Dual-core vs quad-core

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apisorder

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Jun 19, 2012
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Hi guys,

I think this may be a dumb question, so please excuse my lack of knowledge.
(Originally I was going to post this in the laptop section but since it's mainly about CPU's, I thought this is a more fitting place.)

Is quad-core necessarily better (in terms of performance) than a dual-core in a laptop?

To my understanding, most apps do not yet utilize anything more than 2 cores, so why buy a 4 core machine sporting an i7 processor, as opposed to a daul-core i5?

Another confusion I had is the low clock speed of quad-core i-series processors. Yes, they can overclock (or run in turbo mode rather) to a much higher clock, but wouldn't the initial lower clock gives a lower overall system performance? (compared an i7 processor at 1.7 Ghz as opposed to an i5 processor at 2.5 Ghz)

The last confusion I had is about ultrabooks. If the reason to have an i7 processor in a laptop is because it offers 4 cores (instead of 2 cores) and its relatively larger cache, why settle for an ultrabook which currently only sports a dual-core i7 processor? How is it that Apple is able to squeeze a regular quad-core i7 processor in an ultrabook that PC can't, or won't?

Thanks,


Apisorder
 
Solution
2
1st- the need of 2 or 4 core depends on what you want to do with it, not how many apps use 2+ core. So tell us what you will do/do with your laptop and we'll try to help you do the best choice.

2nd- if laptop's procesors are sow low clocked is (imo) because power consumption. You juste have one battery to power the whole thing so if all laptops had fx 8150 @ 4.5 Ghz I don't think the battery could power the rest of the components. Another major issue with laptops is the heat. You can't put an enormous 8 heatpipes heatsink or a watercooling system in a laptop! so they have to clock them lower and btw i dont think you can overclock a mobile processor or if you can, i wouldn't try.

3rd- I hope your not buying from apple. There is so many...
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Yes, it only has two cores, so it isn't a "full" quad core. You won't see a big difference unless you heavily multitask or encode videos or run a few dozen filters in Photoshop, but every extra bit of performance counts.

 
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Hi Idonno,

While they are ultrathin, and hence have less open space, are Ultrabooks necessarily poorly ventilated? I heard that Apple has heat dissipation problems, but do Ultrabooks suffer from this too? (Asus, Gigabyte, Sony, Toshiba, etc)

Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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Intel has produced a new line of processors specifically to address the heat issue and power consumption (which are closely related) Apple was producing these ultra thin type of notebooks before lintel did this which is probably why they had heat problems.

But to be honest I really don't like talking about Apple I have absolutely no respect for that company or it's products so, I'm definitely not the right person to ask. :sol:
 
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Hi Bwlane,

Believe it or not, even on my 2-year old i5 laptop, with just 8G of RAM, ATI VGA, and just 7200 RPM HDD, it runs fine.

Of course, I am sure an i7, a Nvidia Geforce VGA, or a SSD would make a difference, but yes, it can run and quite smoothly too.


Apisorder
 
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if you really are using it as a laptop and always in meetings and moving to a different room every few hours or actually having to hold it up and type and going to the airport every few days, yes the extra weight matters.
Ultrabooks have a peak power ceiling, and to meet that you can't stuff in the fastest processors.

However, it is true that many people get an ultrabook as fashion/design though, but there is nothing wrong with that either. Whole industries are based on fashion.


As far as the previous processor efficiency discussion . You need to look at the specific offerings and research, but in this case, the slowest quadcore will use less electrons then the fastest dualcore, and so it should match up with pricing too.
The most expensive processor choice will use the least electrons to do the task.

However, you do need to keep in mind the rest of the laptop is a huge role too; and how efficient is the rest of the laptop: battery, mobo, screen etc etc.
So just take the analysis to mean that choosing slow processor does not mean you are saving battery. At worst they are all about even, at best the more expensive faster processors actually may save a few electrons.


As far as the performance gains. again depends on what tasks you were doing. If you were already smooth, then you have CPU to spare and maybe you shouldn't spend extra money for it.
If you're on the fence, and the money is tight then don't get it. If you can spare it, then splurge.

SSD over HDD though you definitely should do if you have the option and it is within your budget and are not being excessively overcharged for it. I would go for that option over the i5/i7 decision.

 
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^^

Since you're not the "average" user, you're going to be writing A LOT because of Adobe Premiere, and Photoshop. I'm not sure if you know this or not, but an SSD has limited write cycles, so it's a better choice to get a larger HDD and beef up on the CPU+GPU.
 
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when the ssd fails, it may tend to take out the whole drive. whereas when an HDD fails, potentially it will fail more gracefully, so you may get warning signs to save data; or at least have the option to take it to specialists for data recovery.

The write leveling issue is not a big deal for a single user, and is overblown. You should expect at least 5years of life, and more likely doubledigit years+. the controller will also track the usage so it will not come out of the blue. Even being used in continuous operation 24/7 by datacenters, they last 1-2years.

In typical actual laptop use, an HDD in service for 5years will also potentially be at danger of failing from physical abuse or it's moving parts, so it's not superior in the durability category either.
I'd actually call it a tie.
More physical ruggedness from no moving parts in exchange for the write endurance issue.
 
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Hi amuffin,

I heard of two kinds of limitations on SSD writes.


Are you referring to the number of writes before a secure erase must take place to ensure data security (prevent reaching the 5% bottleneck, at which time the controller may no longer recognize the disk and shut it down, rending total data loss forever)?

Or are you referring to the number of writes in SSD's lifetime? (which is why some software like O&O defrag minimize unnecessary writes to SSD to prolong its lifetime.)

I think the former can be easily dealt with, as long as we periodically backup the SSD contents to a separate disk, secure erase, then recopy the contents back. Once a SSD is shut down, it can only be taken back to the manufacturer for a new one, but there is simply no way to get the data back.

The latter, however, I can't think of a way to deal with it, and, if this is the case you are referring to, then SSD is indeed not ideal for my use. Is this what you are referring to?



Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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Hi raytseng,


How does the SSD controller warn the user (me!) about SSD use? (since I haven't been actually using a SSD, I can only imagine 😛)

I asked because I read using different software for S.M.A.R.T. on SSD gives very different data.

Back to HDD, the one installed on my laptop: are there specific software you recommend for evaluating the health of my HDD? I tried some but none is made specifically for a laptop HDD and I found them rather not very useful.

In short, you are saying that SSD has write issues and when it fails it tends to "kill" the whole drive, whereas HDD is physically more durable and when it fails it tend to allow partial data recovery, right? But are you saying that for a single user as myself, even with excessive writes from media productivity (Adobe CS apps) and 24/7 reads/writes from P2P, it doesn't really matter if I use SSD or HDD? (personally I am a little worried about what you said when data centers using SSD 24/7 lasts only 1-2 years.)

Is there a way to make SSD lifetime as long as the HDD, despite very frequent write requirement?


Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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your fears are misplaced and you are misinterpreting data
1-2years in a datacenter under continous 100% usage is a massive amount of data. Think of it like storing the last 256 or 128gb of the entire internet in a scrolling fashion.
Datacenters have redundancy and no single failure will bring it down and the SSDs are the frontline cache for the real data behind it.

If you are fearing this, you should also note that the rest of your computer also has lifespans too. Your CPU is rated only for about 10-20years of usage. The other parts like screen have lifespans too.

So long story short. Don't worry about your current generation SSD getting "used" up. Lots of people have been punishing their SSD day-in day-out and still have plenty of life left.

If you are interested go ahead and read up on the latest SSD articles for the way different SSD algorithms are setup, but as a USER, nowadays you don't have to do anything for care/feeding of the SSD, it's all automated as long as you followed the basic setup steps. Just get any of the recent SSDs and not some old dusty model from 5years ago; and you will be fine.

If it comes down to it, should you get near the end of your life some years out, you'll probably want a new computer or at least the latest and newest SSD anyway.

If anything, the SSD getting completely used up probably meant it saved you some large chunks of time. Surely all those hours is worth the cost of replacing it.
Otherwise, it is like buying a new car then never using it and continously "saving" it for the future.

It is not like you are sending your laptop to Mars where newegg doesn't deliver. (NASA does need specialized robust equipment just for this reason).

There are tools like ssdlife which will display the statistics from S.M.A.R.T and give you estimate of how much your SSD is "used up" based on each specific SSD model's algorithm and published numbers .
But keep in mind this is just numerical estimates on other magic numbers.
Any drive SSD or HDD could fail at any time, or could last much longer than the estimate even when the counter gets to zero.
 
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Intel producing (binning) ultra-low-voltage variants for ultraportable/palmtop notebooks and other applications requiring lower-power CPUs dates at least all the way back to the P3-Coppermine days some 13 years ago. Intel's new quest to promote ultrabook is nothing more than Intel's newest spin for churning out ULV-binned chips, this time as a future mainstream option instead of ultraportable devices formerly aimed mainly at and priced mainly for executives and on-the-go professionals.

IBM was making a nice subnotebook about 12 years ago that had a 10-11" 1440x900 screen, ULV P3 CPU and not much larger than an iPad3... way ahead of today's ultrabook fad.
 
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Yea, that sounds about right actually. When I see what I wrote I was just basically regurgitating the crap that intel has spread to the media. I really don't like ultrabook style notebooks anyway regardless of what their called or what brand name is on them.
 
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Can't say I like the new spin on the old concept that much either. However, people are getting their small-screen baptism on expensive tablets and smartphones which will likely leave many people yearning for physical keyboards at a modest size, weight and cost penalty over equivalent tablets so I would not be too surprised if the ultrabook respin picked up if prices dropped a few hundred dollars, which might happen next year.
 
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Hi InvalidError,


Why are bigger Ultrabooks, like 14" and 15" models, not more common? Most models are 13" or smaller.

With that said, while I can understand buyers of 14" and 15" laptops are usually looking for a desktop replacement, meaning with a regular-voltaged processor and usually a discrete VGA, why are these still 14" and 15" Ultrabook models? I really cannot think of any use for them. True, they don't suffer the performance issues that CULV suffered but they are probably still too heavy for on-the-go and definitely don't offer the performance a desktop replacement can, so what can the targeted market for these larger Ultrabooks?


I also don't understand why Ultrabooks don't normally have a discrete VGA. Is it because of heat dissipation issues?


Thanks,

Apisorder
 
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Hi raytseng,


Just to confirm, even if my disk is always 70-80% full, and with about 30% of the entire disk' contents constantly being written to (basically I download gigs of stuff, watched them, and delete them so I can have more space for new ones) on a daily basis, a SSD is still as good as a HDD?

I would think my habit of the laptop this way would use up the write cycles pretty fast. In this case, do you think a HDD will be better?


Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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One of Intel's objectives behind their Ultrabook concept is ~8h per charge to compete against tablets that have 8-10h autonomy per charge, which is nearly impossible to match with discrete GPU or a 14" screen without using larger battery packs.

Who would do any amount of remotely serious gaming on a 11" Ultrabook anyway?
 
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What is the write endurance of current NAND flash? Most manufacturers quote at least 100k write-erase cycles.

If you fill your SSD and delete it 10 times per day, 100k cycles is enough to last nearly 30 years.

What I would worry about for SSD wear is swapfile and temporary files such as browser cache which may be rewritten a lot more often.
 
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yes, i'd still get an SSD, even if you're downloading and watching DVDrips continuously 24/7.

I'd also use it for my swapfile and temp files. That is the ideal purpose of the SSD to have it for quick I/O things. Why people decide to move those to their HDD to me defeats the purpose of having the SSD.

It's your computer, get whatever makes you feel comfortable. But i think it's pretty clear what I'd do, and I'll leave it at that.

 
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Hi InvalidError,

I guess ideally if I had a 2-drive laptop, with one SSD and one HDD, I can put the OS and the apps on the former, while the latter be for data storage.

I will also change paths of the swapfile and tem files to the latter drive. I thought SSD eliminates the use of some of these though? (I read that with SSD, tricks that can be done with HDD to speed up the system is not longer necessary when using a SSD)

But honestly it isn't that easy to find a 2-drive laptop (not to mention its price tag).



Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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As you said yourself, most people looking at 14+" laptops are looking at desktop-replacement.

Since there are plenty of those in the $300-600 range, a $800 "ultrabook" with worse specs on almost everything except battery life and weight would be a tough sell.

As for SSDs, getting enough RAM to be able to turn swapping off would be one way to go about it as long as you do not need programs that insist on reserving space directly from the swapfile.
 
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Hi InvalidError,

"As for SSDs, getting enough RAM to be able to turn swapping off would be one way to go about it as long as you do not need programs that insist on reserving space directly from the swapfile."

Are Adobe programs one of those that insist on reserving space directly from the swapfile? In my knowledge, they are, at least Photoshop does.


Thanks,


Apisorder
 
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I have not tried running swap-less in years so I have not kept tabs on which applications cause Windows to pop up a notification about creating a swapfile due to an application requiring virtual memory.

One thing Photoshop and other applications that manipulate large files do is allow users to configure a 'scratch' directory where they store temporary files such as undo/redo buffers instead of using RAM/swap for that.
 
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