Fun with Polearms

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In a previous game as a Ran Hum Mal Cha, I got good use out of a
voulge. Melee weapon was a flail (not a bad weapon) before I got
Firebrand.

Firstly, a polearm can be used to safely attack anything with a
passive attack, including floating eyes.

I happened to have a ring of invisibility, jumping boots and was fast
after eating a quantum mechanic. Given a sufficiently large space and
light, I could give the run around to most monsters, hitting them
without being attacked in return.

The most fun came in Fort Ludios. The door from the Zoo to outside was
locked. Having applied a beartrap inside the door, I unlocked it and
stood back. One by one the soldiers walked into the trap and were
mercilessly hacked to death from a safe range. A minor nuisance was
caused by a wand of create monster, but for the most part it was a
massacre. I picked a +1 bardiche from the wreckage.

Further fun was to be had at the entrance to the fort itself, with the
moat separating my Ranger from his helpless victims.

I was disappointed to find that a creature detected by telepathy alone
couldn't be attacked by polearm.

Sadly, this Ranger died on the Quest, poisoned by Scorpius, after I
failed to fully appreciate the significance of the message "You feel
deathly sick". Unicorn horn applied once, no effect, went back to
killing. He was well kitted out - silver dragon scale mail, cloak of
magic resistance, +7 Firebrand, Longbow of Diana, Gauntlets of Power,
intrinsic AC of 1, other stuff I've forgotten. A large amount of stuff
had been collected at great length from the Mines and upper Dungeon
ready for polypiling.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
> Firstly, a polearm can be used to safely attack anything with a
> passive attack, including floating eyes.

Wow, that makes a polearm as nice as a bunch of rocks.

> I happened to have a ring of invisibility, jumping boots and was fast
> after eating a quantum mechanic. Given a sufficiently large space and
> light, I could give the run around to most monsters, hitting them
> without being attacked in return.

Trolls often try this but they are rarely fast enough
to pull it off as a strategy.

> The most fun came in Fort Ludios. The door from the Zoo to outside was
> locked. Having applied a beartrap inside the door, I unlocked it and
> stood back. One by one the soldiers walked into the trap and were
> mercilessly hacked to death from a safe range. A minor nuisance was
> caused by a wand of create monster, but for the most part it was a
> massacre. I picked a +1 bardiche from the wreckage.
>
> Further fun was to be had at the entrance to the fort itself, with the
> moat separating my Ranger from his helpless victims.

It's interesting to look through the weights and damages.
Spetum is well out of pattern compared to the rest. Spetum
and ranseur are much lighter than the rest. Halberd does
the most damage but is also the heaviest. Given the choice
of a wide assortment of polearms I might chose a spetum.
Then again given the abundance of other weapons I've
rarely used polearms.

Thanks for the training.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Doug Freyburger wrote:
<snip>
> It's interesting to look through the weights and damages.
> Spetum is well out of pattern compared to the rest. Spetum
> and ranseur are much lighter than the rest. Halberd does
> the most damage but is also the heaviest. Given the choice
> of a wide assortment of polearms I might chose a spetum.
> Then again given the abundance of other weapons I've
> rarely used polearms.

Also lances are super fun if you ride and can get skilled/expert at
it...

-K

 

[Guest]

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Jove wrote:
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
> >> Firstly, a polearm can be used to safely attack anything with a
> >> passive attack, including floating eyes.
>
> gelatinous cube(?)...

If those are the ones that freeze you then eat your
stash, you betcha.

> >Wow, that makes a polearm as nice as a bunch of rocks.
>
> Better, in fact:
> - less total weight
> - no picking them up or going to get more.
> - can be enchanted
> - nice selection generally available for enchantment
> testing and choice of damage/weight ratio.
> - Very useful in the Castle after blasting the
> drawbridge. (Or see Krysia's Crusader's method.)
> - eels/krakens hahaha!

Worse, in fact:
- rocks work at ranges other than exactly 2
- rocks are immune to rust
- nurses don't care if you are armed to the teeth with rocks
- stone-to-flesh spell works a lot better on rocks than
on polearms when you're really hungry
- no one counts boulders as just big rocks, but ...

There is symetry.

> Might even be worth #enhancing. Keeping a bear trap handy,
> nearby even if not in inventory, could be fun too.

Might be worth enhancing once. I don't see them
usefull enough to get them to expert.

> Now if someone would just get on with implementing my idea
> of moving the "enter explore mode" command into the extended
> commands, so 'X' could be used to switch between weapon/shield
> setups.... >:-D

Cycle among a twoweapon set-up, a twohanded weapon,
a weapon-and-shield pair. Okay.

> >> Further fun was to be had at the entrance to the fort itself, with the
> >> moat separating my Ranger from his helpless victims.
>
> >It's interesting to look through the weights and damages.
> >Spetum is well out of pattern compared to the rest. Spetum
> >and ranseur are much lighter than the rest. Halberd does
> >the most damage but is also the heaviest. Given the choice
> >of a wide assortment of polearms I might chose a spetum.
> >Then again given the abundance of other weapons I've
> >rarely used polearms.
>
> Just going for the lightest would make sense. Damage dealt is
> less important because the whole idea is that you're hitting
> while you can't be hit back. (Permanently engraving Elbereth is
> a lot like that, or having Magicbane.)

Since I like to carry a wide assortment of gear, adding
yet another weapon into the mix makes inventory management
even more important. A spetum easily switched to means
not carrying maybe a heavy armor option in the bag.

> Checking pole arms for enchantment bonuses looks like a good
> idea (price id or spell of identification).

Depends on how easy ID is. A wizard with 0% failure
ID spell will view this differently than a Valk who
has to rely on scrolls and shopkeepers.

> Aside from that cruelty factor, it might encourage players
> to look for and use non-dogma'd weapons. As this thread does.

There is occasional discussion on non-artifact
ascension as a challenge.

> It would also open players up to more of the possibilities
> in the game.

Various types of infinities. Aleph-null to aleph-one.

> Come to think of it, there's a pretty good argument that
> a quarterstaff should be appliable at a distance of more than
> one square. Maybe just to the second squares NSEW, and only
> at higher skill levels.
>
> That would make the quarterstaff more attractive in the
> mid-to-late game. Especially since it prevents use of a
> shield.

Quarterstaff is barely better than dagger, it seems at
times.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 3 Aug 2005 10:53:43 -0700, "Doug Freyburger"
<dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Andrew Kerr wrote:
>>
>> Firstly, a polearm can be used to safely attack anything with a
>> passive attack, including floating eyes.

gelatinous cube(?), brown mold, yellow mold, blue jelly,
red mold....

Too bad you couldn't use one when engulfed by an energy vortex.

>
>Wow, that makes a polearm as nice as a bunch of rocks.

Better, in fact:
- less total weight
- no picking them up or going to get more.
- can be enchanted
- nice selection generally available for enchantment
testing and choice of damage/weight ratio.
- Very useful in the Castle after blasting the
drawbridge. (Or see Krysia's Crusader's method.)
- eels/krakens hahaha!


Might even be worth #enhancing. Keeping a bear trap handy,
nearby even if not in inventory, could be fun too.


Now if someone would just get on with implementing my idea
of moving the "enter explore mode" command into the extended
commands, so 'X' could be used to switch between weapon/shield
setups.... >:-D

>
>> I happened to have a ring of invisibility, jumping boots and was fast
>> after eating a quantum mechanic. Given a sufficiently large space and
>> light, I could give the run around to most monsters, hitting them
>> without being attacked in return.

Yay jumping boots! Actually, since knights have jumping
intrinsically and start with a lance, they can use this technique
from almost the start of the game.

Sure, you may break your lance, but then you're no worse off
than if you weren't using it. Remember people, use it before
you lose it! (If you really want one later, wish for it.)

Even just throwing daggers, a knight looks much more survivable
early on using this technique. Jump, let the monster step toward
you (and conveniently into your line of fire ;^), apply lance or
throw something, repeat.

(Fighting a monster like this resembles solving a chess
problem.)

Biggest drawback is increased hunger from jumping, but knights
start with lots of food. (The nag will eat food rations if
hungry enough.)

Yay knights! (No, I've never played a knight. Why do you
ask?)


>
>Trolls often try this but they are rarely fast enough
>to pull it off as a strategy.
>
>> The most fun came in Fort Ludios. The door from the Zoo to outside was
>> locked. Having applied a beartrap inside the door, I unlocked it and
>> stood back. One by one the soldiers walked into the trap and were
>> mercilessly hacked to death from a safe range. A minor nuisance was
>> caused by a wand of create monster, but for the most part it was a
>> massacre. I picked a +1 bardiche from the wreckage.
>>
>> Further fun was to be had at the entrance to the fort itself, with the
>> moat separating my Ranger from his helpless victims.
>
>It's interesting to look through the weights and damages.
>Spetum is well out of pattern compared to the rest. Spetum
>and ranseur are much lighter than the rest. Halberd does
>the most damage but is also the heaviest. Given the choice
>of a wide assortment of polearms I might chose a spetum.
>Then again given the abundance of other weapons I've
>rarely used polearms.
>

Just going for the lightest would make sense. Damage dealt is
less important because the whole idea is that you're hitting
while you can't be hit back. (Permanently engraving Elbereth is
a lot like that, or having Magicbane.)

Checking pole arms for enchantment bonuses looks like a good
idea (price id or spell of identification).




YANI: Get a list of the best enchantment of each type of
weapon/armor left behind when you exit the dungeon.

Imagine seeing that you'd missed a +4 silver saber that
was in the dungeon. Or the +2 Sunsword, etc.

Aside from that cruelty factor, it might encourage players
to look for and use non-dogma'd weapons. As this thread does.

It would also open players up to more of the possibilities
in the game.



Come to think of it, there's a pretty good argument that
a quarterstaff should be appliable at a distance of more than
one square. Maybe just to the second squares NSEW, and only
at higher skill levels.

That would make the quarterstaff more attractive in the
mid-to-late game. Especially since it prevents use of a
shield.

Wood golems would be more useful/distracting as well.
Checking each quarterstaff they leave behind would be a nice
way of distracting/annoying a wizard player.


>Thanks for the training.

Ditto.


Jove

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1123106491.143700.324360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
dfreybur@yahoo.com says...
> Jove wrote:
> > Might even be worth #enhancing. Keeping a bear trap handy,
> > nearby even if not in inventory, could be fun too.
>
> Might be worth enhancing once. I don't see them
> usefull enough to get them to expert.

No class can enhance polearm skill to Expert, thus the point is moot

At skilled, one can hit targets a chess knight's move away, which stops
the little buggers throwing things at you when stuck in a bear trap.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <8v92f19kaqc23t9g3u7jl7e7qlvhm90pn0@4ax.com>,
invalid@invalid.invalid says...
> - eels/krakens hahaha!

Probably would need item induced ESP, as need to actually see the square
to attack it, and it would be helpful to know where the things are.

 

[Guest]

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Andrew Kerr wrote:
> dfreybur@yahoo.com says...
> > Jove wrote:
>
> > > Might even be worth #enhancing. Keeping a bear trap handy,
> > > nearby even if not in inventory, could be fun too.
>
> > Might be worth enhancing once. I don't see them
> > usefull enough to get them to expert.
>
> No class can enhance polearm skill to Expert, thus the point is moot

I was thinking in terms of going from Unskilled to Basic,
but your next point nixed that idea:

> At skilled, one can hit targets a chess knight's move away, which stops
> the little buggers throwing things at you when stuck in a bear trap.

Right, so a class that can get to Skilled can benefit from
Skilled if a polearm-using strategy is used.

In a post above I wondered what polearm I'd use given
the choice. Halberd weighs too much so I noticed two
types of polearms only weigh 50 - ranseur and spetum.
The damage done by a spetum is greater per weight than
any other polearm. I started wondering how I could
get a spetum in any assured way, or at least a ranseur.

Looking through makemon.c to see who gets what, I see that
trolls come 50/50 unarmed or with a polearm. The polearms
are evenly distributed among spetum, ranseur, glaive and
partisan. Two are the 50-weight ones I would be interested.
The glaive I remember from pictures of executioners who
always seem to have either a huge axe or an edged polearm
aka glaive. By the time a character is routinely facing
trolls, having access to a spetum becomes expected.
Also the lowest rank soldiers and watchmen sometimes get
a random polearm so one may be available as early as
mine town. Plus strong monsters have a chance of getting
a lucern hammer but they will be a lot deeper than levels
that have plentiful trolls.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:09:19 -0500
Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>knights
>start with lots of food.

Carrots and apples?

 

[Guest]

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Andrew Kerr wrote:
> In article <8v92f19kaqc23t9g3u7jl7e7qlvhm90pn0@4ax.com>,
> invalid@invalid.invalid says...
>
>> - eels/krakens hahaha!
>
>
> Probably would need item induced ESP, as need to actually see the square
> to attack it, and it would be helpful to know where the things are.

Warning works fine. Or just randomly attacking likely squares,
for that matter. You don't need to be able to see the *monster*, just
the square.

This is my usual method of dealing with eels and kraken, for
those characters that aren't capable of spamming attack spells. It's a
fair bit faster than throwing rocks, and doesn't require periodic hunts
for more ammo. I don't usually carry a pole around, though... I'll
acquire one from a troll or soldier above Medusa's, and hang onto it
until I clear the Castle, at least.

Using your pet as a blocker is even more useful when you can
attack over his head without putting him at risk, too. I've also used
relatively harmless monsters that way... rust monsters are great for
that once you've got all your gear rustproofed.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

 

[James]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <1123106491.143700.324360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:

> - stone-to-flesh spell works a lot better on rocks than
> on polearms when you're really hungry

It looks to me like the nutrition from meatballs doesn't even make up for
the energy needed to eat them, not to mention the hunger for casting the
spell.

 

[seraphim]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1123106491.143700.324360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> - stone-to-flesh spell works a lot better on rocks than
> on polearms when you're really hungry

At 5 nutrition a shot you're going to have to stone-to-flesh A LOT of
rocks to get any meaningful amount of nutrition. Heck, if you arn't a
wizard you'll have to stone-to-flesh 7 rocks just to break even.

 

[Guest]

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<fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote:
>In article <1123106491.143700.324360@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>Doug Freyburger <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> - stone-to-flesh spell works a lot better on rocks than
>> on polearms when you're really hungry
>
>It looks to me like the nutrition from meatballs doesn't even make up for
>the energy needed to eat them, not to mention the hunger for casting the
>spell.

Meatballs are a 1-bite food with nutrition 5; not terribly worthwhile,
but you do come out four units of nutrition up. Remember also that you
can convert an *arbitrarily large* number of stone items into meat with
a single casting of stone to flesh.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

james wrote:

> It looks to me like the nutrition from meatballs doesn't even make up
> for the energy needed to eat them, not to mention the hunger for
> casting the spell.

As far as I know, in real life eating sellery (sp?) has this property of
consuming more food to eat it than it actually provides.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

From Boudewijn Waijers' balcony the following conversation drifted into
the orchestra:

> As far as I know, in real life eating sellery (sp?) has this property of
>
>consuming more food to eat it than it actually provides.
>
>
Celery (Apium graveolens) is usually consumed with topical additions--
ranch dressing, peanut butter, or cream cheese-- such that the celery
portion of the equation becomes infinitesimally small.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Seraphim wrote:

> At 5 nutrition a shot you're going to have to stone-to-flesh A LOT of
> rocks to get any meaningful amount of nutrition. Heck, if you arn't a
> wizard you'll have to stone-to-flesh 7 rocks just to break even.

What's your point? Rocks are usually found in *large* amounts.

--
Boudewijn.

--
"I have hundreds of other quotes, just waiting to replace this one
as my signature..." - Me

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:09:19 -0500
Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> knights start with lots of food.

Which they have to preserve as long as possible, to keep their steed
alive.

--
Boudewijn.

"It took me about *four* years to come from the combat-wombat
romping-stomping read-anything quaff-anything dont-care-about-pet
wonder-why-I'm-dead way of playing to a more thought- and careful
approach." - Jakob Creutzig, on rec.games.roguelike.nethack.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005 22:22:58 +0200, "Boudewijn Waijers"
<kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:09:19 -0500
>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> knights start with lots of food.
>
>Which they have to preserve as long as possible, to keep their steed
>alive.


What I actually posted was:

> Biggest drawback is increased hunger from jumping, but knights
>start with lots of food. (The nag will eat food rations if
>hungry enough.)



Since it seems to have escaped your attention, let's pull
out the sentence (which you unaccountably edited out) which
rebuts your objection:

>(The nag will eat food rations if hungry enough.)

"The nag" refers to the steed. I've used food rations to keep
pet horses alive for a long time.


A knight using the starting food to keep the horse alive is
wasting it. Much better to use it to for #jumping or to tame
replacement steeds. In fact, having two or three replacement
horses on hand as pets seems an excellent idea. (See: remuda).


Just keep an eye out for messages like:

"You feel worried about Dogfood IV." and
"Dobbin Too is confused from hunger."

#chat every so often with them.

Throw down a food ration or two every so often just in case.

If busy on a single level for awhile, lock them in a room with
some food rations.

I once got the message "You feel worried about...." but after
unlocking the door #chatting showed my warhorse William was fine,
but the food ration was gone.


Using food rations to keep the horse alive lets a knight use
the starting food for #jumping with his lance's ranged attack to
hit monsters without being hit back.

It's a lot of work, but proper application should make early
knights much more survivable.


Jove

 

[Guest]

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Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 16:09:19 -0500
> Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>knights start with lots of food.
>
>
> Which they have to preserve as long as possible, to keep their steed
> alive.

I find that my starting horse tends to commit suicide by
too-tough-critter long before I run out of food for it. Not only that,
but so do my second, third, and fourth horses. (I usually give up on
warhorses and start looking for nastier mounts to charm about that
point.)

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

John Campbell <jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote:
> I find that my starting horse tends to commit suicide by
>too-tough-critter long before I run out of food for it. Not only that,
>but so do my second, third, and fourth horses. (I usually give up on
>warhorses and start looking for nastier mounts to charm about that
>point.)

Past the point where you have magic missile, spellcasting-friendly
armour, Excalibur, expert long sword skill, and the Mirror, using a
steed with your knight is gilding the lily. Post-Quest knights are
obscenely powerful even without anything to ride. Pre-Quest, virtually
none of my characters have had convenient means to hand with which to
procure a steed potent enough to be worth riding. (I have better things
to spend early wishes on, like speed boots, DSMs, reflection devices,
etc.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
illusion/kinetics controlling is love

 

[spoon]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Andrew Kerr wrote:
>
> I was disappointed to find that a creature detected by telepathy alone
> couldn't be attacked by polearm.

It can if you use 'F'. From the Guidebook:

F[yuhjklbn]
Prefix: fight a monster (even if you only guess
one is
there)


Rob Wilderspin

 

[Guest]

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On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 23:10:48 +0000, John Campbell wrote:

> I find that my starting horse tends to commit suicide by
> too-tough-critter long before I run out of food for it. Not only that, but
> so do my second, third, and fourth horses. (I usually give up on warhorses
> and start looking for nastier mounts to charm about that point.)

Yeah. The poor horses arein dire need of a barding patch. And maybe a
patch to (a)pply amulets around a horse's neck. Horsemen have, for
centuries, attached charms to their horses' saddles and manes and so forth
to ward off evil, but you still can't do it in nethack.
Hmm.. I'd at least settle for a blessed +6 Saddle of St. George: protects
against dragons and devils.

 

[seraphim]

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"Boudewijn Waijers" <kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote in
news:dcttcl$64i$1@news1.zwoll1.ov.home.nl:

> Seraphim wrote:
>>
>>>> [Rocks vs Polearms as a ranged weapon]
>>>
>>> [You can stone-to-flesh rocks]
>>
>> At 5 nutrition a shot you're going to have to stone-to-flesh A LOT
>> of rocks to get any meaningful amount of nutrition. Heck, if you
>> arn't a wizard you'll have to stone-to-flesh 7 rocks just to break
>> even.
>
> What's your point? Rocks are usually found in *large* amounts.

It doesn't matter what quantity rocks are found in, it matters what
quantity you are willing to carry around with you when you use them as
a way to kill eels. Rocks have a weight of 10 and if you are carrying
around *large* amounts of them then you won't be able to carry much
else. On a weight-vs-nutrition basis you'd be better off carrying just
about anything else along, the only thing I could find that was a poor
were cursed potions of booze and fruit juice.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

If this were added, I would think that S and s monsters should be
automatically hidden in the long grass, but not the short grass. (Of
course, I'm sure this would be a significant change as they can
currently only hide under objects, and a green . would be an empty
space if the normal Nethack convention were followed.) If this were
done, should x monsters also be automatically hidden? How about r's?

Could one apply a bladed weapon to cut straw? Should Straw Golems leave
straw? (I think so).

Would fire set long grass on fire? Would fire spread from one space of
burning long grass to an adjacent one? That could be nifty: faced with
a large area of long grass, you might want to set it all ablaze to
flush out any critters.

-Harold Hill

 

[Guest]

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In article <1123234771.923816.184140@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
spoon says...
>
> Andrew Kerr wrote:
> >
> > I was disappointed to find that a creature detected by telepathy alone
> > couldn't be attacked by polearm.
>
> It can if you use 'F'. From the Guidebook:
>
> F[yuhjklbn]
> Prefix: fight a monster (even if you only guess
> one is
> there)
>
>
> Rob Wilderspin
>
>
F only attacks adjacent squares, where polearms to d2 damage, and the
enemy can (shock!) hit back.