Question Does anyone have any love for Arrow Lake (I need a pep talk...) ?

[thegreatdelcamo]

So much negative on the gaming performance of the 265 and 285 Arrow Lake CPUs. I'm considering moving from AMD to Intel for a number of reasons and I wonder, does anyone love them?

They are more efficient than last gen. Fixed the PCIe 5.0 lane deficit compared to AMD. Still very fast if not the fastest at single and multi threaded workloads. Presumably won't self destruct. And since most gaming, as I understand it, is GPU bound, few will experience real world differences, especially at high resolutions. My game is a golf simulator, and possibly something like Microsoft Flight Simulator... but to this day, I've not gamed at all on a PC...

Some have commented that Arrow Lake has more total PCIe lanes than AMD, but I'm finding it hard to get a handle on that... Anyone an expert?

 

[QyInvoLing]

Ultra200S series don't have more PCIe lanes than AM5CPUs. Both of them offers 28 PCIe lanes. What differs is the chipset.
X670e chipset uses PCIe4.0x4 of CPU as DMI and offers extra 12 PCIe4.0 lanes & 8 PCIe3.0 lanes.As a result, using a most expandable x670e board with AM5cpu , you'll get 24 PCIe4.0 lanes from CPU, 12 PCIe4.0 lanes and 8 PCIe3.0 lanes from the chipset.
Z890 chipset uses PCIe4.0x8 of CPU as DMI and offers extra 28 PCIe4.0 lanes. As a result, using a most expandable z890 board with ultra200s cpu , you'll get 20 PCIe4.0 lanes from CPU and 28 PCIe4.0 lanes from the chipset.

Generally AMD platform doesn't lose a lot for expansion(8xPCIE3.0 vs 12xPCIe4.0), and it's not a CPU problem. If AMD releases a x570-am5 version using an AM5/EPYC CPU's IOD, things will change.

If you need an affordable&expandable motherboard, check MSI x670e gaming plus wifi, it's cheaper and better than most of the z890 motherboards(only 200$ in my area). For extreme expandability, pick MSI x670e carbon.

Presumably won't self destruct

Why this is an advantage??? It's a shame for 13/14th, and AM5 CPUs won't boom too.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

Ultra200S series don't have more PCIe lanes than AM5CPUs. Both of them offers 28 PCIe lanes. What differs is the chipset.
X670e chipset uses PCIe4.0x4 of CPU as DMI and offers extra 12 PCIe4.0 lanes & 8 PCIe3.0 lanes.As a result, using a most expandable x670e board with AM5cpu , you'll get 24 PCIe4.0 lanes from CPU, 12 PCIe4.0 lanes and 8 PCIe3.0 lanes from the chipset.
Z890 chipset uses PCIe4.0x8 of CPU as DMI and offers extra 28 PCIe4.0 lanes. As a result, using a most expandable z890 board with ultra200s cpu , you'll get 20 PCIe4.0 lanes from CPU and 28 PCIe4.0 lanes from the chipset.

Generally AMD platform doesn't lose a lot for expansion(8xPCIE3.0 vs 12xPCIe4.0), and it's not a CPU problem. If AMD releases a x570-am5 version using an AM5/EPYC CPU's IOD, things will change.

If you need an affordable&expandable motherboard, check MSI x670e gaming plus wifi, it's cheaper and better than most of the z890 motherboards(only 200$ in my area). For extreme expandability, pick MSI x670e carbon.

Why this is an advantage??? It's a shame for 13/14th, and AM5 CPUs won't boom too.

Gosh, thanks so much for the reply! I'll have to study it. Some of the abbreviations... I have to learn, such as DMI, EPYC, IOD...

Lanes... I am reading, for Intel, 48 lanes of 4.0, with 20 from the CPU and 28 from the Chipset. And for AMD, 36 lanes of 4.0, with 24 from the CPU and 12 from the Chipset...

Okay, 48 to 36... that is quite a disparity. So, a question... In what way does that manifest in the competing boards? I do tend to see more USB on the 890 boards, with up to 15 ports. And I like that a lot, as I need at least 12. So if the board already has 12 or more in back, I probably don't need to install a card for more.

Are you suggesting the 670 verses the newer 870 for any particular reason? Given my druthers, I'd take Bluetooth 5.4 and Wi-Fi 7. Bluetooth connectivity issues vex me constantly with my cycling gear and Garmin watch, and I've noticed much improved connections to smart lights and such under my newer Wi-Fi 7 router. So, those items would move me towards the 870, given other things being equal.

 

[QyInvoLing]

In what way does that manifest in the competing boards?

It depends on the board's design, if a board provides more PCIe lanes beyond the limitation, there's must some conflict which means that not all of them can be used together. Remember, the limit is not equal to the reality, not every motherboard will completely use all of the PCIe lanes, and it's the same for USB ports. If so, there won't be any poor boards providing only 1 M2 slot and 1 PCIe x16 slot.

And I like that a lot, as I need at least 12

Are you suggesting the 670 verses the newer 870 for any particular reason?

Non-USB4 USB ports don't consume PCIe lanes, z890's USB capacity is not better than AMD's x670/x670e/x870e. x670/x870e/x870e is made by connecting two b650/b650e chipset, thus leading doubled USB port amount limit for x670/x670e/x870e boards. Maybe there are x670e motherboards providing enough USB ports for your need.

Are you suggesting the 670 verses the newer 870 for any particular reason?

Ultra200s cpus offers two Thunderbolt4 ports directly(not from the chipset), while AM5 CPU doesn't offers that, and they need a PCIe4.0x4 converted into USB4 ports——and this is the reason I don't recommend X870/X870E, they have 4 less PCIe lanes than B650/X670E.(x870 is not a dual-chip chipset like x670, it's b650e+usb4).
There are fine WiFi7 x670e motherboards IRC.

 

[thegreatdelcamo]

I wasn't aware that any 670 boards have Wi-Fi 7 or Bluetooth 5.4, if that is what you said. They came out too long ago, or so Copilot tells me!

So you are saying that the 870E boards have fewer PCIe lanes than the prior generation of 670E boards? I was not aware of that!

Well, what I need are 12+ USB ports, a PCIe 4.0 x 4 slot for a POE card to support two high-speed swing cameras.

I'm struggling with the AMD verses Intel issue because I'm trying to decide how to solve a graphics issue I'm having with my current system. I've asked about it on another thread, and I'm going to take the advice I've gotten to see what I can do...

But I like what the ROG Z890 Apex board offers, though it's expensive as heck. It is the only board I've seen that can fit two GPUs while not blocking off PCIe 4.0 slots that I want to use. I own the two GPUs already, and if I can use them to solve my issue, that saves me from buying a 4090 or 5090. So, oddly, that insanely expensive board suddenly doesn't look so expensive... sorta...

You have educated me a LOT on the lane issue. Indeed, I'm going to study your comments more so that I can really understand what you have told me. And I really appreciate it!

Do I infer from your comments that you have nothing against the Arrow Lake chips? Do you like or dislike them for any reason?

 

[geofelt]

I happen to like what I see in the ultra 200 processors.

At any price point, intel and amd latest gen will be comparable.
There is a difference between what a chipset supports and what is implemented on the motherboard.
Here are the specs for the Z890 chipset:
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/237777/intel-z890-chipset/specifications.html
Up to 14 usb ports
Expansion slots can add many more of different types of devices.
It all depends on your needs.

Most games depend on the performance of the single master thread.
That is where the X3D processors shine.
The operative thread gets the use of a huge cache to boost performance.
But, when doing other multitasking operations, the cache gets emptied and normal performance is not as good as the non X3d counterparts.

One thing to like is the low cooling requirements. Air will do it.

It may take time for windows to adjust the thread director to know about the new non hyperthreaded processor.

 

[QyInvoLing]

I wasn't aware that any 670 boards have Wi-Fi 7 or Bluetooth 5.4, if that is what you said. They came out too long ago, or so Copilot tells me!

Yes, there isn't any, I remembered it wrong.

So you are saying that the 870E boards have fewer PCIe lanes than the prior generation of 670E boards? I was not aware of that!

Yes, the USB4 port takes 4 PCIe lanes away.

what I need are 12+ USB ports, a PCIe 4.0 x 4 slot for a POE card

I like what the ROG Z890 Apex board offers

Oh I remember it's me that recommended Z890 Apex in another post. It's fine for you.
If your 4070ti is a dual-slot thin card, you can also pick ROG x670e-e or MSI x870e tomahawk, they offers 13/12 USB ports with capability of thick 4080+dual-slot 4070ti+your PCIe4.0x4 device.

You have educated me a LOT on the lane issue. Indeed, I'm going to study your comments more so that I can really understand what you have told me. And I really appreciate it!

Once I got tired in my frontend developing job, I'll view Tom's hardware and check whether there's some posts that I can do something for help. Giving out helpful replies makes both me and the poster happy😉

Do I infer from your comments that you have nothing against the Arrow Lake chips? Do you like or dislike them for any reason?

I don't like high-end ARL CPU because I already have a 7950x3d($477 when I bought it) and 14600kf($173 when I bought it), while 285K is sold out, 265k is currently $417 and:

- To Intel civil war, they got beaten by 14600kf in gaming.
- None of them can greatly overpress 7950x(currently $449) in handling multi-core tasks.
- They got beaten in everything by 7950x3d with a similar price.
So, as a conclusion, they are too weak but are being sold at such a high price. The big problem is the price. If the price is low outside China, maybe they are fine to buy.

For mid-end&low-end ARL CPUs, I'm curious about them, but not willing to buy them now.
If Ultra5 230F is $122 in China, I'll get one for fun and place it into my itx case.

I prefer Lunar Lake laptop CPUs, they are EXTREMELY AWESOME, once I need a laptop I'll buy one, but my company doesn't allow employees bringing their personal laptop, so it's almost impossible for me to got them. It's sad.

 

[QyInvoLing]

Non-KF-ended ultra200s CPUs contains an Arc Alchemist iGPU. I'm using A380, A770 and have used B580. They generally beats AMD's RDNA2 iGPU in Ryzen 7000/9000-series. They're worth buying when a K-ended CPU costs within $30 higher than a KF-ended CPU.

OK, it's another reason for loving Lunar Lake CPUs. Lunar lake CPUs contains Battlemage iGPU, which is significantly stronger than the Alchemist, as B580 completely kicked A770 away.