demanding tires be as easy as a phone case to change.
or a lawn mower to home depot, demanding the blade be as easy as changing a phone case.
or a laptop, demanding the RAM be as easy as-
well, you get the idea. In the future I would advise being more tolerant of people who are not trying to insult you, but help you.

 

[js0478759]

Lets be frank here, and I'm not trying to pick on you or get you riled up at all so please do not take it that way.

Usually, anybody who feels like this, and the rest of your feelings on the matter, is exactly the reason why we have technicians and repair or service centers who can do this kind of thing FOR you. Because they employ people who DO care about making sure that a component is physically and electrically compatible in all regards. If you can't or don't want to be bothered with any of those details, then you should 100% take your system to somebody who can be and let them do it.

"I don't want to understand" and "I want to do this myself" are not two things that should EVER, EVER, be put together.

well, no, that is absolutely false. there is no reason whatever intentional design shortcomings should be covered up by depriving people of making their own repairs/modifications. that is not my opinion, that is a factual statement. supported by regulators belatedly waking up to all the consumer abuse perpetrated by apple, for example. which is finally facing a positive tsunami of right to repair legislation coming its way.

let alone how wrong such a suggestion is in the midst of the global pandemic. forcing people to congregate for unnecessary visits to the service centers to alleviate possibly criminal, certainly intentional product crippling by mfgs in the name of avoiding margin compression is beyond reckless.

p.s. im not riled up, most of this thread amused me. i do feel strongly about right and wrong, and holding corporations accountable for their actions, tho. which i shall always state frankly and forcefully. consequences be damned.