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You're still making the same logical error Paul. Memory latency is just one of many factors that make up overall performance. So even <b>if</b> A64 boards would not allow you to run those memory sticks at equally low latencies as P4 boards, its a non issue when performance is still head and shoulders above that of the P4 for a given type of software. You can't just compare BIOS settings to conclude anything between the inherent much lower latency ODMC of the A64 versus the northbridge approach of the P4. Its really no different than claiming the P4 would be a better enthousiast choice because it runs at higher clockfrequency. You can compare CPU clockfrequencies within a given cpu/platform as an aproximation of performane, and you might use latency (as well as bandwith) as an aproximation of memory performance within a given platform, but its useless outside that. Look at it this way: which platform do you think gives you (by FAR) the lowest overall memory latency ? Hint: its not the P4. Have a look here:
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000258" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=60000258</A>
The A64 offers up to <b>300%</b> lower memory latency as the p4, so why on earth bitch about a 2 or 5% 3-2-2 would offer over 2-2-2 or something ? Makes no sense.

As for the AGP lock; its the same thing really. Why rant against the absense of an AGP lock, and not an unlockable multiplier which are only available on the AXP and AFX ? And again, overall overclocked performance (/$$$) should be considered when comparing two totally different platforms, not just one functional detail. You don't see anyone recommending a AXP 3200+ to overclockers instead of a P4C just because it does come with an AGP lock, as well as selectable multipliers do you ? You have a point that P4's tend to be better overclockers, in the sense that you are much more likely to achieve a higher percentage increase, but for a gamer, I still don't see the relevance of this when it takes a P4 4 GHz to catch up with stock performance of the A64.

Lastly, enthiousast<>hardcore overclocker. Again, as I pointed out already, its contradictory to recommend a certain platform for better "perceived stability", when you toss that all away when you start overclocking to the limit. Its simple really, when you love to achieve 30-50% overclocks, get a P4, when you care about absolute gaming performance, get a A64 regardless if you're an overclocker or not.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
You debunked nothing, we both know AMD changed their rating system to better suit P4 processors after saying it was based on the Thunderbird core. You just keep saying you proved me wrong because, as the movie said...

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Anyway, for you to claim otherwise is just a long list of lies in your dishonest life, I bet you cheated in school too.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
I get along with all but a handfull of people who seem to take darko's side on these matters. Which is fine, because I understand the gang mentality, you guys like beating up on people, it makes you feel powerfull.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
Re: You debunked nothing, we both know AMD changed their rating system to better suit P4 processors after saying it was based on the Thunderbird core. You just keep saying you proved me wrong because, as the movie said...

Its all here in black and white in this <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=174908#174908" target="_new"> thread </A> .This is also the thead where you started calling me a liar based on nothing you did it because you could not win the argument. I don't expect people to read it as its way to long but the proof is all there.

Re: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

That was inteligent!

Re: Anyway, for you to claim otherwise is just a long list of lies in your dishonest life, I bet you cheated in school too.

Long list of lies? Dishonest life? I must have been a cheater in school?

On the first 2 you are out to lunch as usual! I am sure I cheated on a couple of tests here or there in high school although nothing comes to mind. Hell no one is perfect. What are you anyway some kind of religous freak.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
Re: I get along with all but a handfull of people who seem to take darko's side on these matters. Which is fine, because I understand the gang mentality, you guys like beating up on people, it makes you feel powerfull.

There is no gang mentality here. You keep calling me, others and even thg liars. You seriously expect people to back you on that? I think most of the posters in this thread have a very good idea on what has transpired between the two of us. If you are going to run around like a child screaming the sky is really purple expect people to disagree.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
i think its just best to let it settle now, all your guys fighting here is worthless and not helping the original poster, just need to calm down just a tad, or move it to another thread.
 
The clown is calling me a liar based on nothing.

I have every right to refute that.

Just watch his next post he probably reply "see you are a liar cause I never said the sky was purple anywhere"

This is the kind of childish crap I have to put up with.

You would get worked up too if someone was calling you a liar over and over based on NOTHING

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
I fully agree name calling, basless accusations, is childish and can ruin a thread beyond repair.

But try see it from my point of view. He calls me an endless liar with nothing to back it up (and I am not the only one) THG are liars p4mans dishonents VIA is run by criminals and should be put to death and in the previous thread he was calling AMD liars.

Now you want me to start a thread somwhere else to discuss how I'm a liar? You are asking a bit too much there. Crash is the root of all these problems with his baseless acusations. Go back and take a look how it started in this thread.

I suppose I should be the bigger person, However, I let him off rather easy in the previous thread we argued in (I did not have to). I get rewarded now by him calling me a liar in this thread with no prevoking.

The guy is a worthless sore looser.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
you both dragged a grudge into a thread it doesnt belong, open one to discuss your problems. if i was in your place i would not even bring it up in threads or respond to attacks in threads where it doesnt belong. i was just saying this isnt the place.
 
Wrong!

He brought it up not me! I was just defending myself.

I refuse to let basless acusations go unchecked.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
Hey dude, what got into you ? You're spoiling the good fun ! Never ever try to stop a good mud slinging name calling pissing contest thread :) C'mon Cashman and darkdude, gimme more !

---------------------------------------------------
I am severly limited in what my mind can perceive.
 
Nope, I never cheated in school because...I'm honest. Which is probably why you stalk me so much.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
I never called THG liars, I simply stated that they lied by mistake. You see, people make mistakes all the time. And I wouldn't have used such a harsh word except that children don't seem to understand otherwise.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
Darko's problem with me stems from the fact that I believe the XP rating system is a bit flawed and so does he, but he won't admit it. It has to do with the fact they said it was based on the Thunderbird, but tried to adjust it to fit the P4 better. One of those "little white lies" they couldn't state it was based on the P4 because of liability issues. Darko said it was never adjusted for Socket A processors. Darko believes everything AMD says, even promotional stuff like the "XP Formula" which is not even a benchmark.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
Re: Nope, I never cheated in school because...I'm honest. Which is probably why you stalk me so much.

Calling me a liar is honest? how could you ever have cheated in school by the looks of it you never even went to school! Stalk you? You called me a frigging liar numb nuts how am I stalking you?


Re: I never called THG liars, I simply stated that they lied by mistake. You see, people make mistakes all the time. And I wouldn't have used such a harsh word except that children don't seem to understand otherwise.

Lied by mistake what is that? Do you not know the difference between a lie and a mistake? CHILDREN is that what you think the forum people here are your children to teach? man oh man are you messed up.


Re: Darko's problem with me stems from the fact that I believe the XP rating system is a bit flawed and so does he, but he won't admit it. It has to do with the fact they said it was based on the Thunderbird, but tried to adjust it to fit the P4 better. One of those "little white lies" they couldn't state it was based on the P4 because of liability issues. Darko said it was never adjusted for Socket A processors. Darko believes everything AMD says, even promotional stuff like the "XP Formula" which is not even a benchmark.


My original problem with you started based on the fact you were acusing AMD of lying with the xprating formula. See as you knew ABSOLUTLY nothing on how it works it was another basless acusation. Typical crash stuff. Check the link here in this <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=174908#174908" target="_new"> thread </A> it shows you acusing and arguing about xp rating formula something you knew nothing about.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
no, you know nothing of how the XP rating formula works. In fact, it doesn't. It's an amalgumation of several "formulas", which are actually scales, based on what processors AMD has sold and what they named them. The "formula" is based on what AMD names their CPU's, not vice versa. You overclock an XP2400+ to XP3200+ speed and it magically tells you that you're at XP3200+ performance, simply by comparing the core used to the speed you set it at. It has no relevance to actual performance. Actual performance on which the model numbers were assigned was a judgement call on the part of AMD, they simply said "this performs like a P4 2.8B, let's call it a 2800+. There is no "formula" behind that, it's derived from testing the CPU using real application benchmarks and so forth. It's not a flawless automated system, it's not quantitative but qualitative.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
Oh, and you can lie by mistake. If you make a mistake on the witness stand you might not go to jail for purgery, but your entire testimony will come into doubt.

Exagerations, over-generalizations, all different degrees of a lie. If you told me you caught a 5lb bass because you were so excited you embelished by mistake, I'd weigh it out at 3.5lb and everyone would still call it a fish story. And the only way I'd come outright to call it a lie is if someone insisted it was completely true.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
It's a bios thing butt plug. I'd suppose amd uses the formula to get the rating then feeds the info to mb manufactuers so it can determin multiplier fsb cache in the bios and boot with a rating over mHz

<A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/cpu/20011009/athlonxp-12.html#amds_new_model_policy" target="_new"> clicky for amd hater crashman </A>

AMD's New Model Policy

The benchmarks show quite clearly that AthlonXP 1800+ is able to beat Intel's flagship Pentium 4 2 GHz in the majority of benchmarks. From that point of view, the AthlonXP at 1533 MHz would have rather deserved the model number 1900+ or even 2000+. However, AMD was basing its model rating on the expected performance of the next Pentium 4 core 'Northwood', which will be performing better per clock than current Pentium 4 CPUs.

AMD's problem is the fact that Athlon processors are able to do a lot more work per clock cycle than Intel's Pentium 4. We just saw that AthlonXP at 1533 MHz is able to reach or even beat Pentium 4 running at an almost 33% higher clock speed. Normal buyers won't care about the 'work per clock' issue. They just ask for 'megahertz' and that's AMD's trouble. Hence, AMD didn't have any other choice than introducing a measure that would reflect the actual performance of its processors. The new model numbers are a first step in this direction.

AMD's new model rating is based on 14 benchmarks that represent 34 applications of the three fields 'visual computing', 'gaming' and 'office productivity'. AMD was trying to be as fair as possible, with the effect that the current model numbering of AthlonXP processors is a bit overly humble, as you can see from our benchmarks. Once Intel releases Pentium 4 processors based on Northwood however, the model numbers may become more realistic.

The model numbering is only an intermediate solution. AMD is trying to help establish an independent institution that creates a new performance measure that is fairer and more realistic than the current MHz-rating in 2002. This institution is supposed to benefit every PC customer, regardless if he buys Intel or AMD processors, by providing a reliable way of determing performance.

We will see how successful AMD will be in helping to establish this institution. Intel won't have any interest in giving aid, because it benefits from the clock frequency (hype) lead of Pentium 4. Microsoft will have to join in, since a majority of software comes from the software giant. OEMs might or might not be interested. Especially the old buddies of Intel won't be willing to help or recognize AMD's initiative. The media could help a lot, but certainly not the crazy fanatics found in so many Internet publications. It will be a long way and this institution will need a strong spokesperson that is able to take a lot of abuse from the AMD as well as Intel fanatics across the globe. The noble idea behind this institution might not be good enough to make it real. Let's see what happens.

There will be a lot of criticism of AMD now. Yes, it is true that the model numbering might confuse customers right now, since it is indeed difficult to know if Athlon 1400 is now slower or faster than AthlonXP 1500+. However, these are transitional times. AMD's new model number system deserves better than being compared with the old and confusing P-Rating. AMD hasn't got an alternative right now and so I respect the new system and accept it, even though I might not like it too much. I suggest that we all give it a chance.



If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
Re: Oh, and you can lie by mistake. If you make a mistake on the witness stand you might not go to jail for purgery, but your entire testimony will come into doubt. Exagerations, over-generalizations, all different degrees of a lie. If you told me you caught a 5lb bass because you were so excited you embelished by mistake, I'd weigh it out at 3.5lb and everyone would still call it a fish story. And the only way I'd come outright to call it a lie is if someone insisted it was completely true.


Just look at that desperate atempt to make a simple mistake appear as a lie. You are so sad.

Of frigging course you can't go on the witness stand and say I never lied it was a mistake that is why both parties have lawyers. but anyone can make a mistake and it is clearly not a lie.


If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.
 
Hey crash where did you ever learn

"It's an amalgumation of several formulas" ????


You certianly did not used to know that! Do you remember me pointing that out in the last <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=174908#174908" target="_new"> thread </A> we argued in a few days ago?


I thought you said you were always right and never wrong! We would not want to see your children misled. So take a look at the idiot posts you made a few months ago..... Crash do you remember making those idiot posts? see below or am I lying?

It was even a rip off back then, because the 1600+ wasn't twice as fast as a PIII 800EB. You could compare it to the sucky Willy and say it was better, or the Northwood and say it was about right, but it was supposed to be based on previous AMD processors, which was a complete falsehood.

Hehe, no. AMD CLAIMED the PR system was based on the Thunderbird. Now, the Thunderbird was a bit faster than the Coppermine, clock for clock. It had about the same power except for it's better floating point.

So that was their claim. Of course, we all suspected that claim was a lie, and that they were really trying to compare to the P4. But you still expect around 14% better performance from a 1600+ than an Athlon 1400, and that's what AMD was claiming, and we know it's a lie.

So my PIII comparison was based on easy numbers: 1600 is twice as large as 800, a DDR266 bus has twice the bandwidth of a 133MHz SDR bus. And since the Thunderbird was a hair more powerfull than the Coppermine, a buyer would expect the XP1600+ to be MORE than twice as powerfull as an 800EB.
Click to expand...



If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by darko21 on 04/19/04 11:39 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
If you just don't post in these type of threads usually you don't have to worry about being jumped upon.

I enjoy nearly every poster on here.. even SOD's. I just try not getting into the drama. Becuase when i need help i know i'll be asking here. :)

<A HREF="http://arc.aquamark3.com/arc/arc_view.php?run=277124623" target="_new">http://arc.aquamark3.com/arc/arc_view.php?run=277124623</A>
46,510 , movin on up. 48k new goal. Maybe not.. :/
 
BIOS get's it's XP number from a table. AMD tells companies what speeds and cores represent what model numbers, and the companies plug that value in. I'm telling you, it's all smoke and mirrors, based on estimates made by people, not machines. Most of the estimates are good...the early ones were low, the last ones were high, and the ones in the middle were just about right.

I already told you that I build mostly AMD systems for my clients. You said it was irrelavent. Then you say I hate AMD. You make no sense. Which is how you prove to everyone else that in spite of your good use of words, you're still trolling.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
 
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