Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (
More info?)
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:11:26 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
<Janis_Papanagnou@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Jove wrote:
>[ ...many good suggestions... ]
Thanks.
>>
>> - Items to save for the Ascension run:
>> - All but one of the potions of speed you find.
>> - Bless these & use them on the Plane of Air or when
>> in trouble.
>
>Preferable use speed boots. Potions of speed are good for alchemy to
>increase your HP's.
Note the "all but one". That "one" is for alchemy.
Alchemy is much more efficient that way as well.
Speed boots are better for fighting. Don't fight on the
Ascension run if you can help it.
Jumping while fast travels faster than speed boots.
Jumping while very fast travels over *twice as fast* as
speed boots.
- Plane of Earth plane, where it's unimportant.
- Plane of Fire, where it's very important for:
- Leaving the plane before Archons appear
- Escaping Archons
- Astral Plane where it's very important for:
- Getting to the first altar before the level
fills up with monsters (just like sneaking through
the graveyard in Moloch's Sanctum)
- Getting past the Riders without being touched.
Speed boots are better on the Plane of Air and the Plane
of Water *if* you're not:
- already very fast.
- using levitation boots
Remember, jump, don't fight. You can easily cut your
time on the planes of Fire and the Astral Plane in half
by jumping.
>
>> - Every wand of teleport with charges remaining:
>
>But beware; *not* for the Riders!
Excellent point. Not directly, no, but you could zap a
wand of teleport to make a path to go by the Rider, then
#jump.
>
>> - If you have MagicBane
>> - ENCHANT MAGICBANE TO +6/7!
>> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html>
>
>We read, the good special effects will decrease noticable if enchanted.
The only special attack that decreases is stunning.
From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%
I'd argue that the decrease in the stunning special effect
is *not* noticable, especially in light of the following:
In <86k86aqv76.fsf@strackenz.spod-central.org> on Date: 28
Feb 2001
22:49:49, Dylan O'Donnell states:
>It's not true to say that there's _no_ effect; the effect of stunning
>on monsters is just different. A stunned monster:
>
>gives you a +2 bonus to hit it;
>cannot "block your (clumsy) kick";
>has less chance of escaping death by drawbridge.
>
>It's true enough that this isn't all that much of an effect,
>however.
Looking at the source code makes my eyes bleed. However,
a quick check seems to support the above.
From <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html>:
>The STUN effect causes an
>additional d4 of damage; if none of the later effects have
>occurred and been successful, it stuns the monster (or you,
>for 3 (more) turns
MagicBane at +2 instead of +7 gives a 5% more (14.5% vs
9.5%) chance of 3 more turns of +2 bonus to hit, if not
resisted.
>
>> shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
>> hit at +6 than at +2.
>
>Not much compared to the decrease in special attacks, IMO. YMMV.
The chance of special attacks *increases* from +2 (21.4%)
to +6 (34.3%).
Probe from 5.5% to 22.3%
Scare from 2.7% to 3.2%
Stun does decrease slightly from 14.5% to 12.7%.
If these effects *are* that important, there are easy
and much more reliable ways to get them when you want on
the monster you want.
From my original post:
>> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
>> monsters to dead monsters then -
>> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
>> - Cast spell of confuse monster
>> - Lasts until you hit a monster
>> - Can be pumped up
>> - Cast spell of cause fear
>> - Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
>> when you want.
>> - Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
>> you want, when you want.
Let me repeat that these effects are available *on
demand*, on the monster you, when you want, reliably.
Instead of low random probability from MagicBane.
The big question though, is *if* you want.
And MagicBane's special melee effects are easily trumped
by MagicBane's ability to engrave Elbereth in one turn
guaranteed whenever you want.
>
>Especially in the endgame, confusing, stunning, scaring, cancelling, is
>of much worth since you want to be fast, and not to engage extensively
>with every high level critter; run, teleport them away, whatever... but
>don't engage in a fight to death in melee - you don't need the 4 pts.
>more of _melee_ damage here.
As noted above, the only special attack that decreases is
stunning.
From +2 to +7 probing increases from 5.5% to 25.5%
stunning decreases from 14.5% to 9.5%
scaring increases from 2.7% to 3.6%
confusion increases from 2.0% to 3.0%
And stunning won't help you in melee except by 3 turns
of a +2 chance to hit.
If you're not fighting in melee, then special effects you
don't get aren't worth more than damage points you don't
get. They *can't* be.
If you're blocked by a monster and want to evade (again,
from my original post):
>> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
>> monsters to dead monsters then -
>> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
>> - Cast spell of confuse monster
>> - Lasts until you hit a monster
>> - Can be pumped up
>> - Cast spell of cause fear
Note again that MagicBane engraves Elbereth in one turn
guaranteed. Much better than a 20% chance of a special
effect that can be resisted and may not help you anyway.
A wand of teleport works even better, except on the
Riders. And they're much more likely to resist the
special effects. So you want them dead, dead, dead.
Ten hits at +7 is 40 more points of damage over +2.
>
>Regardless of this point, generally having a second artifact for damage
>(as you suggested) is indeed good, just in case.
Thanks. Even #twoweaponing with better (#enhanced,
enchanted) non-artifact weapons in probably better in melee.
The biggest problem is the switching, which the nethack
interface makes difficult, just as it does with jumping.
>
>> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
>> - 1000 +4000
>
>You won't have the opportunity to hit 100 (or even 1000) times; even
>the toughest creatures need no more than 10 (or so) hits - make it 15
>to take the fewer damage into account, but consider the magic effects,
>then. (A note aside: for the summoned insects this calculation is anyway
>irrelevant, since any artifact will do.)
Every time you hit with a +7 MagicBane you do 4 more
points of damage than if you hit with a +4 MagicBane.
What's the reasoning for limiting it to a single monster?
I'm not saying it's wrong to do so, just that the
justification is not evident.
>
>> - Do NOT melee if you can RUN.
>
>Most important advice!! (And especially in the endgame.)
>
>> (Could someone get the bit about enchanting MagicBane onto
>> the Nethack Myths page?)
>
>Which part about it is a myth?
>
>In the past decade the enchantment of Magicbane has been thouroughly
>discussed; what's the new point?
>
From my original post:
> - <http://www.steelypips.org/nethack/341/art2-341.html>
> shows that MagicBane does 4 more points of damage per
> hit at +6 than at +2.
> - If you hit 100 times, that's +400 points of damage.
> - 1000 +4000
> - If you prefer scared/confused/cancelled/probed
> monsters to dead monsters then -
> - Engrave Elbereth (scares monsters)
> - Cast spell of confuse monster
> - Lasts until you hit a monster
> - Can be pumped up
> - Cast spell of cause fear
> - Zap wand of probing to probe the monster you want,
> when you want.
> - Spell/wand of cancellation to cancel the monsters
> you want, when you want.
Summary:
Four more points of damage on every hit for the rest
of the game. Should easily add up to thousands more damage
points.
There are much easier, more reliable, on-demand,
targetable methods of getting MagicBane's special effects.
(Even so most players, with or without MagicBane, don't
bother with them because they're not worth the minor effort.
In which case they're certainly not worth giving up
thousands of extra damage points.)
In this post I've added that the probability of a magical
effect *increases* with MagicBane's enchantment.
Particularly the best ones of scaring and confusion.
(Whether or not this is a "new" point is up to the
reader to decide.)
Jove
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