DRM and Piracy: The Vicious Circle

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A little touchy I see ovaltine. Sorry but when you say that piracy is caused by addiction for no reason other than opinion it deserves to be scrutinized. I'm not going to argue about morals because they are a completely made up and arbitrary set of opinions. Addiction on the other hand is a very real and clearly defined affliction. Saying it causes piracy would be the same as saying something like left handedness causes piracy. Unless you can actually back it up with something showing that left handed people pirate more than right handed people it deserves to be scrutinized.
You're addiction theory is flawed because it relies on two points that are highly unlikely. The first, which I'm very prone to argue about so just deal with it or drop the topic, is the idea that video games are abnormally addictive. I say abnormally because almost anything can be addictive so it's only natural to expect that a certain number of gamers will become addicted. However based on the amount of piracy and your theory that it's caused mostly by video game addicts it would indicate an enormously huge % of gamers being addicted. I find that theory appalling.
The second part of your theory that is flawed is the assumption that video game addicts would be pirating like crazy. In reality there's no reason to believe this. In cases where we know of real game addiction the addicts tend to be deeply locked into a single game. A clear sign of a game addict is somebody who spends a lot of time playing games but only plays a very few number of games. This doesn't fit the mold of piracy.
Also why do you think game addicts would necessarily turn to stealing to "get their fix"? With drug use you are already dealing with an illegal activity so increased illegal activities of other forms are only natural. But gaming is legal even if addicted, so it's better to compare it to other legal addictions. Do smokers or alcoholics have abnormally high tendencies to steal their fix? No not really. So why would gamer addicts?


Just one separate point I want to clear up. In my anecdote about the pirating-pastor my intent was not to say that this person had some moral high ground which we should all abide by just because he is a person of faith. I personally would laugh at that very notion. My point was that here was somebody who I can vouch for as truly trying to live an honest life but pirated music out of pure ignorance. Had the idea even occurred to him that he was stealing I’m certain he would not of done it. In reality there is no actual “pastor”, I just combined the idea of the many people whom I’ve known who’ve downloaded music without even given a thought as to whether or not what they were doing was theft. They do not account for all piracy or even most, but even software, music and movie companies readily acknowledge that ignorance or at least complacence accounts for a large amount of piracy. A lot more than addiction.
 
There have been plenty of studies done to suggest that video games are addictive, its hardly a baseless opinion.

Do smokers or alcoholics have abnormally high tendencies to steal their fix? No not really. So why would gamer addicts?

Um, did you happen to miss the many many arrests in Canada in the last year related to contraband tobacco? Not to mention Benson and Hedges getting ... what was it a 3 BILLION dollar fine for selling contraband tobacco? lol.

Alcoholics.. well lets see; I live in a city where i'm within walking distance of at least 5 bootleggers - they illegally sell alcohol to people DESPERATE for the satisfaction of alcohol; however i'm unclear as to whether or not its illegal to /buy/ alcohol from a bootlegger, I suspect it isn't though. More to the point though, I would hardly find it unlikely to discover that alcoholics do something illegal at some point or another to acquire they liquor - given that being a real alcoholic is an incredibly expensive habit unless you like to drink mouthwash.
 
Most games I think target a teenage demographic. Teenagers are not the wealthiest segment of of our society and have lots of time to crack games, etc. As gamers are getting older, there aren't as many adult oriented titles. I think game companies should pull their heads out of the sand and figure out where the money is they can actually get to and start writing games accordingly.
 
I think they should do away with SecuROM/Starforce, because as others have pointed out it does little more than punish paying customers.

As I stated earlier in the thread if I recall correctly, STEAM is a good DRM program - everything else is pretty much borderline dysfunctional from the get-go.
 


What other objection could there be? Let's see: 1. It is known to seriously f*** up systems from time to time.
2. It is known to keep someone who has bought that thing in question legally from re-installing a game when the game in question has gotten corrupted or a person has had to uninstall it for various reasons.
3. DRM has been known to act as spyware on your system, sending information back to developers that I do not want them to know because they have no business knowing it (what disc-emulation software I am using, where I am browsing on the internet, etc.).

Frankly, DRM is never going to stop piracy. What will? Well, in the FAR future, we will finally go to a system where there will be no such thing as money anymore, so piracy will disappear all on it's own.
In the immediate future, what is going to stop DRM? Lawsuits by consumers who have legitimately bought the things in question, only to find out that the 'cracked' version has more functionality and is easier to use (i.e. you don't have to have the disk in the drive while you are playing the game in question, the one kind of DRM that seriously TWERKS me off because I don't always want to have to carry 10 disks to play my games).
The realization by the product makers that they are losing money because DRM is so easily cracked and so quickly cracked, that it is just an extremely HUUUUUUUUGE waste of money.
Finally, the real answer in the immediate future to piracy is that game, music, movie developers will realize after numerous fights with consumers that they are overcharging for their products ($20 bucks a CD anyone?) and they will finally lower their prices to a point where piracy isn't worth it anymore, even for the commercial pirates.
 
piracy is not caused by an addiction to gaming. It is the direct result of a low risk to reward ratio and a large percentage of the target audience having more time than money to dedicate to the hobby.

The surplus of time means that they will want to fill it playing more games. The absence of money means that they need to find alternative ways of obtaining those games if they want to play them. The result is piracy. It really is a rather simple relationship to figure out.

Last I checked, EA's DRM still has limited installs and requires to you contact their customer service if you ever have a need to install it more than 3 times. And on top of that their customer service line has no obligation to allow you to install it again and they are notoriously unhelpful people. I will not buy any game with those restrictions for anything more than what I consider fair RENTAL prices. I will not however pirate it either. EA just won't get my money.
 
One sentiment I keep on hearing against DRM is that it hurts the honest customer but not the pirate. Well how fair is it to the honest paying customer to just allow others to have the same thing you paid $50 for, for free?

That's neither here nor there. I don't give a rip whether someone else is playing the same game as me, whether they stole it or not. I also don't whine when someone buys something for cheaper than I got either. That's life.

My concern is whether I own what I buy. If I pay, I get to play. Anything else is irrelevant to whether I am willing to pay my money over.


Is locking my front door vigilantism? No, of course not. Although there are laws to protect me from burglars, it is entirely right and proper that I can take actions to protect my own property in the first place. This is how publishers view DRM.

No. And I would agree that simple copy protection is akin to locking your door. But the new generation DRM does much more than that. A better comparison would be that you put a lock on your new house's door, and can never legally sell the house again (thanks to irrevocable activation limits). And the lock transmits information to the vendor. They won't say what information either. And the lock won't allow some of your old friends in the house either or it'll lock YOU out too.

I've made the point before, I have no issues with 'insert cd' copy protection: it is this new regime I oppose because it violates basic consumer rights, and is IMO, truly a disguised attempt to switch from a product buisness model to a rental business model. That's fine if they want to try it honestly, but don't lie about it. Also, it REQUIRES internet connectivity for games with zero online content. Frankly, that's a big problem for folks with no internet, or dialup-only.

But Steam and Stardockare great examples of how additional DRM can be better for both the game companies and the gamers. CD checksand Keys while not too bad can still be a pain and have limitations

I'm told that Stardock allows you to buy and play the game without an internet connection. My experience with Steam was quite different. You keep saying that playing without cd is such a good thing, hence steam is positive for the gamer. But you are not acknowledging that the same would be true without any DRM at all. And just because YOU might have broadband, a large chunk of the market does not. Any system, like Steam, that requires broadband to be usable is simply reducing the size of the market.

I'm not saying that online activations are bad, just that MANDATORY online activations are bad. Do you not have any sense of sympathy to non-broadband gamers?

God help you if you ever move to a rural area in the future. Actually, I bet if YOU had to deal with not being able to legally play games any more, you would be hollering just as loudly as some of us are.
 
piracy is not caused by an addiction to gaming. It is the direct result of a low risk to reward ratio and a large percentage of the target audience having more time than money to dedicate to the hobby.

- a valid opinion, with amusing correlations to the psychology of addictions; but having a low risk-to-reward ratio just means there are less barriers, making it easier for people to throw themselves at the gaming which devours their time.

The surplus of time means that they will want to fill it playing more games. The absence of money means that they need to find alternative ways of obtaining those games if they want to play them. The result is piracy.

There is a big difference between hobbyists and people who spend every free moment of their time practicing a "hobby" - I never have once said that every person who steals is an addict, nor did I say that every addict is a thief; what I am saying is that there is definitely a correlation between people with addiction problems (in any form whether it is drugs, alcohol, smokes, or yes even gaming) and theft to support these habits.

Piracy is stealing, and stealing is a crime any way you cut it; there is no damn grey area - its theft in just as much of a way that shoplifting a game, movie, or CD from a retail counter. Again, is every shoplifter an addict? Doubtful. Are they stealing to suppliment their lifestyle in some way? Certainly.
 

Sounds like you just want someone to come out and agree with you, as though your entire argument is some universal truth that we're all denying.

Rob Wright suggests you simply don't play if you're going to pirate, which causes the same effect on the gaming industry - a lack of sales. Do I pirate games, or do I simply not play them? The industry's numbers aren't precise enough to determine that. :)
 

"As long as I'm on the fence about everything in my life, I'll always be right!"
 


There is no truly right or wrong answer on certain topics, there are merely more productive ones. I have found that you can make a lot more progress getting people to accept one another's position if you share some views with each side. If you can understand why the pirates pirate, then you can more easily get them to understand the opposition to that behavior. If you can agree with the reasons not to pirate then you can get the anti-pirates to at least see why the pirates are doing what they are doing. It allows for a more calm and rational discussion. The more people who trend towards the middle, the less the debate turns into simply a series of contradictions.

It isn't so much a matter of saying I'm right and you are wrong. It is a matter of saying Here is where I believe the rational response lies and it is because of X points made by side A and Y points made by side B.
 

I think what you really meant was "As with all things, compromise lies in the middle." In the context of discussion I think both sides do present valid points, but I can't help but be a bit disgusted in other (more black and white) arguments, generally relating to science, where people take that same sort of stance essentially diluting the truth, getting a sort of murky, mixed view of reality that isn't supported at all by the evidence simply for the sake of being "in the middle" and not taking a polarized viewpoint.
 
Truth was the wrong word for me to use there. Though I would pick the word progress over compromise. While both are the case, progress is the goal, compromise is merely the method.
 
I read reviews of Sins of a Solar Empire. I liked what I read. I pirated the game. I tried it and liked what I saw. I went to EB and bought a copy. Worth every penny. Did I have to buy it, no. But I wanted to support the company for making such a good game. This is the third game ive pirated thats made/published by Stardock and the third game ive bought made/published by Stardock. While im sure not everyone does this, I view piracy as a unofficial "try before you buy" concept. If the game is junk, I uninstall it, delete it, and move on. I didnt waste $50 only to be disappointed.
 
DRM in pc gaming does not protect the publisher nor does it help the product. It often negatively effects the performance in games and some of the anti piracy meathods have been proven to damage hardware. I paid big money for my rig and I own the hardware. The software I purchase should be tested safe and should not reduce my experience at all and it should be behind the scenes and not make me have a headache trying to get a game I bought to work.

Steam is fine with me..Starforce and secure rom suck and hurt the industry.

I download demos to try out games. I pass on drm I do not agree on. I have to do a lot of searching to find what companies are using. It should be listed on the box and let the consumer be aware of what is going on his/her rig.

DRM costs money, doesn't do what it is intended to do and only damages the paying customers product. Piracy is a problem but you need a smart solution not one that has a proven track record of failure.

Publisher want to make money...put the time in the product it deserves to make it a solid polished product and you know what...it sells and you make money and do not have to blame piracy for the loss of capital BS. Crappy games get what they deserve...poor sales. Buggy games etc...that comes from poor management, testing etc. No one fault but the publishers who usually force a product to go out before it is ready.
 
Just read the whole thread, and i have decided to put my paw on it.

The discussion was great with both sides posting with somewhat flameless "arguments".
I kinda enjoyed that. Now lets all say out loud:

"The Path of Less resistivity is followed by all the ramblers" - Thundgot

Quoting Razor512:
1080P DRM HD content requires at least
# Minimum CPU:
* Intel® Core%u2122 Duo T2400 1.83 GHz
* AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.0 GHz

# Recommended CPU:
* Intel: Core Duo T2500 2.0 GHz, Core Duo E6400 2.13 GHz, Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4 GHZ, Core 2 Duo 5500 1.66 GHz, or higher
* AMD: AMD Athlon 64 FX-60 2.6 GHz, AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ 2.2 GHz, AMD Turion%u2122 64 X2 TL-60 2.0 Ghz, or higher
# 512 MB system memory or higher (1 GB recommended)
# VGA Chipset: please ensure your VGA chipset supports hardware acceleration
# 128 MB VGA VRAM or higher (256 MB recommended)
# Graphics Cards:
* Minimum:
NVIDIA GeForce® 7600, ATI Radeon X1600
* Recommended:
NVIDIA GeForce 8400, ATI Radeon HD 2400 or higher

Non DRMed 1080P content
800MHz CPU
videocard with hardware acceleration

This is somewhat true, but in HD video business the things are very messy atm. you got blue ray, enhanced DVD is popping like popcorn, x.264 encoding, and that Chinese standard i don't remember atm. But ultimatly, people will choose Enhanced DVD or x.264. Because is the cheapest and most flexible. I know this is somwhat unrelated but please keep up with me, it is important for my point. Xvid and Divx were very successful because of those points too. Cheap and Easy.
Same with MP3. it because a standard for digital media, not because it was the best, but because it was cheap, easy and pretty much defined at the time.

Now, we see that DRM in the case of Blue Ray, is damaging the experience provided by somewhat similar standards only at less than half of the total cost, with somewhat the same experience. Blue-ray is not being accepted so good, and if you cut the numbers of PS3 out there, you get the real acceptance of blue-ray. Witch is ridiculous.

So we should conclude that DRM should be transparent.

Next to the TOP 10 List of sold games, Quoting Acid88 on this one:

First of all, i'll post August 3rd to 9th US NPD Sales Charts (PC GAMES):
1. WoW: Battle Chest
2. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe
3. World Of Warcraft
4. Nancy Drew: The Phantom Of Venice
5. Spore Creature Creator
6. Diablo Battle Chest
7. Warcraft III Battle Chest
8. WoW: Burning Crusade
9. The Sims 2 Ikea Home Stuff
10. Call of Duty 4

Analysis of the TOP ten Sales, it is my analysis of the games, i might not be 100% correct:

DRM analysis

1 - Serial, Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
2 - Standart DRM, CD-Check, copy-check. Almost Invisible to Original copy players.
3 - Serial, Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
4 - I am not familiar with this one, but i guess CD-Key and CD-check.
5 - Heavy DRM
6 - CD-Key, and CD-check. But you dont need the CD when running the game in the drive. Only for the CD-Check.
7 - CD-Key, and CD-check. But you dont need the CD when running the game in the drive. Only for the CD-Check.
8 - Warden program, but almost invisible DRM. You can find this game in Digital and traditional distributions.
9 - Standart DRM, CD-Check, copy-check. Almost Invisible to Original copy players.
10 - Serial, copy-check, CD-Check. Light DRM.

Year of Launch, in case of compilation, referring to the earliest date of launch of the contained software:

1 - November 23, 2004
2 - September 14, 2004
3 - November 23, 2004
4 - July 8, 2008
5 - June 18, 2008 ? (not quite sure here, feel free to correct me)
6 - January 2, 1997 (i know it is a battlechest, but the first software there is over 10 years)
7 - July 2002
8 - January 16, 2007
9 - June 26, 2008
10 - November 6, 2007

My next conclusions won't be based on if a game is good or bad, that is a opinion. And opinion can generate stupid discussions.
Ok, after checking this 3 lists we can conclude the following points.

■ Low DRM games, or invisible DRM games sell better and for longer.
■ Games can have a bigger life cycle than just 6 months.
■ PC gamers go towards multi-player games or with multi-players capabilities.
■ PC gamers don't like high-end, cutting edge, TAXING graphics engines.
■ With Blizzard dominating the charts, Self-publishing developers might be a evolution in Gaming.
■ The Majority of PC Gamers like to buy their games in the traditional distribution.
■ PC Gaming is alive and well, because if it was not, we would seen only recent games in the TOP 10. Meaning only a core of gamers would buy. Having games that span through the years in the TOP 10 means that PC Gaming is almost opened to anybody that have a PC.

This is more or less a factual discussion.

If you going to say Crysis didn't sell much, we can see why. It has a high-end taxing engine.
If you going to say Assassins Creed didn't sell much, we can see why. It doesn't have multi-player
If you going to say Bioshock didn't sell much, we can see why. It has heavy DRM.

Mates, im gonna add more to the discussion later (this will be a long post), but most distributors complain about their games not selling is because they are not listening to the consumer. Or not listening enough.

 
Continuation :

From a selling point, Traditional Distribution Channels or Digital Distribution channels are important. Remember the first sentence i quote from Thundgot ? Well, some of us likes to buy via digital distributors, others from traditional distribution.
Both ways should be Open to both channels. World of Warcraft is sold in both ways and it tops this charts with the game, a expansion and a battle chest.

This should be fairly obvious. EA is behaving like a blockbuster chain, when people are prefering pay-per.view or video streaming. Its model is getting outdated. Blizzard teach us a lesson also, that Self-publishing distributors is the way to go. It is a fairly old company (in gaming market at least) that is very successful in most games it commercialize. Diablo Battle Chest surprised me to be so up to the top, or that it even exists, but might be result of a horizontal management.

This should be a heads up for in modus operandi of the game companies.

Piracy and DRM:

This is what being contested here. In this post at least. Piracy and DRM exists since software exists. That might be in the form of a serial key or in the form of game manual. Piracy always existed, from the copy command to PCTools Hexadecimal hashing. Both will always co-exist. But i guess the main problem isn't here. In every platform there is at least some form of piracy. There always will be. Like DRM.

When a company says that it is going away from PC gaming, because of piracy, i take that as:

1 - The Grass is always greener on the other side. (Consoles)
2 - We can't make multi-player games
3 - We can't distribute digitally.
4 - We don't like to waste time to develop to the different possible platforms (ATI,Nvidia, XP, Vista,Mac, 32 vs 64 bits)

It is ok !! Not all companies can do to all platforms and all types of games !! If one leaves more room for other games to thrive !!

But don't tell me your going away because of piracy. You get more piracy in the consoles. So far only PS3 has avoided it, but hell, there are few games for the PS3, it is hard to code for it, it is on a different media than the others, and in Wii vs XBOX 360 vs PS3, the PS3 is trailing the other two.

And PS3 isn't fully backwards compatible. It is a closed environment, it should be fully backwards compatible. It sets a horrible example. In PC you can still play Cat and Frogger in Windows Vista 64Bits. Just need to use DosBox.

So, come tell me that piracy hurts gaming. Partially ill agree.
So, come tell me that Heavy DRM will save your game. Ill tell you it wont top the charts or won't sell well.
So, come tell me that PC Gaming is dead. I recommend you lay-off the weed, because we are many and it is running out.

Analysis over.
 
I'm sure that many of you remember MechWarrior, it came in several flavors and required the disk to play, I still have MW4 Vengence and Mercenaries and Black Knight exp, I never saw a NoCD patch for the game and you couldn't use Alcohol or Daemon tools to emulate the disk, so what happened to the rest of the gaming world, was that the last game that got it right- heaven forbid
 
Radnor, you can't extrapolate anything about digital distribution from NPD stats because they don't track most if any digital distribution sales. Their numbers are limited to the few retailers who actually publish their sales numbers. Otherwise I mostly agree with your findings.

Number 13, There is a no CD crack for MW4, I've used it way back when the game came out. I'm not sure what you are going on about there. I have never played a game for which there was not a no CD crack of some variety.
 


I do agree with you, but that is the sample available. I guess the list would change alot, but we would still have more or so the same scenario. I wanted basically trace a scenario, and i had a sample, flawed, like all samples.

It is just a sample, but i "think" it was enough to get some conclusions. But if anybody could get more hard numbers, hell, would be great.

Edit: With more numbers it would be excelent. More conclusions could be taken, and explaining why some games just don't sell. Ive we mixed the numbers and made 2 TOP10 or a TOP20 i can assure you that we would have a handful of surprises.
 
Consumers in English speaking countries may not have aware. In Taiwan, which once dominate the Chinese PC game market in the 90s (including china mainland, hong kong, singapore, malaysia..etc). There are many many classic and innovative PC game being created in that time, when the PC game industry blossom.

However looking at the market now, 90% of the local made PC games are online MMORPGs, MMOactions, MMO strategy, not that MMO is not good, but the problem is, they run on similar looking graphics, similar rules, and similar concepts...which I have been stop buying for almost 5 years. I miss the old single player focused classics.

Why this shift happen, I guess one reason is piracy, with single player games being easily pirated. and MMOs are much more difficult to pirate due to internet and the connection to game server. (ofcoz there are pirated server but its no match in stability and player quality to the official server)

This maybe one trend for the PC game industry to avoid piracy in the cost of sacrificing single player games.
 
radnor,

it seems name effect in here.. 4 out of 10 is warcraft relate, half of top ten list is make by blizzard. now, everyone know blizzard is AAA company by now so they got less worry about craapy game. also when you play warcraft RTS, its much easier to got hack on WoW, after that is the WoW exp.

also you forgot to say is price.. battle chest is 29.99 and come with complete set of multiple game + exp. its damn good deal! as blizzard battle chest its like 3~4 AAA title in one box.

i dont think more ppl buying blizzard becuz it got less DRM, but more due to price.
lets put me as example.. i play warcraft2 since kali day (oldest TCP/IP internet gaming network) after few years i want to play warcraft2 again as retro.. but i lost the original floppy disk. what i did? i go out and buy that 29.99 battle chest with update gaming network (battlenet). would i done the same if the battle chest is 59.99?? very unlikely.

there also big factor pc vs console.. with pc normal you play in small monitor which mean you play alone. but console is in large TV set which mean you play with family and friends. ppl would more likely to buy console game becuz can they share the fun with other.

also.. i dont think MMO is the reason why TW dont product single player game.. its more due to over production of H game. H game make way more $$$ and cost alot less. the only problem is there no quality in it.
 
I know my analysis is flawed, becaus eof the quality of the sample. If Publishers/gaming Alliance or whatever released numbers, much better conclusions, and more specific can be done.



It is not easy to hack wow. This if you intend to play of course. They ban some hundred accounts monthly basis only on that. The Blizzard brand is selling a lot, because it is a known brand with quality games.



This means games are mostly over priced. And means with a horizontal logic (Blizzard is Developer/Publisher) you can decrease price and increase revenue. That is the biggest difference. Blizzard control and experiment with their roster of possible products. I doubt Ubisoft could launch a Prince of Persia (SoT, WW, T2T) at 29.99 because of publishing rights.

So we got model adding to my analysis. Developers should self-distribute and use all channels of distribution.




MMO is a novelty, in the Western mainstream arena, and it was always big in Asia.
 
I didnt buy bioshock or mass effect and I didnt download them either, do to DRM on both . So there is two games that bioware lost sells the legal way!!! Just because of the nazis style DRM's out I dont buy games on release day anymore I wait for the reviews of people who bought them