DS ahead of PSP in 3rd party support

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"drax" <drax1313@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2h0snkF7opr8U1@uni-berlin.de>...

> Ok, he was saying it wouldn't need further compression. He was arguing that
> DVD movies would fit on the 1.8GB if you cut out the extras. This is simply
> not true.

What's the resolution of the PSP screen? My guess is that at a really
low resolution a DVD would fit in 1.8 GB pretty easily.

The spec I saw said the screen was 480x272 pixels with 24-bit full
color. At that size 1.8GB for a movie is quite doable. Isn't that
video CD quality? Hmmm... Nope, it's slightly higher than VCD which is
352x240 (thanks Google!) Still I'd expect you could fit an entire
movie in less than 1GB and have .8 GB left over for special features.

- Jordan
 
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Ryan E. <tron_1982@yahoo.com> writes:
> You're jumping the gun already writing off PSP as second-rate hardware
> and a third-rate media player.

Er, well, it kinda makes sense to do so, doesn't it? The PS1 & PS2 were
basically second-rate hardware and in the case of the PS2, a third-rate
media player. Why do you expect the PSP to be any different?

-Miles
--
Run away! Run away!
 
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Doug Jacobs wrote:
> In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Richard Strong <richard.strong@'remove'ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>>You must be really naive if you think movie studio executives (other than
>>Sony) will see the PSP and it's UMD format as a viable method of
>>distribution. The hand-held market is tiny compared to the movie and DVD mar
>>ket. If you want to talk about the DS's features being gimmicks then i'd
>>have to say that the movie playback on the PSP is the most expensive gimmick
>>of them all.
>
>
> I agree that this would be about as popular as buying albums on mini-disc.
>
> However, if Sony created a PC package that included a UMD writer and some
> software to convert DVDs (or other formats)... Sure, make this a separate
> package from the basic PSP package.
>
> As we've seen the popularity of hand-held digital music machines grow in
> popularity (iPod anyone?) the next logical step would be a hand-held digital
> video player.


Actually I don't think the portable DVD or movie player, etc.. will ever
see the type of popularity that something like iPod's or Walkman's etc..
have. Listening to music is something people can do while performing
numerous other tasks. You can walk, run, jog, work, etc.. all while
listening to music. It is much harder to so that with a movie/video
which requires much more of your attention to take it in and to enjoy
it. It works for something like a bus ride or subway ride to work maybe
to watch part of something, or while on lunch break and then the commute
home, but still most people would rather sitdown and take in the whole
thing at once and get the full experience. And most would rather do that
on a couch and nice Tv and all then on a small portable player. It works
for a kid in a car on a trip, something like that also. But I really
don't see that aspect (playing video/dvd/etc..) as EVER coming close to
the popularity of the portable radio/cassette/Cd/Mp3 players of past and
present. Music is just a totally different thing, and requires less of
your attention to enjoy (for the most part.)


Yes, I know that you can use your laptop to play DVDs, and
> then there's the highly illogical "portable DVD player" which costs almost
> as much as a good low-end laptop. Portable DVD players can only play
> DVDs and even the lightest laptop is still going to be close to 3 pounds
> of equipment. Something that can play games, music and videos while
> coming in under 2lbs is going to attract attention.
 
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In reply to Doug Jacobs

> I highly doubt Sony would try to simply market pre-recorded content on
> their new format after seeing how well sales of albums on mini-disc
> sold.

Sony has announced that they will have the exclusive rights to build and
own machines to create UMD media, and that everyone who wishes to
publish anything, will have to have Sony do produce the media for them.
There will be no recordables, and no burners, or anything quite like it.

Jammet
 
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"Jordan Lund" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:92dbefbe.0405190806.7417eeb2@posting.google.com...
> "drax" <drax1313@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2h0snkF7opr8U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> > Ok, he was saying it wouldn't need further compression. He was arguing
that
> > DVD movies would fit on the 1.8GB if you cut out the extras. This is
simply
> > not true.
>
> What's the resolution of the PSP screen? My guess is that at a really
> low resolution a DVD would fit in 1.8 GB pretty easily.

Your guess is wrong. PSP has a resolution of 480X272, which is actually
quite high. For comparison DVD has a resolution of 720X480. At that
resolution it would take about 5GB of space ot maintain the same level of
compression as DVD, which is double layered and offers over 9GB of space.

Therefore the PSP disc will not onlt offer half the pixels, but will also
require about twice as much compression.
Blech.

>
> The spec I saw said the screen was 480x272 pixels with 24-bit full
> color. At that size 1.8GB for a movie is quite doable. Isn't that
> video CD quality?

Have you actually seen a video CD in action? I own the Wars movie on video
CD, I ordered them Malyasia after my VCR gave out so that I could watch them
on my DVD players.

Video CD is much worse than VHS, suffers horrible compression problems, and
has a jittery picture that is incredibly distracting.

> Hmmm... Nope, it's slightly higher than VCD which is
> 352x240 (thanks Google!) Still I'd expect you could fit an entire
> movie in less than 1GB and have .8 GB left over for special features.

Sorry Jordan but that's just not realistic, not if you want any kind of
decent video quality. With that resolution and less that 2gb to work with
you are going to end up with a highly compressed images, surely full of
"compressions blocks".
 
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"Jordan Lund" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:92dbefbe.0405190806.7417eeb2@posting.google.com...
> "drax" <drax1313@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2h0snkF7opr8U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> > Ok, he was saying it wouldn't need further compression. He was arguing
that
> > DVD movies would fit on the 1.8GB if you cut out the extras. This is
simply
> > not true.
>
> What's the resolution of the PSP screen? My guess is that at a really
> low resolution a DVD would fit in 1.8 GB pretty easily.
>
> The spec I saw said the screen was 480x272 pixels with 24-bit full
> color. At that size 1.8GB for a movie is quite doable. Isn't that
> video CD quality? Hmmm... Nope, it's slightly higher than VCD which is
> 352x240 (thanks Google!) Still I'd expect you could fit an entire
> movie in less than 1GB and have .8 GB left over for special features.
>
> - Jordan

I never argued that you couldn't compress a movie to fit on the disk, I've
only said it wouldn't be DVD quality and they should be much less expensive
because of it (that and the only place you could watch it is the PSP).

drax
 
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"drax" <drax1313@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2h1lrrF841s2U1@uni-berlin.de>...

> I never argued that you couldn't compress a movie to fit on the disk, I've
> only said it wouldn't be DVD quality and they should be much less expensive
> because of it (that and the only place you could watch it is the PSP).

Knowing Sony it will probably be MORE expensive because of the
proprietary format. I'm also guessing that it will be heavily
subsidized by Sony studios since they'll control the format and reap
the profits from it. Spider-Man 2 a launch title? Quite probably.

- Jordan
 
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In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Ryan E. <tron_1982@yahoo.com> wrote:

> >Like I say, if you knew anything about DVD players, you would know that both
> >of these offer among the worst picture quality possible from a DVD player.
> >Poor quality MPEG decoders, low edn D/A converters. Ick. And they aren't
> >even capbale of progressive scan.

> Don't make presumptions about my knowledge of DVD simply to try and
> validate your teardown of the Xbox and PS2's DVD playback, both of
> which get the job done on most mainstream discs. You're not revealing
> much of anything in this thread except arrogant snobbery.

And ignorance. PS2's latest model *IS* capable of progressive scan output.
 
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"Doug Jacobs" <djacobs@shell.rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:10anf1jkq3mh050@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Ryan E. <tron_1982@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >Like I say, if you knew anything about DVD players, you would know that
both
> > >of these offer among the worst picture quality possible from a DVD
player.
> > >Poor quality MPEG decoders, low edn D/A converters. Ick. And they
aren't
> > >even capbale of progressive scan.
>
> > Don't make presumptions about my knowledge of DVD simply to try and
> > validate your teardown of the Xbox and PS2's DVD playback, both of
> > which get the job done on most mainstream discs. You're not revealing
> > much of anything in this thread except arrogant snobbery.
>
> And ignorance. PS2's latest model *IS* capable of progressive scan >
output.
>

But the original model was not. And most people have earlier models.
>
 
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"Doug Jacobs" <djacobs@shell.rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:10aln0mc1blt8ee@corp.supernews.com...
> In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Richard Strong
<richard.strong@'remove'ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > You must be really naive if you think movie studio executives (other
than
> > Sony) will see the PSP and it's UMD format as a viable method of
> > distribution. The hand-held market is tiny compared to the movie and DVD
mar
> > ket. If you want to talk about the DS's features being gimmicks then i'd
> > have to say that the movie playback on the PSP is the most expensive
gimmick
> > of them all.
>
> I agree that this would be about as popular as buying albums on mini-disc.
>
> However, if Sony created a PC package that included a UMD writer and some
> software to convert DVDs (or other formats)... Sure, make this a separate
> package from the basic PSP package.

I don't see that happening due to copyright issues. However, what I can
imagine is Sony/Columbia Pictures releasing new movies with both a DVD and a
UMD in a single case. I mean, really, how much does a single UMD cost the
manufacturer to make? A couple of dollars? And since Sony wouldn't have to
pay licensing fees to itself for the format, it could afford to put them
both together. They could release some of their most popular back catalog
titles separately on UMD, but whenever newer movies such as Spider-Man 2 are
eventually released on DVD, it would be cool to get both a UMD and DVD in
the same package. As for other movie studios, although they may be loathe to
pay Sony a fee for the UMD format, if the PSP sells well, it will be hard
for them to ignore. Think about it--if you are the head of a movie studio
and realize that there are 1 million+ PSP owners who are looking for UMD
movies, don't you want to be the first one to offer your studio's films to
that market?

> As we've seen the popularity of hand-held digital music machines grow in
> popularity (iPod anyone?) the next logical step would be a hand-held
digital
> video player. Yes, I know that you can use your laptop to play DVDs, and
> then there's the highly illogical "portable DVD player" which costs almost
> as much as a good low-end laptop. Portable DVD players can only play
> DVDs and even the lightest laptop is still going to be close to 3 pounds
> of equipment. Something that can play games, music and videos while
> coming in under 2lbs is going to attract attention.
 
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"Jordan Lund" <lundj@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:92dbefbe.0405191518.2ace0db8@posting.google.com...
> "drax" <drax1313@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2h1lrrF841s2U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
> > I never argued that you couldn't compress a movie to fit on the disk,
I've
> > only said it wouldn't be DVD quality and they should be much less
expensive
> > because of it (that and the only place you could watch it is the PSP).
>
> Knowing Sony it will probably be MORE expensive because of the
> proprietary format. I'm also guessing that it will be heavily
> subsidized by Sony studios since they'll control the format and reap
> the profits from it. Spider-Man 2 a launch title? Quite probably.
>
> - Jordan

I don't doubt that it will be more expensive, and I also think that fact
will greatly limit the popularity of PSP as a movie platform. It is very
possible that someone in my home will own a PSP, but I doubt they will be
watching movies on it. You do realize that when something is subsidized by
the company selling the product it usually means that there is little if any
profit.

drax
 
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"Android" <androvich@NOcomcastSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:45Xqc.26675$gr.2430561@attbi_s52...
>
>
> I don't see that happening due to copyright issues. However, what I can
> imagine is Sony/Columbia Pictures releasing new movies with both a DVD and
a
> UMD in a single case. I mean, really, how much does a single UMD cost the
> manufacturer to make? A couple of dollars? And since Sony wouldn't have to
> pay licensing fees to itself for the format, it could afford to put them
> both together. They could release some of their most popular back catalog
> titles separately on UMD, but whenever newer movies such as Spider-Man 2
are
> eventually released on DVD, it would be cool to get both a UMD and DVD in
> the same package. As for other movie studios, although they may be loathe
to
> pay Sony a fee for the UMD format, if the PSP sells well, it will be hard
> for them to ignore. Think about it--if you are the head of a movie studio
> and realize that there are 1 million+ PSP owners who are looking for UMD
> movies, don't you want to be the first one to offer your studio's films to
> that market?
>

There are some problems with your scenario. The first thing that comes to
mind is that sony would be making far more UMD disks of movies than there
would be PSPs to play them on, that's a money loser. Secondly, why would
anyone pay for older movies on UMD when they could get newer ones for free?
Thirdly, what motivation would a non sony movie distributor have to put
movies on UMD? If they include them for free they make nothing and still
have to pay a fee to sony. If they sell them separately they would be
competing with the free disks from sony.

drax
 
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Cool, works as a portable DVD player, too! 🙂


---
http://gamesource.groups.yahoo.com/group/playstationportable/

radeonr420@yahoo.com (R420) wrote in message news:<51488ce2.0405131932.1b1f085a@posting.google.com>...
> http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/05/13/news_6098199.html
>
> Nintendo announces 100 DS developers, 40-plus games
>
> Massive game-maker touts its portable's growing catalog, massive
> third-party support.
> Today in the Japanese press, Nintendo announced it has shipped DS
> software development kits to more than 100 companies worldwide. That
> figure puts the DS a nose ahead of the PSP for third-party support:
> Sony claims 99 developers are on board for its new handheld.
>
> So far, the DS game catalog is a varied bunch. First-party games are a
> perennial strength for Nintendo, and it's not surprising that they are
> the cornerstone of its new platform's catalog. So far, Nintendo has
> announced the following DS games:
>
> Nintendo
> Animal Crossing DS
> Mario Kart DS
> Metroid Prime: Hunters*
> Nintendogs
> PictoChat (software that lets players send instant messages and
> drawings using the DS's wireless capabilities.)*
> Super Mario 64x4
> Super Mario Bros. DS
> WarioWare Inc. DS
>
> Nintendo has a solid lineup of third party titles as well; here's a
> complete list, drawn from Japanese and American sources:
>
> Activision
> Spider-Man 2
>
> Atari
> (One title in development)
>
> Bandai
> Dragonball Z
> One Piece
> Mobile Suit Gundam Seed*
>
> Banpresto
> Dragonball Z
>
> Capcom
> Gyakutensaiban (a.k.a. Reversal of Judgment)
> MegaMan Battle Network
> Viewtiful Joe
>
> Electronic Arts
> Need for Speed
>
> From Software
> (multiple titles in development)
>
> Hudson
> Bomberman*
> (multiple titles in development)
>
> Koei
> Dynasty Warriors
>
> Konami
> Frogger 2005
> Yu-Gi-Oh!: Nightmare Troubador (tentative title)
>
> Majesco
> (One title in development)
>
> Namco
> Mr. Driller
> Pac-Pix*
> Pac 'n-Roll*
> Unnamed RPG
>
> Sega
> Project Rub
> Sonic DS (tentative title)*
>
> Square Enix
> Dragon Quest Monsters
> Egg Monster Heroes*
> Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles
>
> THQ
> SpongeBob SquarePants DS
>
> Tecmo
> Monster Rancher
> Team Ninja game (name has not been released)
>
> Ubisoft
> Rayman
>
> VU Games
> (One title in development)
>
>
>
> By Tor Thorsen, Dan Tochen -- GameSpot
> POSTED: 05/13/04 02:52PM PST
 
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In alt.games.video.sony-playstation2 Android <androvich@nocomcastspam.net> wrote:

> I don't see that happening due to copyright issues. However, what I can

What copyright issue? You are allowed to make a copy of media for your
own personal use. Maybe Sony could find a way to make the UMD writer put
something on its discs that allow it to only play in a specific player?
To me, this seems the only way Sony is going to get people to watch movies
on the PSP - at least in the begining.

> imagine is Sony/Columbia Pictures releasing new movies with both a DVD and a
> UMD in a single case. I mean, really, how much does a single UMD cost the
> manufacturer to make? A couple of dollars? And since Sony wouldn't have to
> pay licensing fees to itself for the format, it could afford to put them
> both together. They could release some of their most popular back catalog
> titles separately on UMD, but whenever newer movies such as Spider-Man 2 are
> eventually released on DVD, it would be cool to get both a UMD and DVD in
> the same package. As for other movie studios, although they may be loathe to
> pay Sony a fee for the UMD format, if the PSP sells well, it will be hard
> for them to ignore. Think about it--if you are the head of a movie studio
> and realize that there are 1 million+ PSP owners who are looking for UMD
> movies, don't you want to be the first one to offer your studio's films to
> that market?

The problem with this is that you'll need to create and buy special DVD
cases that will be able to hold both the DVD and UMD discs. Then there's
the production of the UMD disc itself. I don't know how expensive these
things will cost to produce, but consider this: Even a $1 increase to a
product's BOM (build of materials) can result in $5-10 added to the MSRP.

Even then, how many PSP units do you think will enter the market, and of
those, how many PSP owners would actually be interested in watching movies
on their PSP? Even if 5 million PSPs enter the market immediatly, and an
astounding 100% of all PSP owners start buying DVDs with UMDs packed into
them, there's still 10x the number of DVD players in the market. But
they're all going to have to pay extra for a UMD they'll never use. This
would tell me that the market for UMD movies would be flooded, causing PSP
owners to just pick UMD movies cheap off EBay, rather than buy a new copy
from the store.

I can see there being a small market for UMD rental outlets in airports,
where you could just rent a couple of movies for a few bucks or so. But
even then, I don't see there being that much revenue from such a
business. From casual observation, I would see at most 5 or 6 people
watching a DVD on a flight.

This is why I think the only real way to do this is to allow people to
create their own UMDs from their own DVDs. It shouldn't be too hard to
only allow DVDs to be used as source material, and to put a special code
on the disc that would only allow it to be played in a specific player.
This should make most copyright issues go away even though you know that
some people will crack it and/or find workarounds anyways. No system is
going to be perfect. All you can do is devise a system that makes casual
piracy enough of a hassle to deter most people, while not hampering your
customers' legitimate use (this, IMHO, is the most important point.)

This would further allow the use of ANY DVD - not just ones produced by
Sony post-PSP release. Of course, Sony would be free to release UMD
movies as well, but unless the price is $5-10/ea, I doubt they're going to
get many sales.
 
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> > I don't see that happening due to copyright issues. However, what I can
>
> What copyright issue? You are allowed to make a copy of media for your
> own personal use. Maybe Sony could find a way to make the UMD writer put
> something on its discs that allow it to only play in a specific player?
> To me, this seems the only way Sony is going to get people to watch movies
> on the PSP - at least in the begining.

How is Sony going to rationalize telling the people to go ahead and rip
stuff to UMD, while at the same time being in the anti-Mp3 bandwagon? It
ain't gonna happen.
 
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> This is why I think the only real way to do this is to allow people to
> create their own UMDs from their own DVDs. It shouldn't be too hard to
> only allow DVDs to be used as source material, and to put a special code
> on the disc that would only allow it to be played in a specific player.
> This should make most copyright issues go away even though you know that
> some people will crack it and/or find workarounds anyways. No system is
> going to be perfect. All you can do is devise a system that makes casual
> piracy enough of a hassle to deter most people, while not hampering your
> customers' legitimate use (this, IMHO, is the most important point.)


This is never gonna happen. Copy protection schemes of that nature are about
as easy to break and dry spaghetti.
 
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Kalikopela <juradoc001@hawaii.rr.com> wrote in message news:<C2aqc.54776$BG1.30769@twister.socal.rr.com>...
> And if the UMB format takes off - we'll have two giants to worry about
> in this world...
>

Not likely to happen. The format is analogous to the GameCube discs,
and I haven't seen any studios release movies for viewing on the
GameCube. Therefore it is not going to catch on as a media format for
anything other than viewing on the PSP. And does the PSP even have
audio video outputs so that it could be viewed on a TV? I would never
watch a movie on such a small screen, I'd have to hold it up close to
my face. Hmm, what would I rather do, hold a small device up to my
viewing level for several hours, or relax and sit back in my recliner
and watch on my DVD player or laptop?