Feather Falling and Belayed companions

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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:y-mdnda-E46WYwHfRVn-2g@comcast.com...
> > Please, for the love of whatever cheesy-poof loving god you worship,
> > would you *PLEASE* *LEARN* *PHYSICS* (and the game rules you so
arrogantly
> > attempt to discuss in complete ignorance).
> > I've been giving you the magic word. It's "UNBALANCED FORCES".
>
> Ok, so I read the primer on Newton's First Law of Motion. Wow, what an
EYE
> OPENER. I had no idea that such a wondrous thing existed!
>
> In short, we're not TALKING about unbalanced forces.

Yes you *are*, you ridiculous buffoon! Until such time as the flier
DECIDES TO CARRY THE ADDITIONAL WEIGHT - something that he cannot be
compelled to do, all this "weight" you assume he is subjected to is nothing
more than an unbalanced force, and all that will result from their addition
is that the flier will *move* in response to that force. You are ASSUMING,
with no basis in the game mechanics and a staggering _absence_ of basis in
fact, that a flier's lifting force somehow works just as if he were standing
on the ground! *NO*.

God *damnn* but you are one stupid jackass! You've had to be told this
two dozen times and you simply REFUSE TO LEARN. Why, Goslin? Why can't you
comprehend such a basic, simple thing, as that your example violates every
rule of the game and every rule of reality as well?


> > Now, if one drops a whale on this plane while it was sitting on the
> > ground, there is no choice but to support its full weight because the
EARTH
> > under the wheels pushes right back at the whale with exactly the same
force
> > as the whale applies. Action, reaction. However, the FLYING vehicle
does
> > not have this mechanism.
>
> You're saying that a plane that chock-o-block full of cargo, and is
> over-fueled in mid air will somehow snap in half like a twig, eh? No,
wait,
> it will simply drop out of the sky, falling like a rock, even after it
loses
> the weight it inadvertently got given. You're amusing.

And here is another example of why you are our group's most deserving
dunce. After explaining to you that flying vehicles don't have the
reaction-with-the-earth mechanism that can create crushing effects from
carrying too much weight, you turn around and suggest that I believe they
do?
And *then* you go on to discuss how it would be silly if AIRPLANES
displayed the behaviour of a MAGICAL SPELL IN DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS, as if
that had any relevance whatsoever!

-Michael
 
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"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel@removethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sdgu9159sf38o0ddg1nb9uo58l0751g79l@4ax.com...
> > Which is only relevant *if* you take move actions *while* a dragon
is
> >hanging onto your ankle.
> > However, if you are grappled by the dragon, you cannot *take* move
> >actions.
> > CARRYING A DRAGON IS A *COMPLETELY* *VOLUNTARY* *EXERCISE*.
>
> In other words, you can stand there in space forever so long as you
> don't take move actions?

That would be the MSB Uri Geller rule. 😉

Honestly, I don't think I'll be listening to MSB on the subject any longer.
He's gone off the deep end in a rather spectacular way. I know that I don't
really know the rules, so my interpretations don't match anything you guys
who know the rules would come up with, but by the same token, MSB's
interpretations don't appear to be very sensible either. He's coming up
with things that appear to be taken just as seriously as anything *I* would
come up with. 😉

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:j9adnZy1O8mIZwHfRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> "Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > Yes, of course - the authors WROTE DOWN THE *WEIGHT LIMITS OF THE
> > SPELLS* but "overlooked" that they might be exceeded and STILL NEED TO
WORK?
>
> I'm not going to argue with you about this, except to say that in REAL
life,
> there are thankfully few things that fail catastrophically.

<points>
<laughs>
This word "few", I think you need to review in a very thorough
fashion. Under the right conditions, *anything* can be made to fail
catastrophically. For instance, Jeff Goslin, posting to usenet. Guaranteed
catastrophic failure.

On top of that, WE ARE DISCUSSING *MAGICAL* *SPELLS* in a *GAME*.
Magic does not exist in real life. There are ample examples in the game
mechanics of magic working in completely arbitrary and "catastrophic
failure" ways. The fact that *you* fantasize that "things" don't
catastrophically fail has NO BEARING WHATSOEVER on the game mechanics of D&D
magic.

> I play a lot of paintball.

... and any argument that starts with that sentence exists only to
amuse, rather than make a point.

> The reason I bring this up is simple. In the case of a spell, it would be
> monunmentally stupid of a highly intelligent, spell casting wizard
creating
> a spell to give the precise limits of the complete and utter failure of a
> spell designed to save lives, like feather fall.

.. So, now you argue that because YOU think it is "stupid" to have
hard limits, and because YOU think that wizards have complete control over
how their spells work without having to make _any_ compromises, then of
*COURSE* a _FIRST LEVEL_ falling defense spell should work *exactly* as Jeff
Goslin's ultimate imaginary falling safety device would work.

-Michael
 
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"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel@removethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sdgu9159sf38o0ddg1nb9uo58l0751g79l@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:01:20 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
> > Which is only relevant *if* you take move actions *while* a dragon
is
> >hanging onto your ankle.
> > However, if you are grappled by the dragon, you cannot *take* move
> >actions.
> > CARRYING A DRAGON IS A *COMPLETELY* *VOLUNTARY* *EXERCISE*.
>
> In other words, you can stand there in space forever so long as you
> don't take move actions?

Loren, you have contributed nothing but idiocy to this discussion since
you started posting. You've clearly *still* never read the spell
description, based on your "tank" post the other day. And now you have the
audacity to suggest that the natural product of my observation that
*carrying dragons* is voluntary is that grappled fliers "stand there in
space"?

WHAT ABOUT *CHOOSING* NOT TO OVERLOAD ONE'S CARRYING CAPACITY DON'T YOU
UNDERSTAND?
WHAT ABOUT *FALLING* DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?


-Michael
 
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~consul wrote:
>
> Loren Pechtel wrote:
> > On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:01:20 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
> >> Which is only relevant *if* you take move actions *while* a dragon is
> >>hanging onto your ankle. However, if you are grappled by the dragon, you cannot *take* move
> >>actions. CARRYING A DRAGON IS A *COMPLETELY* *VOLUNTARY* *EXERCISE*.
> > In other words, you can stand there in space forever so long as you
> > don't take move actions?
>
> I would say that a dragon (or whomever is sufficiently heavy enough) decides to
> drop on a wizard, is working on a Bull Rush, and has a bonus due to weight. As
> such, there is movement.

There is, however, no move ACTION, nor is there FLIGHT.

-Bluto
 
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Jeff Goslin wrote:
>
> I know that I don't
> really know the rules, so my interpretations don't match anything you guys
> who know the rules would come up with,

You said it!

-Bluto
 
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On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 17:41:17 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>>> I think Goslin has at least the glimmering of a point. It seems to me
>>>> that if a backpack attached to you "weighs" on the Fly spell, then a
>>>> dragon attached to you must do so as well.
>>>
>>> Which is only relevant *if* you take move actions *while* a dragon is
>>>hanging onto your ankle.
>>> However, if you are grappled by the dragon, you cannot *take* move
>>>actions.
>>> CARRYING A DRAGON IS A *COMPLETELY* *VOLUNTARY* *EXERCISE*.
>>
>>In other words, you can stand there in space forever so long as you
>>don't take move actions?
>
>No. You can only stand there until your flying spell expires. Until
>then, why the hell not?

I'm saying that by this interpretation of the rules you can stand in
midair forever with *NO* magic by simply not taking move actions.
 
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On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:18:54 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:aeds91th75t85rtdvgi5atk1m0rsj4q0md@4ax.com...
>> >Don't you think that something like this would at least warrant a
>one-liner
>> >in the rules somewhere, if only to confirm your interpretation?
>>
>> No. There are very very few spells where this can mechanically even be an
>> issue, and the circumstances where it would become an issue are also rare.
>
>True, but ... one line... huge rule book... just one line?
>
>Also, I'll wager that spell failure mid-duration happens more often than we
>are actively recognizing right now,

I don't.

>because we're focussing on one spell in particular.

3 spells, actually.

> But I don't think it would be hard to overload a spell
>intentionally and need a rule to cover what happens. You'd think they would
>have covered that one...

It is hard, for the first reason that I mention...spells which are even
capable of being overloaded are nearly nonexistant in the first place.

No DD spell qualifies.
No Heal qualifies.
99.9% of Buffs do not qualify.
Summon spells do not qualify, or have built-in rules for when they cease
functioning.
Ditto any form of mind control.

Then there is part 2, where these overloaded conditions are unlikely.
Dragon grabs onto your skivvies to try to cancel your spell? Ok, stop
flying and free-fall. Just because you have fly active doesn't mean you
need to be flying for it to stay active. Spell remains in effect because it
isn't supporting any weight at all, and certainly not the dragon. Dragon
can keep falling, or dragon can let go. My vote is that he'd let go.
 
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Donald Tsang wrote:
> Perhaps for "overloaded", specifically, but there are probably
> plenty of instances where a spell subject becomes "invalid":
>
> If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
> non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
> can think of other examples.

Does Polymorph change the target's Type?

On the topic of overloads, don't forget every single defensive
barrier spell that is pressed against its antithesis. Catastrophic
failure ensues. "Pop"! IIRC, 2nd Ed versions of endure elements
catastrophically failed if subjected to magical elemental damage.
"Pop"!

-MIchael
 
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Donald Tsang wrote:
> MisterMichael <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Does Polymorph change the target's Type?
>
> Why, yes it does! Don't you remember the flap about this with respect to
> Wild Shape and Animal Growth?

I don't think I was involved in that flap. Weird, though -
according to his example a wizard/troll is [Giant] [augumented
humanoid]. Does charm person work on [augmented humanoid]s?


> > On the topic of overloads, don't forget every single defensive
> >barrier spell that is pressed against its antithesis. Catastrophic
> >failure ensues. "Pop"! IIRC, 2nd Ed versions of endure elements
> >catastrophically failed if subjected to magical elemental damage.
> >"Pop"!
>
> I don't understand... that's "until discharged", one of the spell
> duration types, right?

The 2E spell provided protection for a very long time against
nonmagical elemental damage; but if subjected to magical damage it
would fail immediately (though taking a smidgen off the top as it
goes). This isn't a "discharged" issue.

> Can you give some 3.5E examples of this kind of thing?

<ponders> Not, apparently, without references! They cleaned it up
a lot in going to 3E. Of course, the fact that 2E, which Goslin plays,
features catstrophic overload spells isn't going to deter him from
insisting that they must not.


-Michael
 
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On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 06:21:53 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"~consul" <consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote in message
>news:d7lggc$abd$1@gist.usc.edu...
>> There is nothing in the description about what happens when someone
>Feather
>> Falls and then more weight is added. Yes. But given that the spell is only
>to do
>> one thing, slow down a fall, it either does it or it does. There are no
>> varaiations to a use of such a spell. Like Lightening, I can use it on a
>> creature, a PC, a door, a wall, a chest, an elemental, into another item,
>etc.
>> Different expectations, multiple uses. But I don't see that sort of
>variety with
>> Feather Fall, so I see it being on or off, you either go slow, or you
>don't.
>
>Maybe it's just me(wait, no, of course it's just me), but in the real world,
>things that are designed to slow things down and START to work rarely
>completely fail to slow them down. If your brakes START working on your
>car, if your car suddenly weighed as much as a semi, the brakes wouldn't
>STOP working, they'd just work really really poorly(ineffectively).

Highly likely that they would break and you would be completely un-slowed
by them. There's a road in the Sierras that indirectly links Yosemite to
Nevada (passes by the Army's mountain warfare training school). It is
*incredibly* twisty, turny, steep, and long. On the rare time that I drive
it, I have to be extremely careful because I will often find that the
constant use of the brakes causes them to STOP WORKING. They become
overloaded and will simply give out. Not a pleasant experience.

Brakes most certainly can and will absolutely fail and provide you with no
benefit. Quintupling+ the weight they were designed to handle will do this
no problem at all.
 
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On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:07:56 GMT, Matt Frisch
<matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:

>Highly likely that they would break and you would be completely un-slowed
>by them. There's a road in the Sierras that indirectly links Yosemite to
>Nevada (passes by the Army's mountain warfare training school). It is
>*incredibly* twisty, turny, steep, and long. On the rare time that I drive
>it, I have to be extremely careful because I will often find that the
>constant use of the brakes causes them to STOP WORKING. They become
>overloaded and will simply give out. Not a pleasant experience.
>
>Brakes most certainly can and will absolutely fail and provide you with no
>benefit. Quintupling+ the weight they were designed to handle will do this
>no problem at all.

As will a stupid mechanic who installs the drums upsidedown. The
brakes worked fine for a few months after that until we came to a very
long downhill. The transmission was in rotten shape also and wouldn't
hold in the lower gears. (Note that until we hit this downhill the
transmission problems made it impossible to accelerate to above 30mph.
Given the state of the roads this was not actually a limit of any
importance.)

The brakes burned out very quickly and the one gear that would hold in
the transmission kept us down to about 45mph. It made for a very
rough ride but the road was straight enough we weren't in any real
danger of going off it. Fortunately the military guards at the bottom
of the hill realized we were out of control and not trying to crash
their post.
 
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rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in
news:429df59c.33435588@news.telusplanet.net:

> Newtonian physics say that you fall at so many meters per second
> squared. If you were using Aristotelian physics then the speed at
> which you fall would be proportional to the mass of the extra weight.
>
>

Neither set of physics have any relevance here.

--
Marc
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Xdidnb0rtbCMQwPfRVn-tw@comcast.com:

> Maybe it's just me(wait, no, of course it's just me), but in the
> real world, things that are designed to slow things down and START
> to work rarely
>

Here's you problem, "in the real world" does not apply.

--
Marc
 
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rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) wrote in
news:429df52a.33321435@news.telusplanet.net:

> No. It just means he goes downward.
>
>

Well, even with FeatherFall working he goes downward, but you
didn't really answer my question.

--
Marc
 
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Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>> But I don't think it would be hard to overload a spell
>>intentionally and need a rule to cover what happens. You'd think they would
>>have covered that one...
>
>It is hard, for the first reason that I mention...spells which are even
>capable of being overloaded are nearly nonexistant in the first place.

Perhaps for "overloaded", specifically, but there are probably
plenty of instances where a spell subject becomes "invalid":

If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
can think of other examples.


Donald
 
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Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
> non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
> can think of other examples.

Absolutely. I cast an Extended Gust of Wind spell that
includes Abdul in its area. Abdul is a Medium
creature. Abdul fails his saving throw, so Abdul is
unable to move forward against the force of the wind.
Bobo casts Enlarge Person on Abdul. Abdul is now
Large. Large creatures may move normally within a Gust
of Wind's area...but Abdul was a valid target when I
cast the spell! Is Abdul still affected by the spell
(unable to move forward against the force of the
wind)? Is his movement somehow *partially* limited?

I submit that only an idiot would rule he/it is.

-Bluto
 
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"Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9669A80C15109mastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135...
> > Newtonian physics say that you fall at so many meters per second
> > squared. If you were using Aristotelian physics then the speed at
> > which you fall would be proportional to the mass of the extra weight.
>
> Neither set of physics have any relevance here.

Well, technically, I suppose, when it comes to magic, no, but there is a
"set of physics" in the world of fantasy outside of the magic. So it is
relevant to what happens when the spell fails.

And personally, I like to work magic in some manner similar to the laws of
the natural universe, if only cursorily. I understand that magic breaks the
laws of physics, but I like magical effects to be at least representative of
some manner of expected behavior.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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"Marc L." <master.cougar@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9669A81E3321Bmastercougarhotmailc@207.35.177.135...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:Xdidnb0rtbCMQwPfRVn-tw@comcast.com:
>
> > Maybe it's just me(wait, no, of course it's just me), but in the
> > real world, things that are designed to slow things down and START
> > to work rarely
> >
>
> Here's you problem, "in the real world" does not apply.

Look, if that's all you've got, then we thank you for your contributions
thus far, and you may go along your merry way.

We know that "the real world" doesn't apply, but there must be some
semblance of order in the universe. In OUR universe, the laws of physics
provide MOST of that order, so if we need to have a set of rules, it helps
OUR understanding of the rules to base it on something we are familiar with.
Physics is a good basis.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
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MisterMichael <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
>> non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
>> can think of other examples.
>
> Does Polymorph change the target's Type?

Why, yes it does! Don't you remember the flap about this with respect to
Wild Shape and Animal Growth?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a

(btw, another example: Wild Shape, Animal Growth, then change back to
normal and Wild Shape again)


> On the topic of overloads, don't forget every single defensive
>barrier spell that is pressed against its antithesis. Catastrophic
>failure ensues. "Pop"! IIRC, 2nd Ed versions of endure elements
>catastrophically failed if subjected to magical elemental damage.
>"Pop"!

I don't understand... that's "until discharged", one of the spell
duration types, right? Can you give some 3.5E examples of this kind
of thing?


Donald
 
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Mere moments before death, Donald Tsang hastily scrawled:
>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>>> But I don't think it would be hard to overload a spell
>>>intentionally and need a rule to cover what happens. You'd think they would
>>>have covered that one...
>>
>>It is hard, for the first reason that I mention...spells which are even
>>capable of being overloaded are nearly nonexistant in the first place.
>
>Perhaps for "overloaded", specifically, but there are probably
>plenty of instances where a spell subject becomes "invalid":

Be that as it may, this is not the case in the example. There is no
reason you can't cast Feather Fall on a Medium creature carrying more
than its maximum load, it just won't do anything.

>If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
>non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
>can think of other examples.

There are already rules in place for what happens when a spell's
target becomes invalid. But, that isn't happening in this case.



Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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Mere moments before death, Senator Blutarsky hastily scrawled:
>Donald Tsang wrote:
>>
>> If you cast Charm Person on someone who then Polymorphs into a
>> non-humanoid (say, a Fey), what happens to the Charm? I'm sure you
>> can think of other examples.
>
>Absolutely. I cast an Extended Gust of Wind spell that
>includes Abdul in its area. Abdul is a Medium
>creature. Abdul fails his saving throw, so Abdul is
>unable to move forward against the force of the wind.
>Bobo casts Enlarge Person on Abdul. Abdul is now
>Large. Large creatures may move normally within a Gust
>of Wind's area...but Abdul was a valid target when I
>cast the spell!

Abdul was never, and can never be a valid target for Gust of Wind,
it's an area of effect spell.




Ed Chauvin IV

--
DISCLAIMER : WARNING: RULE # 196 is X-rated in that to calculate L,
use X = [(C2/10)^2], and RULE # 193 which is NOT meant to be read by
kids, since RULE # 187 EXPLAINS homosexuality mathematically, using
modifier G @ 11.

"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
 
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"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cpGne.1128$W77.617@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> There are ample examples in the game mechanics of magic working in
> completely arbitrary and "catastrophic failure" ways.

Indeed. As an example, look at a Flesh to Stone effect. If you barely make
your save, you do *not* end up with a stone butt cheek on the left side.
You are either affected fully, or not at all. Many things in D&D work this
way.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:

> Yes you *are*, you ridiculous buffoon! Until such time as the flier
> DECIDES TO CARRY THE ADDITIONAL WEIGHT - something that he cannot be
> compelled to do, all this "weight" you assume he is subjected to is nothing
> more than an unbalanced force, and all that will result from their addition
> is that the flier will *move* in response to that force. You are ASSUMING,
> with no basis in the game mechanics and a staggering _absence_ of basis in
> fact, that a flier's lifting force somehow works just as if he were standing
> on the ground! *NO*.

Jeff, in case you still don't get what Michael is (I believe) trying to
tell you:

If a dragon falls on a Flying wizard, the wizard isn't intentionally
lifting -- exerting upward force -- on the dragon, as he would if he
were trying to carry a large object. The dragon is merely pushing down
on him. He isn't *carrying* the dragon any more than he'd be *carrying*
a stone giant if it lassoed him and started tugging.

How, you may ask, does the spell know the difference between downward
force due to a carried object and downward force due to a falling
dragon? It's *magic.* It knows.

-Will
 
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"Will Green" <will_j_green@yXaXhXoXoX.com> wrote in message
news:11Nne.1323$py3.684@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
> Jeff, in case you still don't get what Michael is (I believe) trying to
> tell you:
>
> If a dragon falls on a Flying wizard, the wizard isn't intentionally
> lifting -- exerting upward force -- on the dragon, as he would if he
> were trying to carry a large object. The dragon is merely pushing down
> on him. He isn't *carrying* the dragon any more than he'd be *carrying*
> a stone giant if it lassoed him and started tugging.

I understand that is what he's trying to get across, and the point is
irrelevant, because I was very intentionally trying to avoid that scenario.
All I wanted was to create a situation where the "large creature" becomes
encumbrance. Perhaps it goes limp, maybe it does the piggyback thing, who
knows. The point being made was that, whatever the mechanic, IF something
becomes encumbrance for some reason, according to MSB rules, it will end the
spell.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right