Dissapointed with TH's attitude about game piracy

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Wrong. I can honestly tell you that when I download pirated games that it doesn't hurt the industry. If its a game that I download to try before buying then its likely a game I never would have bought without actually trying it first. Demos generally suck and don't provide a good insight into the game.

I honestly don't care if you think its stealing or if you think I'm unethical for doing it. I buy games that I feel are good and am therefore supporting, not hurting the gaming industry. There's the alternative of never downloading games but then I would also buy far less than I currently do. So in other words, guys like me HELP the industry not hurt it since my downloads are converted to purchases if the game is worthy of such.

In response to the DRM argument. I would argue that DRM hurts more than it helps the game industry. I will never download or buy Bioshock based on the fiasco they caused in order to "prevent" piracy. Hell, I won't even pirate it because I don't want to waste my time with a game who's publisher is more concerned about making a few extra bucks than providing good customer service.
 
I'm surprised that while some of you attack my opinion on piracy none of you have tried to claim that it isn't hurting the industry, which just adds fuel to argument that you guys don't give a #$%$ and that's the real reason why you steal
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Man, you just don't get it. Everybody agrees that it's hurting the industry, so why debate it? The real debate is what to do about it and obviously most here agree that DRM is not the solution. While I don't agree with those who download to try, that's not even the big area where piracy hurts the gaming industry. We can sit here and debate the ethics or morals of such practices, but like DRM doing so just takes the focus off the real issue.

I don't care whether you buy games or not, I care whether you steal them.
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Unfortunatly I think many in the gaming industry feel the same way. They don't care if people want to buy their product, instead focusing more on how many want to steal it. What would you prefer if you were a game developer, selling 1,000,000 copies of a game and have 1,000,000 more pirated or selling 100,000 copies and only 50,000 pirated?
 



im not stealing if i download a game..... check out the definition of theft...http://www.swarb.co.uk/acts/1968TheftAct.shtml

Basic definition of theft

1.--

(1) A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and 'thief' and 'steal' shall be construed accordingly.

(2) It is immaterial whether the appropriation is made with a view to gain, or is made for the thief's own benefit.
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1) its a copy so im not depriving anyone of it, also i dont keep them permanently i go out and buy them if there good, or delete them if bad.
2) i do not gain anything (well apart from whether or not the game is good enough for my hard earned cash)


im doing the industry a favor by only buying games that deserve to be bought, im filtering out the crap and keeping the innovative and original publishers in the game(no pun intended), survival of the strongest.



EDIT

theres one other thing i would like to say in regards to DRM...

because of DRM i can no longer buy a PC game then get a refund when its not good.
 
I recently got a new PC (basically in order to play Crysis) with Vista. I was getting a little bored so I decided to install an older game I have: Rainbow Six Lockdown (pretty bad game in itself). This game is protected by the infamous Starforce copy protection, which I had forgotten; it's not on the box. After installing, Vista will detect the driver that was installed and decide it is not compatible or some such and refers you to the Starforce website.

Uninstalling the game leaves the driver behind which will be detected every time you boot Vista. So this copy protection comes back to haunt you in the future and keeps you dependent on the continued existence of the CP company to maintain it. I downloaded the removal program from Starforce, which seems to have worked; but otherwise I'd probably have had to resort to a registry edit to get rid of it.

That's why I absolutely detest copy protection.

I hate to have to put DVD's in my drive for absolutely no other reason than copy protection. When hard drives were about the same size as CDs, data usually wasn't copied completely to HD, but these days everything is always copied to your HD.

I don't normally pirate games, but I made an exception for CoD4. It costs 58 euros in my regular game store. Crysis (and most other new games) costs 45. That's a whopping 28.8% difference in price. Why is that? For CoD4's lengthy single player campaign? I don't play games online anymore and I refuse to pay premium plus for a game with one of the shortest SP campaigns ever.


 

Have you checked the reactions around your post? Apparently there's quite some people not agreeing that particular point. I think most if not all of them are just trying to justify their behavior, which is getting something for free that they know the creators are trying to sell. That is the dilemma and by just getting it without paying for it they are screwing the demand and supply system. If people think that the game is too expensive then don't buy it, but don't play it either! No demand? prices will go down, or games will become better so that people want to spend that kind of money on their games.




This is indeed the crux of the matter. On the one hand I fully agree with you here, purplerat. Business logic dictates to go for the big sale regardless of how many will pirate the game.

However, that system is instable in the long run if you do that unchecked. As we are seeing around us (and in this topic) you see two groups, people that want to pay for it, and people that don't want to pay for it or only if it is really really good (in my mind that is the same thing as not wanting to pay for it because what is good and what is not is a very subjective thing, and moreover, by knowing that it is available for free the actual customer value of it goes down significantly, it becomes like shareware and we all know how commercially succesful that is). So even people that do want to pay for it upfront start rebelling because others are just playing the same thing for free. At this moment industry is responding by keeping prices up or increasing them even and trying to get more bucks out of the people that remain willing to pay for it. How long will that go on if they do not uphold appearances to try and battle piracy? And is anyone in the industry caring about how fair that is to the people that are still willing to pay for it?

And that is my biggest concern...what is going on now in the PC gaming business is making honest people not care anymore and switch over to pirating themselves. It makes me sad (not that those here boasting on their piracy will give a damn..). Industry is in part to blame for this, for wanting to sell stuf that they cannot properly market but then again who can if people refuse to play by the rules? We either need new rules or we need enforcement of current rules. Anything in between just does not fly.


 
Greetings!

There are pirates (organizations or individuals), the ones with financial motives to break the law, and then there are home based freeloaders, and those will give any excuse for downloading stuff.
Pirates are already geneally regarded as nocive, the surge in freeloading activities since the boom of broadband make them even worse.
Both pirates and freeloaders are parasites of the system. They parasite the content creators made, the work publishers did and the paying customers effort.
Both classes need to be dealt with.
 


And what is your proposal on how to deal with them? Try to be practical please, (for instance) give some thought as to how you can prosecute or prohibit pirates in a cost effective way without bothering legit customers.
 
Greetings!
Pirates must be dealt through law enforcement agencies and courts, as the current situation.
Freeloaders rely on broadband for their activities, the three-strike policy being equationated in France, UK and Australia seem to be the best approach. Unlike some reports suggest, ISPs do not need to inspect every packet, instead they can rely on tips from copyright holders to strike its users.

In the end, pirates and freeloaders will always exist but the impact of their activities will diminish.
 


do what the canadian songwriter's association wants.. charge every canadian an extra 5$ a month because some ppl download, but everyone is guilty! no need for prosecution!

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080221/song_downloads_AM_080221/20080221?hub=Canada

of course, the songwriters will probably get squat and the money will go to the big businesses.
 
In the UK, downloading copyrighted software/movies/music is a CIVIL offence and NOT a criminal offence.

SELLING pirated things is a criminal offence.

And it is not theft under UK law, as theft is defined in UK law thusly:

The Theft Act 1968 Section1 (1) states that a person is guilty of theft if: he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

As you are not depriving anyone of anything when you copy a game, it is NOT theft.

Anyway....

DRM only really affects legitimate consumers. *They* are the ones that will hit Bioshocks install limit etc.

When I bought X3:Reunion, the starforce virus contained on the software would not allow my legit copy to run - I had to download a cracked executable to run it!!

The same has happened with a really old game from my collection I tried to play, protected by Securom, although I forget the name of the game now. Again, a cracked EXE was needed to get it to run.

And yet, as a pirate, you just download the game, copy the EXE, and run it. Its actually simpler than owning it!! DRM *ONLY* hurts legit customers.


EVERY game and film and album released WILL get pirated to some extent. DRM DOES NOT prevent this. These companies may as well not fill their games with DRM, saving them Securom/Safedisc/Starforce licensing costs, reducing support issues, and then control the multiplayer aspects of their games and patch delivery with a serial.

This is what Stardock do, with games like Sins of a Solar Empire, and it works well. They treat piracy almost like free advertising, a demo of their game being put out there. The number of people that want the patch (for new units or bug fixes) or the multiplayer features and end up buying it would surprise you
 
This thread is similar to many others cropping up all over the internet. Common themes I find odd:

a) presumption that there is a problem. We basically can determine if there is a problem by asking if the marketplace is economically healthy. Casual observation says it is. Recent interview with Valve on this website resulted in a viewpoint that business is great and that piracy is a minor irritation, not a problem.

b) presumption that the posters convincing each other of their viewpoint is an important factor.

where's the data?

c) presumption that the game companies are in this for "us" in some form of personalized, non-economic, sense. One of the posters above used words approximately like "how can we steal from a game company that poured its heart and soul into their product"...like its not a business but someone who worked for free! lol Lets see that heart and soul translate into distribution of profit to each user....oops...now its a business.


My personal position is that I don't steal. That's a personal choice based on my own view of carma and how I want to feel inside of myself.

Having said that, I also don't owe any "for profit" company with unsolicited and unpaid protection services. And the rest of you don't either.

Any company that enjoys the profits that come from using networked distribution faces the consequences as well. Any company that fails because of the consequences did not have a valid business plan in place.

Theft has been part of commerce since time began. Business thrives in spite of that. Behave as you wish others to behave, but debate it? Worry about it? Act like companies are victims?

Nope.
 
When I bought X3:Reunion, the starforce virus contained on the software would not allow my legit copy to run - I had to download a cracked executable to run it!!

The same has happened with a really old game from my collection I tried to play, protected by Securom, although I forget the name of the game now. Again, a cracked EXE was needed to get it to run.
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Where did you find the ''cracked'' executable's?
 
I don't remember now, it was just after the release of X3 so a couple of years ago now.

As it is, Egosoft, the makers of X3, have removed the Starforce protection in the latest patch anyway :)

To be honest, the worst offender is Microsoft.

I have a legit copy of Vista Ultimate OEM on one machine, and yes, I registered as a system builder just to satisfy their license. I have a legit copy of Vista Ultimate Retail on another, and my Laptop (a dell) has a preinstalled OEM version.

The Preinstalled OEM version is fine. I can change the RAM or whatever, and it doesn't throw a fit, as the preinstalled version of Vista doesn't need activating. I can't change the motherboard (which is a bit silly) but its a laptop anyway 😛

The others are annoying. They both decide they want reactivating every so often because I have moved GPUs/HDDs whatever about. This ALWAYS requires a 25 minute phone call to M$, entering a 10832471 digit long key, assuring them that it IS only on one PC, then slowly typing the reponse key in. A BIOS update causes Vista to need Reactivation EVERY TIME.

The OEM version has even more hassle. I remember spending 3 hours on the phone to M$ when the activation process just failed completely. Vista showed as activated in the computer info screen, but wouldn't let me use Areo, and complained of needing activation in the system tray. This is a completely legitimate Vista install that had been working previously. I was passed from operator to operator in M$, and had to persuade each one that yes, this OEM copy of Vista was installed by a registered system builder (myself), no, I wasn't a pirate, etc etc, with each operator insisting that the reason Vista would not activate was because it knew it was not installed on a pre-built machine (wtf?!?). After the 10th operator insisting this, I gave up, reinstalled Vista, and it worked. Proving they were talking crap. This is one situation which proves that DRM negatively impacts legitimate customers. I had to spend 3 hours on the phone (thats 20p per minute from a mobile, and my hourly rate is £50), and then reinstall the ****ing OS, losing data, because of a failure of their DRM system.

Oh, "Windows Genuine Advantage" insisting I download some stupid little file and copy/paste a 6 digit number every time I want to download a hotfix to their buggy OS! How annoying is that! I really don't care about pirates, and don't see why I should have to jump through hoops to prove myself innocent. I almost wonder if Vista doesn't have intentional bugs in to encourage people to buy it - only this way can you download the hotfixes needed for stability. The worst part is this "WGA" thing is them admitting their stupid activation procedure doesn't even work in preventing piracy, or it wouldn't be used. So now we have a broken, waste of significant time, headache of an activation process, AND a daily annoyance in WGA, AND we are stupid enough to pay £300 for the privilege!! Yipee!!
 
I've read this thread through a bit and some good points have been made. I always buy games i know i will enjoy (C&C series, Valve games, Newer games) But I also download older games where my CD's have been scratched beyond use (deus ex, SS2, Dungeon Siege). I find using images is a way better solution for me, perhaps you don't agree but once you go through about 100 CRC errors or DRM checks failing for odd reasons you get a bit annoyed.

I just want to throw this out there. What would you guys say about iTunes for games?

Download a game(6gb) 250kb/s takes about 6 hours. Waiting for royal mail to deliver your stupid game - 1 week.

Just talking from personal experience here.
 


not according to the adverts at the begining of legal dvds, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPcHhOBd-hI

although i dont want to take this any further here, if anyone can prove to me that by uk law downloading is actually illegal then send me a PM, so far our current description of stealing and theft does not cover downloading.
 


Heh that's the Movie studios trying to make out that it is a crime to scare you.... its a lie.
 
Ok, here we go again.

1. Piracy is hurting the PC gaming industry. Yes, I do believe this is true. How much it is hurting it is open to debate, but it is harming it.

2. DRM is hurting the PC gaming industry. Yes, I do believe this is true as well. At one point I purchased 3 games in 2 months and all three of them failed utterly to run until I found an illegal crack to break the DRM. Ever since that point I wait 3 days before buying a PC game and then I look for information on it's DRM. If it is using any form of DRM more intrusive than a CD check and a serial code, I will not buy it.

Back when Bioshock came out, I convinced several friends to wait with me and see how it did with DRM. Sure enough the DRM was thick enough to choke an elephant, so we did not purchase the PC version. Instead of all 5 of us going out and getting our own copies at $50 or $60 each or $250+, we got one copy of the 360 version at $60 because THAT WAS just a CD check.

Here is another little story for you. This one isn't about me though, it is about a little company called Stardock. You see, they had a surprise hit called Galactic Civilizations. It was a surprise because they were a small time developer and the game was made on a shoestring budget, but it sold really well, largely due to MOO3 being an enormous disappointment, but that is another story. After this surprise hit, they produced a higher budget sequel and distributed it both through their Stardock system and through retail boxes. Now here is the real cool part. It was completely free of any sort of DRM. It just had a serial code that wasn't even required except for registration.

Now Stardock had been a small time player before this point and they were ridiculed for their lack of DRM, but they stood strong and when it came out, it was one of the best selling games that quarter. In fact, right around that time Starforce was being bandied about and used in several games. This game, free of any sort of DRM, outsold every single game with Starforce the month it came out.

Now you can't tell me that people are cool with DRM and will buy regardless, nor can you tell me that DRM is even a mild deterrent to people stealing a game. There is quite simply no evidence to support it.

Now back when I was in college, I will admit that I did download quite a few games that I enjoyed without paying for them. That is largely for the same reason as my macaroni and cheese and ramen noodles diet. Hell some days I would just eat a plate full of rice. The higher my income, the more games I purchase, and I no longer pirate games. I will still download cracks for games I buy and I won't buy any game with particularly draconian DRM.
 
Infornography42 - I agree with almost everything you said above but... I think one of the most fundamental truths is that most PC game players have no idea what DRM is, how it can cause conflicts etc. Most users have never heard of TMH (no offense) or DRM etc....In other words, the more knowledgeable users (all of you in this thread) do not represent the average user. You are the minority by a very wide margin.

Case in point, I have used computers since the good old days of 20mhz processors with a whopping 540k of RAM. I can teach most of you a few things about MS Office apps, I do basic comp maintenance (I schedule the Disk Defrag and set the windows updater to "auto") but I never heard the term DRM until I started reading this thread. 99% of all PC games I have ever purchased were for my son. I would go to the retail chain, look at the system specs and buy it if it would run on my comp. And that represents the primary and targeted segment of the publishers target audience.
 
But you also have to keep in mind. Your average video game purchaser will purchase maybe, at most 2 or 3 new games a year. Most games purchased are older, cheaper, or crappier games (see barbie horse adventure).

Enthusiast gamers will almost assuredly be familiar with DRM and they are the portion of the market purchasing upwards of 15 to 30 new games a year. They represent a much higher profit margin portion of the industry.
 
Additionally. Why do you think manufacturers produce demos and display their games at conventions, and provide copies to review sites and magazines and put out advertisements in those places? These are resources only enthusiasts are likely to see. I think you will find that while we might make up a smaller percentage of purchasers, we make up a mighty high percentage of profits.
 


So that 8800 GTX I just got won't be wasted!!

Bob
 
Let's say that the PC Game days are over and all the developers focus only on console games. Will pirating stop? I'm certain it will not. Then what?

The PC Game industry will never die and do you know why? Because it will always be a source of income. Sure there will be thousands downloading free but thousands more will buy it. The only consequence will be lamer and dumber games which will also affect sales. It's a vicious circle. As I see it game developers will have to stop worrying about how many are downloading pirated copies and start making GOOD games and the BIG sales will follow.

Alas, the one thing I don't understand is DRM. Does it have a negative impact on pirating whatsoever? Hell no. What it does is complicate the sh*t out of the lives of legit buyers. And for what? Preventing piracy? YEAH... RIGHT...

I really miss the old days when all you had to do is install a game and forget about the CD or... install a game, type a CD-Key and then... forget about the CD until the next OS reinstall.

In conclusion, (IMHO) the last thing the DRM is in the PC Gaming Industry is a benefactor.
 
I think the best solution is to make it easier to buy the game legitimately.

First step is to remove the DRM software. It is pointless and a waste of money.

Second step is to pass the savings on to the customer. If they sold PC games at $40 or $45 each from day 1, they would get more sales earlier.

Third step is to give an incentive to purchase without breaking the software. Just make the serial code you provide optional during install, but required to register. Registration is required for game updates. Game updates frequently provide valuable interface tweaks and useful features so you really want them, but the game isn't crippled without them.

Last step is to have an online distribution system that allows the user to download the software but doesn't require checking in with the server every time they run it. Then give an option to also have a physical copy sent for an additional $5 or so.

Hey... that looks familiar... Oh yeah, that is excactly what Stardock is doing currently. They seem to be doing pretty well for themselves too.
 
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