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nottheking
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- Jan 5, 2006
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This isn't exactly news, since I recall this feature being boasted about near the beginning of the year. Given the number of other heavily disappointing developments made for the game, (such as "we're reducing spells from the complex system used in TES I-IV to an FPS-clone") this is one of the few elements that are relevant to GAMEPLAY (and not just "shiny (console-level) graphics") that is a potential positive worth looking forward to.
Of course, the open question is how well it'll turn out; one must remember that this won't be the first TES game to feature a theoretically infinite number of quests, which can give us an idea of what might be possible. The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996) featured a quest system that, for all but the main questline, generated "randomized" quests; each started with one of a base "type" of quest, (track down a renegade guild mage, deliver a ransom for a kidnapped child, help a researcher find a long-lost magical relic) which then randomized all the variables to fit, (after all, the game had >1,000 cities and >2,000 dungeons) but ALSO could randomize things that could seriously alter the quest. (for instance, the relic might truly be lost forever; the quest would be adjusted so you'd discover this and reach an end there) Similarly, each quest could be played differently, with significant choices that branched to different results. (for instance, you could opt to hunt down the kidnappers and rescue the child... Or just later steal the ransom money back. Or you could instead pretend the renegade escaped you, hiding his location in return for further quest opportunities from him)
All in all, Daggerfall had 216 possible "quest types" here, so by no means did the "randomness" simply feel get feeling stale particularly quickly. With luck, Skyrim's so-called "RadiantStory" will manage to at least match this. We can safely presume that MUCH of the workings will have to be the same: the game will have to have an idea of what "sort" of quests are plausible; as the article itself suggested, there'll likely be a pre-set "base" for things like "assassinate someone," or "steal (insert item here)."
Beyond that, the implementation is perhaps up in the air; maybe Radiant will be able to piece together questlines here, or maybe not. At least, we can hope that it'll be able to have impacts in the way that Daggerfall did; infinite quests was necessary in TES2 to prevent most players from quickly running themselves into a dead-end: quests had time limits (and were failed if you went beyond them) and often you'd need to do multiple extra quests simply to get an important main-quest or faction NPC to be positive enough about you in order to advance.
[citation][nom]tanjo[/nom]Why is this news? This thing isn't even new to a game, though it IS new to TES.[/citation]
Actually, it's not new to TES; as I'd mentioned above, TES II: Daggerfall has an infinite number of quests. (coincidentally, it was also the last main-line TES game to be PC-only)
[citation][nom]alidan[/nom]anyone else fearing they skimped on the side quests in favor of an infinate quest generator?[/citation]
Actually, I'm fearing that they'd have skimped regardless, given that Oblivion had fewer quests than Morrowind. (232 vs. 426) In fact, it was even smaller than the list available in Daggerfall. (248: 32 fixed main questline quests, plus 216 "randomizable" quests types that could be infinitely re-rolled much like how it'll likely be in Skyrim)
I'd LIKE to be optimistic here, and think that Skyrim will have more quests than Oblivion overall, but I have the impression that it, indeed, will be fewer. It's already telling when we've found that The main storyline has only 12 quests, which is a significant drop from the prior games. (Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion had 32, 25, and 20, respectively; we've lost 5-8 each game) Given the way the achievements are laid out for the game's 6 factions, chances are they also have fewer quests... So I'd put the total estimate that, given we have 6 factions and a main quest of 12 parts, we'll have a total of around 100-130 storyline (main+faction+daedra) quests; this makes up the bulk of most games' quests. Morrowind had the most total quests because it had 10 factions, vs. 6 for Daggerfall and 4 for Oblivion.
Given it's safe to say that BethSoft will likely think that the "miscellaneous" quests (those not tied to any specific storyline) could be reduced if they're repeatable, chances are we'll see them reduced by 33-66%; the previous three were almost identical in counts, (129, 127, 127) so that'll entail 42-86 further quests, bringing the total to 142-216... Which yes, does mean Skyrim will almost certainly have fewer quests than any of the three preceding games. It'll be an open question, again, whether the "repeatable" nature of the miscellaneous quests will make up for it, or whether they'll wind up feeling stale the second time through. (for all Daggerfall's strengths, most quests do NOT feel fresh the second time through)
Of course, the open question is how well it'll turn out; one must remember that this won't be the first TES game to feature a theoretically infinite number of quests, which can give us an idea of what might be possible. The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall (1996) featured a quest system that, for all but the main questline, generated "randomized" quests; each started with one of a base "type" of quest, (track down a renegade guild mage, deliver a ransom for a kidnapped child, help a researcher find a long-lost magical relic) which then randomized all the variables to fit, (after all, the game had >1,000 cities and >2,000 dungeons) but ALSO could randomize things that could seriously alter the quest. (for instance, the relic might truly be lost forever; the quest would be adjusted so you'd discover this and reach an end there) Similarly, each quest could be played differently, with significant choices that branched to different results. (for instance, you could opt to hunt down the kidnappers and rescue the child... Or just later steal the ransom money back. Or you could instead pretend the renegade escaped you, hiding his location in return for further quest opportunities from him)
All in all, Daggerfall had 216 possible "quest types" here, so by no means did the "randomness" simply feel get feeling stale particularly quickly. With luck, Skyrim's so-called "RadiantStory" will manage to at least match this. We can safely presume that MUCH of the workings will have to be the same: the game will have to have an idea of what "sort" of quests are plausible; as the article itself suggested, there'll likely be a pre-set "base" for things like "assassinate someone," or "steal (insert item here)."
Beyond that, the implementation is perhaps up in the air; maybe Radiant will be able to piece together questlines here, or maybe not. At least, we can hope that it'll be able to have impacts in the way that Daggerfall did; infinite quests was necessary in TES2 to prevent most players from quickly running themselves into a dead-end: quests had time limits (and were failed if you went beyond them) and often you'd need to do multiple extra quests simply to get an important main-quest or faction NPC to be positive enough about you in order to advance.
[citation][nom]tanjo[/nom]Why is this news? This thing isn't even new to a game, though it IS new to TES.[/citation]
Actually, it's not new to TES; as I'd mentioned above, TES II: Daggerfall has an infinite number of quests. (coincidentally, it was also the last main-line TES game to be PC-only)
[citation][nom]alidan[/nom]anyone else fearing they skimped on the side quests in favor of an infinate quest generator?[/citation]
Actually, I'm fearing that they'd have skimped regardless, given that Oblivion had fewer quests than Morrowind. (232 vs. 426) In fact, it was even smaller than the list available in Daggerfall. (248: 32 fixed main questline quests, plus 216 "randomizable" quests types that could be infinitely re-rolled much like how it'll likely be in Skyrim)
I'd LIKE to be optimistic here, and think that Skyrim will have more quests than Oblivion overall, but I have the impression that it, indeed, will be fewer. It's already telling when we've found that The main storyline has only 12 quests, which is a significant drop from the prior games. (Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion had 32, 25, and 20, respectively; we've lost 5-8 each game) Given the way the achievements are laid out for the game's 6 factions, chances are they also have fewer quests... So I'd put the total estimate that, given we have 6 factions and a main quest of 12 parts, we'll have a total of around 100-130 storyline (main+faction+daedra) quests; this makes up the bulk of most games' quests. Morrowind had the most total quests because it had 10 factions, vs. 6 for Daggerfall and 4 for Oblivion.
Given it's safe to say that BethSoft will likely think that the "miscellaneous" quests (those not tied to any specific storyline) could be reduced if they're repeatable, chances are we'll see them reduced by 33-66%; the previous three were almost identical in counts, (129, 127, 127) so that'll entail 42-86 further quests, bringing the total to 142-216... Which yes, does mean Skyrim will almost certainly have fewer quests than any of the three preceding games. It'll be an open question, again, whether the "repeatable" nature of the miscellaneous quests will make up for it, or whether they'll wind up feeling stale the second time through. (for all Daggerfall's strengths, most quests do NOT feel fresh the second time through)
I'd rather wait to find out if it is a buggy mess like fallout new vegas. If it is I might pick up the "game of the year edition" with all the add-ons. Although once a game is buggy at launch sometimes all the patches in the world can't save it. Keeping my fingers crossed Bethesda. Please don't dissapoint.
FunSurfer
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- Oct 26, 2009
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I really really hope that they got rid of the weird bugs that start to infest the game if you played 200+ hours, like more crashes to the desktop, textures not loading properly, strange behaviour of corpses and items... It happend to me in Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Fallout NV. It also happened on Windows XP and Vista and on more than one PC, GPU and drivers, so it is game-engine related.
Silmarunya
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- Nov 3, 2009
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[citation][nom]Proxy711[/nom]Please don't let this game fail like Rage, dead island, and dragon age 2. The only game this year that I was really looking forward to that wasn't a huge letdown was The Witcher 2 (which was the only PC only title hint hint to developers).When i looked over the releases for the year i thought to myself "Wow best release year since 1998" then one by one every game i was looking forward to was a PoS port or so over simplified it ruined the game.Lets finish the year with a great game Bethesda.[/citation]
DAII a failure? Yeah, they cut corners with level design and the combat system was controversial (though I liked it), but it was one of the most innovative RPG's in years because it managed to combine the strong storyline of a linear story with the rich details of a more open approach.
DAII a failure? Yeah, they cut corners with level design and the combat system was controversial (though I liked it), but it was one of the most innovative RPG's in years because it managed to combine the strong storyline of a linear story with the rich details of a more open approach.
killerclick
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Daggerfall also had an insanely high number of settlements. I hope for the next Elder Scrolls game they'll feel confident enough to create a much larger, procedurally generated game world. Oblivion's towns already seemed like they were procedurally generated - a temple, a blacksmith, general store, inn, tavern, castle, just with different looking architecture.
kjsfnkwl
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- Jan 28, 2011
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[citation][nom]bystander[/nom]What was wrong with Dragon Age 2? Perhaps it wasn't quite as good as the first, but it was still good and worth playing.[/citation]
The only thing that wasn't a letdown was the music. We were all hoping for a new and improved DAO, with better graphics, more tactical gameplay and another great story. Instead, we got this lame piece of crap. Just the fact that Bioware tried to tell us that it was a sequel to the godly dragon age origins was an insult. Sorry this doesn't really have to do with skyrim, but you asked.
The only thing that wasn't a letdown was the music. We were all hoping for a new and improved DAO, with better graphics, more tactical gameplay and another great story. Instead, we got this lame piece of crap. Just the fact that Bioware tried to tell us that it was a sequel to the godly dragon age origins was an insult. Sorry this doesn't really have to do with skyrim, but you asked.
Oblivion was a major disappointment. The Elder Scrolls saw their apex with Morrowind, for which the modding community really made the game what it was. With all of the mods available, you could basically re-texture everything in the game and it looked nearly as good as Oblivion. In Morrowind there was a point where you're character became powerful enough to do pretty much whatever you wanted, but Oblivion robbed you of that with enemies that leveled up with you. It didn't even make sense after a point. At really high levels, the armor that assassins are using against you are worth more than their contract to kill you. Those assassins should have just sold their weapons and armor and retired. And don't get me started on the infinitely spawning Oblivion gates. If you were not careful, it can get to a point where you can't even leave town. Oblivion was not as complex on the immersion aspect as well. The racism you experience playing any race, it didn't matter which, made the situation you were in feel real. In Oblivion, the racism was way toned down to where it almost didn't matter.
Unfortunately, Skyrim looks more like Oblivion than Morrowind. I'll pass.
Unfortunately, Skyrim looks more like Oblivion than Morrowind. I'll pass.
[citation][nom]Silmarunya[/nom]DAII a failure? Yeah, they cut corners with level design and the combat system was controversial (though I liked it), but it was one of the most innovative RPG's in years because it managed to combine the strong storyline of a linear story with the rich details of a more open approach.[/citation]
If you are talking about dead island i could not agree with you more. The graphics engine was excellent, the quests were quite good and this was a zombie game where zombies were not exactly the same all over the map. I found the game quite enjoyable..... maybe the combat system was a bit hard at the start but it was not bad when you got used to it.....
Dragon age 2 follows the new recipe for poor development..... same maps for simply different quests. Poor graphics overall but interesting gameplay.. No it was not short as a game.
Rage was one of the biggest disappointments.... It is not a bad game overall but when you are too hyped about the new FALLOUT or BORDERLANDS title that Rage was supposed to be and you play ........ that thing...... well you are so utterly disappointed.....
BTW i still believe borderlands to be one the best shooter i have ever played... and i am eagerly awaiting for the second part
If you are talking about dead island i could not agree with you more. The graphics engine was excellent, the quests were quite good and this was a zombie game where zombies were not exactly the same all over the map. I found the game quite enjoyable..... maybe the combat system was a bit hard at the start but it was not bad when you got used to it.....
Dragon age 2 follows the new recipe for poor development..... same maps for simply different quests. Poor graphics overall but interesting gameplay.. No it was not short as a game.
Rage was one of the biggest disappointments.... It is not a bad game overall but when you are too hyped about the new FALLOUT or BORDERLANDS title that Rage was supposed to be and you play ........ that thing...... well you are so utterly disappointed.....
BTW i still believe borderlands to be one the best shooter i have ever played... and i am eagerly awaiting for the second part
greatsaltedone
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[citation][nom]bystander[/nom]What was wrong with Dragon Age 2? Perhaps it wasn't quite as good as the first, but it was still good and worth playing.[/citation]
Not to mention Dead Island. It was a very fun game to play with my wife. Sounds like Proxy711 is one of those guys who hangs out on the steam forums all day just waiting for a reason to be disappointed in a game. It makes me crazy that people can't just enjoy what they have and create an accurate balance of good vs bad attributes of games
Not to mention Dead Island. It was a very fun game to play with my wife. Sounds like Proxy711 is one of those guys who hangs out on the steam forums all day just waiting for a reason to be disappointed in a game. It makes me crazy that people can't just enjoy what they have and create an accurate balance of good vs bad attributes of games
bender3000
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nezzymighty
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I think that one of the most aggravating things for gamers is “WAITING” for things to load during game play. I know that this is a major pain for me. No matter how much faster my computer is at loading year by year because of new and better hardware, it’s never fast enough to take away the “WAITING” and my (and most gamers’) impatience.
One of the reasons why I’m a fan of Bethesda products is because they have more forward thinking programmers, in that they’ve taken out much of the WAITING in portions of their games (before the advent of SSD’s). Like in Oblivion, if you’re in the forest, you can be there forever, where loading happens in the background, almost invisible for us to detect, and doesn’t slow you down. As a light gamer now (heavy before I had children), this only enhances my gaming experience because I get more time playing rather than waiting for something to load. I’m hoping in anticipation that this will only get better with the products they provide going forward.
Oblivion was my first Bethesda product, and I may have to find the older Morrowind based on everyone’s positive comments. I believe Bethesda has a great team of programmers that are innovative, and I would purchase their products based on past successes, and their quality.
One of the reasons why I’m a fan of Bethesda products is because they have more forward thinking programmers, in that they’ve taken out much of the WAITING in portions of their games (before the advent of SSD’s). Like in Oblivion, if you’re in the forest, you can be there forever, where loading happens in the background, almost invisible for us to detect, and doesn’t slow you down. As a light gamer now (heavy before I had children), this only enhances my gaming experience because I get more time playing rather than waiting for something to load. I’m hoping in anticipation that this will only get better with the products they provide going forward.
Oblivion was my first Bethesda product, and I may have to find the older Morrowind based on everyone’s positive comments. I believe Bethesda has a great team of programmers that are innovative, and I would purchase their products based on past successes, and their quality.
Sunfighterlc
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I get the feeling all this means is that it has daily quests...aka collect 12 dear livers, or 10 hunks of giant mammoth ball.
Sunfighterlc
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[citation][nom]rrmyguy[/nom]I'm sensing DLC in Skyrim's future[/citation]
Horse armor is already in the bag.
Horse armor is already in the bag.
iceman1992
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[citation][nom]mouse24[/nom]I have to agree, i think the vibrant colors of GTA VC was amazing... it might just be nostalgia or something but i really like em....the graphics of GTA IV are way to gray and whitewashed to me... anyone else agree?i realise its supposed to be a semi depressing game but still (haven't completed it yet, no spoilers plz)[/citation]
Yep I agree, GTA VC was vibrant all right
Yep I agree, GTA VC was vibrant all right
nottheking
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[citation][nom]killerclick[/nom]Daggerfall also had an insanely high number of settlements. I hope for the next Elder Scrolls game they'll feel confident enough to create a much larger, procedurally generated game world. Oblivion's towns already seemed like they were procedurally generated - a temple, a blacksmith, general store, inn, tavern, castle, just with different looking architecture.[/citation]
I have my doubts that they'll go for massive scale at their current pace. Glimpses at the world map so far suggest that Skyrim's map is SMALLER than Oblivion's, and possible even that of Morrowind. (16 and 7 mi², respectively) It probably won't feel quite as horrendously small given that, like in Morrowind, there'll be mountains used as "walls" to limit view distance, and there won't be a huge tower visible from anywhere in the map.
But yes, the technology has certainly caught up to where the original visions of Daggerfall (As well as the original procedurally-generated vision of Morrowind circa 1999) could be implemented realistically. This could not just mean a larger world with more variety, but also enough scale to make things feel more plausible; the tiny size of Oblivion's cities (barring the capital) really strained suspension of disbelief; they were all a fraction the size of Morrowind's cities, and more compared to TES3's villages. (Chorrol felt far more like Seyda Neen than Balmora)
Procedural generation is hardly a new concept; the idea of making "vast worlds" through that; it was seen at least as far back as 1984's Elite. I'm still waiting for the game that can use it to bring world-generation to detailed levels close to matching what hand-built worlds do; it's not the technology that's lagging here.
I have my doubts that they'll go for massive scale at their current pace. Glimpses at the world map so far suggest that Skyrim's map is SMALLER than Oblivion's, and possible even that of Morrowind. (16 and 7 mi², respectively) It probably won't feel quite as horrendously small given that, like in Morrowind, there'll be mountains used as "walls" to limit view distance, and there won't be a huge tower visible from anywhere in the map.
But yes, the technology has certainly caught up to where the original visions of Daggerfall (As well as the original procedurally-generated vision of Morrowind circa 1999) could be implemented realistically. This could not just mean a larger world with more variety, but also enough scale to make things feel more plausible; the tiny size of Oblivion's cities (barring the capital) really strained suspension of disbelief; they were all a fraction the size of Morrowind's cities, and more compared to TES3's villages. (Chorrol felt far more like Seyda Neen than Balmora)
Procedural generation is hardly a new concept; the idea of making "vast worlds" through that; it was seen at least as far back as 1984's Elite. I'm still waiting for the game that can use it to bring world-generation to detailed levels close to matching what hand-built worlds do; it's not the technology that's lagging here.
soccerdocks
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[citation][nom]leadpoop[/nom]I can't buy this game!! I get confused about the name when they go around suing small developers over a name! Best 60 dollars I didn't spend[/citation]
Its pretty lame that you would't buy the game over that. Especially considering how excited Notch is about the game being released. He will be playing it as soon as he can.
Its pretty lame that you would't buy the game over that. Especially considering how excited Notch is about the game being released. He will be playing it as soon as he can.
[citation][nom]soccerdocks[/nom]Its pretty lame that you would't buy the game over that. Especially considering how excited Notch is about the game being released. He will be playing it as soon as he can.[/citation]
The best way to vote is with your wallet!! Lame or not that's the cold hard truth!!
The best way to vote is with your wallet!! Lame or not that's the cold hard truth!!
maestintaolius
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Well, comparing daggerfall to oblivion, morrowind or skyrim really isn't completely fair. Most of the content was just randomly generated copypasta, with the exception of a few main storylines. Don't get me wrong, daggerfall was a very impressive game. I do still giggle over the fact it's mapsize is still larger than any rpg out there yet, by a large margin (unless you count minecraft's randomly generated worlds).
mapesdhs
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On the subject of how artificial worlds can be modelled so that they exhibit unique and novel
behaviour, I thought you all might find the following article interesting:
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/reflections.txt
Feel free to discuss! Good food for thought.
I really like Oblivion IV, still playing it. I won't buy Skyrim until I've finished IV and various other
games I've not yet either started or completed (Stalker SHOC, Borderlands, etc.), but it certainly
looks and sounds good.
Ian.
behaviour, I thought you all might find the following article interesting:
http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/reflections.txt
Feel free to discuss! Good food for thought.
I really like Oblivion IV, still playing it. I won't buy Skyrim until I've finished IV and various other
games I've not yet either started or completed (Stalker SHOC, Borderlands, etc.), but it certainly
looks and sounds good.
Ian.
[citation][nom]Proxy711[/nom]Please don't let this game fail like Rage, dead island, and dragon age 2. The only game this year that I was really looking forward to that wasn't a huge letdown was The Witcher 2 (which was the only PC only title hint hint to developers).When i looked over the releases for the year i thought to myself "Wow best release year since 1998" then one by one every game i was looking forward to was a PoS port or so over simplified it ruined the game.Lets finish the year with a great game Bethesda.[/citation]
DA2 is a good game but DA:O was better. I agree with you on The Witcher 2. CD Projekt did everything right with that game. Waiting for their next game...
DA2 is a good game but DA:O was better. I agree with you on The Witcher 2. CD Projekt did everything right with that game. Waiting for their next game...
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