[DoomRL] Design Issues - Results

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

I see one copy, Google groups appears to have eaten the others to me...
Sorry, it was not intentional.
Just beat the cyberdemon for the 1st time, nice work Kornel!

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Glen Wheeler wrote:
>> I don't consider Doom3 as canon. At least until I see it ;-).
>>
>
> I personally adore Doom3. But if you want to really speak about
> canon, you should read the doom bible:
>
> http://www.planetdoom.com/doom/doombible.pdf

I know it ;-). I have a copy of it in the DoomRL design folder ;-).

> Being one of the original design documents. Check it out for any
> ideas wrt enhancing DRL...I personally think most people don't know
> what the doom feel actually is, what was aimed for by id.

Still i consider this design version a little to "bright and happy".

>>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a
>>> cool weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>>
>> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.

1 vote against. Any others?

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> I'm fairly ambivalent about
>>> either, and the others, though I do think the Railgun could be a
>>> cool weapon (it behaves markedly differently than the others).
>> Yes. But what to use as ammo?
>
> IMVHO ammo issues should not be a problem for a designer. I regard it
> much more interesting if they will be a lot of weapons with a lot of
> types of ammo, that (ammo) will be not as easily disponible as now
> (it's enough to go into hell arena on 2nd level to have more than you
> can carry). That will give situations like: "oh, no - no more 7.62
> bullets - I've got to switch to this 20mm gatling gun again! Hope
> will find some shotgun bullets soon anyway."

Well maybe... I had this all the time when playing DeusEx ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
> 1 vote against. Any others?

For.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl

 

[Ru]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>
> For.

for.


--
ru

 

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ru wrote:
> In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>
>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe. 1
>>>> vote against. Any others?
>>
>> For.
>
> for.

2 to one ;-). I'll make a regular poll for it in the next Design Issues Post
;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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ru wrote:
> In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>
>>Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>
>>
>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>>>
>>>1 vote against. Any others?
>>
>>For.
>
> for.
>

against. Doom-tech was always almost steam-age to me (how do those
English get along without composite nouns?), so the rail gun just looks
too 'clean'. Also the rail gun (like a sniper rifle) would be a true
long-ranged (that is 400m+) weapon with a >1m barrel and a >1s firing
delay; totally unsuitable for the doom setting (even Doom's rocket
launchers are air/water powered, judging by the speed and lack of
backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
flamethrower.

Lars

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl>:
> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.

Obviously a man of taste and discretion. 🙂

>Double shotgun will stay as it is.

I think you may need to rebalance SG/SSG damage now it decreases with
range; you don't want to find it becomes completely useless except at
pointblank.

>IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting Gun (but it
>probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?), Railgun (Cells), BFG10k
>(as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an assault rifle as a step between
>Pistol and Chaingun.

I think you should call it "submachine gun", otherwise people will
complain about it using pistol ammo.

How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Teleute, February.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

quoting Kornel Kisielewicz <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl>:
>Glen Wheeler wrote:
>>I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>1 vote against. Any others?

Against. It's a Quake-ism. If you are going to add an accurate longrange
weapon, a sniper rifle would be more thematically appropriate.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Teleute, February.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 1 Feb 2005 08:47:35 -0800, "TheWickedFlea" <thewickedflea@gmail.com>
tried to confuse everyone with this message:

>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>For, gimme the gun! 😉
>
You cheater! Posted it three times I'm against railgun, although I'm
all for it if QuakeRL ever gets released 😉

--
|a\o/r|,-------------.,---------- Timofei Shatrov aka Grue ------------.
| m"a ||FC AMKAR PERM|| mail: grue at mail.ru http://grue3.tripod.com |
| k || PWNZ J00 || KoL:Grue3 NationStates:Holypunkeye |
`-----'`-------------'`-------------------------------------------[4*72]

 

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On 01 Feb 2005 17:36:48 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
<damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> tried to confuse everyone with this
message:


>
>How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
>loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?

I think with the addition of darkness (which appearance seems likely
after Kornel writes new LOS code) it won't be that useless.

--
|a\o/r|,-------------.,---------- Timofei Shatrov aka Grue ------------.
| m"a ||FC AMKAR PERM|| mail: grue at mail.ru http://grue3.tripod.com |
| k || PWNZ J00 || KoL:Grue3 NationStates:Holypunkeye |
`-----'`-------------'`-------------------------------------------[4*72]

 

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Lars Kecke wrote:
> ru wrote:
>> In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>>
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>>>>
>>>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>>>
>>> For.
>>
>> for.
>>
>
> against. Doom-tech was always almost steam-age to me (how do those
> English get along without composite nouns?), so the rail gun just
> looks too 'clean'. Also the rail gun (like a sniper rifle) would be a
> true long-ranged (that is 400m+) weapon with a >1m barrel and a >1s
> firing delay; totally unsuitable for the doom setting (even Doom's
> rocket launchers are air/water powered, judging by the speed and lack
> of backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically
> powered flamethrower.

True.

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
P.S I'm currently biased against, anyone else want to comment?

 

[Guest]

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TheWickedFlea wrote:
>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>> 1 vote against. Any others?
> FOR. Gimme that gun!! 😉

Posting three times wont give you three votes, I watch the From field ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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Timofei Shatrov wrote:
> On 1 Feb 2005 08:47:35 -0800, "TheWickedFlea"
> <thewickedflea@gmail.com> tried to confuse everyone with this message:
>
>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe.
>>> 1 vote against. Any others?
>> For, gimme the gun! 😉
>>
> You cheater! Posted it three times I'm against railgun, although
> I'm all for it if QuakeRL ever gets released 😉

LOL, maybe ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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Glen Wheeler wrote:
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
> news:ctgceu$hrr$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> [..]
>
> It is a roguelike, and how you approach this depends on your aims as
> a designer. If you are trying to replicate the doom approach, this
> isn't the way to do it.

I don't. "Bullettime" seems silly to me.

> If you want to adapt the doom approach to
> something more roguelike then some kind of dodge statistic which
> determines through a formula involving the enemy's accuracy (and
> perhaps other things) if a projectile passes through your square
> instead of hitting you seems more appropriate. The above seems
> counter-intuitive, since most dodging is performed while firing (at
> least in doom).

But as I see it, allows for some true tactical play. Anyway, we'll see how
it works when 097 will hit the shelves ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:09:14 +0100, "Kornel Kisielewicz"
> <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>> Firing and hitting will stay the same, UNLESS the player's (and
>> only player's) last action was a move. If so, there is a chance that
>> the attacker will fire at the last spot the player was at. This will
>> only happen if the adversary uses a non-instant missle (rocket,
>> plasma, ball).
>
> This should work. At least running for cover will be semi-viable.

Especialy if you run zig-zag ;-).

>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>
> I don't think new weapons are needed, just more utility for the
> existing ones.

I'll make a poll on that.

> What you could add some variety to is barrels. In
> addition to exploding barrels, there could be barrels that spill acid
> when shot (cover the floor around them with acid), barrels that do
> nothing (make shooting through them difficult/impossible and they
> serve as extra cover), barrels that burst into flame (light up the
> level -- addition after darkness implemented), barrels that do other
> interesting things.

Hey, these are nice ideas, I'll keep them in mind!

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>> Shotgun -- I finally decided for a variation of David's approach.
>> Assault Shotgun will be no more, standard shotgun will have a
>> magazine of 4. One pressing of 'r' will pump one shell into the
>> magazine, the second one (if in a row with the previous) will reload
>> all shells (longer reload time equal to the missing shells in the
>> magazine). Double shotgun will stay as it is.
>
> So, pump-action shotgun finally? The size of magazine seems a little
> small to me however, it's 5 up to 8 in modern pump-action shotguns.

No, 4 should be enough for everybody ;-).

> The goal is obviously not to reload the magazine until the danger is
> removed.

That's why ;-).

>> New Weapons -- No grenades (they somehow don't go with the
>> Doom-feel IMHO). The only possibilities I'm left with are Lighting
>> Gun (but it probably would need to use dedicated ammo, right?),
>> Railgun (Cells), BFG10k (as a secret weapon), and (maybe,maybe) an
>> assault rifle as a step between Pistol and Chaingun.
>
> Let me guess - 10mm assault rifle? :> Seems be closer to verity than
> 10mm gatling gun, but anyway too simplified for my taste. (I might be
> deviated by Vietcong).

You are.

> Right now it's a submachine gun that has unnecessary gatling gun
> mechanism. ;-> Unrealistic - take reality, multiply by 2 and you will
> receive science-fiction, I've nothing against. If some weapon fires
> realistic ammo with realistic rate of fire doing realistic damage
> it's ok for me. Unless the gun is close in parameters to modern 2 kg
> submachine gun and is supposed to be a 50kg six(?)-barelled gatling
> gun used primarily as antiaircraft gun. Doom creators needed a weapon
> that is visually interesting and distinctive, that's why they used
> gatling gun I guess.

No comment ;-). I'm sick of this discussion, let a vote decide.

> PS. Inventory decisions are unDoomish if you ask me.

Let's see ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

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Dnia Wed, 2 Feb 2005 04:04:22 +0100, Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):
> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:09:14 +0100, "Kornel Kisielewicz"
>> <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>> What you could add some variety to is barrels. In
>> addition to exploding barrels, there could be barrels that spill acid
>> when shot (cover the floor around them with acid), barrels that do
>> nothing (make shooting through them difficult/impossible and they
>> serve as extra cover), barrels that burst into flame (light up the
>> level -- addition after darkness implemented), barrels that do other
>> interesting things.
>
> Hey, these are nice ideas, I'll keep them in mind!

Barrels that contain items so that it's sometimes good to shoot at them
even when there are monsters around...

--
Radomir @**@_ Bee! .**._ .**._ .**._ .**._ zZ
`The Sheep' ('') 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (--) 3
Dopieralski .vvVvVVVVVvVVVvVVVvVvVVvVvvVvVVVVVVvvVVvvVvvvvVVvVVvv.v.

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> So, pump-action shotgun finally? The size of magazine seems a little
>> small to me however, it's 5 up to 8 in modern pump-action shotguns.
> No, 4 should be enough for everybody ;-).

Depends on the damage\hit ratio anyway, but I don't suppose so.


>> Let me guess - 10mm assault rifle? :> Seems be closer to verity than
>> 10mm gatling gun, but anyway too simplified for my taste. (I might be
>> deviated by Vietcong).
> You are.

I thought so. 🙂 Let's look for realistic 3d shooters then.


>> Right now it's a submachine gun that has unnecessary gatling gun
>> mechanism. ;-> Unrealistic - take reality, multiply by 2 and you will
>> receive science-fiction, I've nothing against. If some weapon fires
>> realistic ammo with realistic rate of fire doing realistic damage
>> it's ok for me. Unless the gun is close in parameters to modern 2 kg
>> submachine gun and is supposed to be a 50kg six(?)-barelled gatling
>> gun used primarily as antiaircraft gun. Doom creators needed a weapon
>> that is visually interesting and distinctive, that's why they used
>> gatling gun I guess.
>
> No comment ;-). I'm sick of this discussion, let a vote decide.

As you wish. Yours are decisions and responsibility. ;-)

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> ru wrote:

> against. Doom-tech was always almost steam-age to me (how do those
> English get along without composite nouns?), so the rail gun just looks
> too 'clean'. Also the rail gun (like a sniper rifle) would be a true
> long-ranged (that is 400m+) weapon with a >1m barrel and a >1s firing
> delay; totally unsuitable for the doom setting (even Doom's rocket
> launchers are air/water powered, judging by the speed and lack of
> backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
> flamethrower.

....and BFG is a really a big bunch of dirty socks - very powerful
explosion. That explains why the character is unaffected by this - he has
accommodated. 😉

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

quoting Timofei Shatrov <grue@mail.ru>:
><damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> tried to confuse everyone with this
>message:
>>How about - as a rare easter egg - a completely useless "flashlight" that
>>loads one cell, to take the mickey out of Doom III?
>I think with the addition of darkness (which appearance seems likely
>after Kornel writes new LOS code) it won't be that useless.

In that case I wouldn't have it use cells, but instead take the mickey out
of D3 by permitting the player to bolt a flashlight to some weapons; this
would make finding extra lights useful.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Oneiros, February.

 

[Guest]

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quoting Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de>:
>backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically powered
>flamethrower.

If we _are_ going to have a non-Doom weapon, an actual flamethrower could
be amusing.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Oneiros, February.

 

[Guest]

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David Damerell wrote:
> quoting Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de>:
>> backblast). The plasma gun OTOH is just an electromagnetically
>> powered flamethrower.
>
> If we _are_ going to have a non-Doom weapon, an actual flamethrower
> could be amusing.


Yeah ;-). I think that can be done. In a visually nice way to...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz
DoomRL ( http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ )

 

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"Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
news:cto0ob$r7o$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> ru wrote:
>> In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>
>>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe. 1
>>>>> vote against. Any others?
>>>
>>> For.
>>
>> for.
>
> 2 to one ;-). I'll make a regular poll for it in the next Design Issues
> Post ;-)
>

Look, if there is ample opportunity to snipe away at opponents in DRL,
then that's a travesty against the doom feel. It should be rushed and
violent, not stealthy and snipe-ey.

--
Glen
L😛yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+

 

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Glen Wheeler wrote:
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in message
> news:cto0ob$r7o$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>> ru wrote:
>>> In article <yt0czghfwac8.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>, Loonie wrote:
>>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think a railgun has any place in the doom universe. 1
>>>>>> vote against. Any others?
>>>>
>>>> For.
>>>
>>> for.
>>
>> 2 to one ;-). I'll make a regular poll for it in the next Design
>> Issues Post ;-)
>>
>
> Look, if there is ample opportunity to snipe away at opponents in
> DRL, then that's a travesty against the doom feel. It should be
> rushed and violent, not stealthy and snipe-ey.

Agreed ;-)
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz
DoomRL ( http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ )