Galadriel's Appearance?

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Red Beard wrote:

> Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
> born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
> their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
> don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
> they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"? What about Men?

I'm no Tolkien expert, but an elf whose earthly form is destroyed spends time
in a special location in The West until they are granted new bodies. This
happened to Glorfindel, who we met in the Fellowship of the Ring. Unlike the
Ainur, they seem to _need_ bodies.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

 

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On 28 Jan 2005 17:07:47 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
wrote:

>In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
>Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.
>
>How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?

Do you think Terror might need a Your Species Only limitation?
Darnit, I'd hoped it was all figured out by now!

-- M.J.

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:jjklv05q03jm5ig1pjl4d72n6gj0cltrdc@4ax.com:

> Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
> born in -- and as part of -- Creation.

But some of the Elves were bathed in the light of the Trees.

 

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This gets really complicated, as J.R.R.T. continued to extend the
writings about How Things Work. Elves and Men are
_both_ creatures of spirit and flesh, and both continue their conscious
existence even after the total destruction of their
flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different, though,
as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.

Elven souls do not, and _can not_, leave thsi world (which might
actually include the rest of the physical universe), _no matter
what_. Instead, the soul of a 'dead' Elf goes to the Halls of Mandos,
and after a 'time of waiting' can be rebodied if the Valar
give consent, though usually an Elf who is so rebodied remains in
Valinor afterward. Some Elves choose to wait longer than others to
return to physical form, and some are not allowed to return as penalty
for various offenses. An Elf _can_ opt never to
return, eschewing the world entirely, but this is Not Approved, and the
one known case of it led to all sorts of bad aftereffects. It's
just as immoral for an Elf to try to get out of immortality as it is
for a mortal to try to live forever.

Men also go to the Halls of Mandos, for a little while, when they die.
But they don't stay long, they depart from there to leave the
world entirely, and they don't return (at least not until Judgement
Day). Where they go, not even most of the Ainur have any idea, and the
two that do aren't talking. As a side-effect of this spiritual
difference, it's possible for an Elf to find himself/herself stuck with
a foreordained Fate that s/he just simply _cannot_ avoid. Men do not
suffer this problem, our fate in this world is not settled, though a
happy ending is not guaranteed.

It's widely believed by the Elves that whatever after-life awaits Elves
and Men is _separate_, so that after their final parting, Elves and Men
do not meet again. That was why Luthien and Arwen's choices were so
painful for their Elven kin, the separation involved would last
_forever_. For them to meet again would take nothing less than the
intervention of God..

Like Elves, Men apparently have some limited choice of how long to
linger in the Halls of Mandos. Beren, for ex, waited there for his
Elven lady-love Luthien to join him, putting off his scheduled
departure in hopes she could accompany him. Presumably, though, he
could not have delayed indefinitely.


Shermanlee

 

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IIRC, not only is Gandalf's embodiment more 'permanent' or 'deeper'
than most such Ainur physicalities, he also takes on some of the limits
of perception of Men and Elves. Gandalf, as a 'mortal', to some degree
_thinks_ like a mortal.

His body is even physical enough to suffer from nicotine addiction, and
some
of the withdrawal effects of such (though presumably he is immune to
lung cancer and emphysema). He suffers from hunger and thirst the same
way the rest of us do, etc.

 

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dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb) writes:

> In article <kobjv0ph93v08v9ekpli60ur3msq65amuj@4ax.com>,
> Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>I'm even more confused as to what to make Gandalf the Grey. I don't
>>think his Appearance should be with the Universal enhancement until
>>he's reborn as the White -- that's if Universal should apply at all.
>
> How can it be universal when creatures of the Dark fear him?

Reputation -5 ("Do not screw with Gandalf"), amongst the creatures of
the Dark?

Shalon Wood

--
Check out Strange Love -- an ezine of science fiction, fantasy, and
paranormal erotica. Only $2 for more than 20,000 words of fiction!

http://strangelove.pele.cx

 

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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:15:31 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>>end of Book I, Fellowship).
>
>Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
>born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
>their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
>don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
>they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"?

Elves go to the Halls of Mandos.

>What about Men?

They have a separate afterlife about which nothing is known.

 

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rgorman@telusplanet.net (David Johnston) abagooba zoink larblortch
news:41fa8a17.1489584548@news.telusplanet.net:

> On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:15:31 -0500, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On 28 Jan 2005 05:09:29 -0800, "Neon Fox" <neonfox@volcanomail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Then I respectfully suggest that you reread Tolkein, as you have
>>>missed a number of direct statements to that effect. I
>>>have no books at hand to provide verbatim examples, and will
>>>simply point in the direction of the flight to the Ford (right at the
>>>end of Book I, Fellowship).
>>
>>Though the Elves are certainly closer to magic than physics, they were
>>born in -- and as part of -- Creation. Unlike the Ainur, who can have
>>their earthly forms destroyed only to be beamed back down, I still
>>don't understand what happens to the Elves if they're killed -- do
>>they have "souls" that ascend into "heaven"?
>
> Elves go to the Halls of Mandos.
>
>>What about Men?
>
> They have a separate afterlife about which nothing is known.
>
>

It is hinted that they are "free of the world"--they go beyond Arda.

 

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On 28 Jan 2005 21:11:53 -0800, "Johnny1a" <shermanlee1@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different, though,
>as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.

So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal? Do
Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically considered
human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?


>Like Elves, Men apparently have some limited choice of how long to
>linger in the Halls of Mandos. Beren, for ex, waited there for his
>Elven lady-love Luthien to join him, putting off his scheduled
>departure in hopes she could accompany him. Presumably, though, he
>could not have delayed indefinitely.

Did Tolkien ever explain everything, even in rough-draft form? He
spent a huge part of his life inventing an in-depth mythology for a
country that didn't really have one its own, but did he intend to
leave it as a cliff-hanger?

Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?

Lastly, are there any GURPS or other RPG suppliments that *properly*
interpret Tolkien's vision (even unofficial publications)? I've seen
a little of MERP, and I must praise the author(s) of Decipher's new
LotR RPG for at least *trying* to show both the movie and book
versions, but how can an amateur know for certain what's really a
proper Tolkien-based RPG?


-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news😛vfov0dhcmr1e12rabfbsshdoqv4umnveu@4ax.com:

> So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal? Do
> Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically considered
> human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?

Hard to say. Elrond and Elros were given a choice, but all the descendents
of each were thus bound. From the wording in the appendices, I think that
Arwen's descendents were also bound. Her fundamental nature changed.

> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?

It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.

 

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On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:53:16 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
<cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:

>> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
>> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?
>
>It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.

Yes, but how much of it is J.R.R. Tolkien, and how much is what his
son (or whom ever) has "finished" in J.R.R.'s stead?

-- M.J.

 

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Red Beard wrote:
> On 28 Jan 2005 21:11:53 -0800, "Johnny1a" <shermanlee1@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >flesh-and-blood forms. Their _spiritual_ nature is different,
though,
> >as opposed to their relatively similar physical nature.
>
> So that's why they have to make a choice to go West or die mortal?
Do
> Arwen's kids get a choice, or are their souls automatically
considered
> human because Arwen already gave up her immortality?

The thing is, Arwen has human ancestry too, as does her father and her
brothers.

Luthien was 'pure' Immortal on both sides, her falling in love with a
human had repercussions that went all the way up the ladder, in the end
God laid down special rules for her descendants.

Elrond and Elros were granted the choice of which Kindred they would be
counted with. If they chose mortality, their descendants would
likewise be irrevocably mortal. If they chose immortality, their
descendants retained a period of time in which they themselves could
choose to be mortal if they wished.
Shermanlee

 

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Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
news😛96qv0h9gkpsa5an8o3vrsf5npmvef6l84@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:53:16 -0600, "Bryan J. Maloney"
> <cavaggione@comcast.ten> wrote:
>
>>> Furthermore, should we really look to his heirs and/or descendants to
>>> publish Tolkien's "unfinished" works and/or complete them for us?
>>
>>It's called "History of Middle Earth" and is a large multi-volume set.
>
> Yes, but how much of it is J.R.R. Tolkien, and how much is what his
> son (or whom ever) has "finished" in J.R.R.'s stead?

It's pretty much all J.R.R.'s stuff, "unfinished" but annotated. It's
"drafts", "notes", and other such items.

 

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In article <Xns95EABCB37E924Yarblookie@216.196.97.136> on Wed, 26 Jan 2005
17:32:54 -0600, cavaggione@comcast.ten (Bryan J. Maloney) wrote:

> Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
> news:mi8ev05ualbtspujhurpkpn070js1oq4nj@4ax.com:
>
> > On one hand, I think Transcendent covers the whole "Elf inner light"
> > thing nicely; yet, on the other, it doesn't really seem appropriate
> > for any earthly being.
>
> As far as Tolkien was concerned, only the Avari would have been earthly
> beings as far as Elves were concerned. Galadriel was no earthly being.
> She had seen the Light of the Silmarils, firsthand.

I'm not sure I'd go quite as far as "only the Avari" on that. The handful
of surviving Calaquendi, which includes Galadriel, are way beyond the
earthly - but remember they're also at least 7,000 years old and lived in
interesting times. But an ordinary Eldar of more recent birth, of
Nandorin or Sindarin descent (green-elf, like Legolas, or grey-elf like
the population of Rivendell and the Havens) is much more earthly than
that.

The point is, really, that the scale for elves starts in a pretty similar
region to competent humans but the top end is much much higher. The
greatest elves of the Third Age are Elrond and Galadriel.

Getting back to the original question, Galadriel is staggeringly beautiful
by Elf standards. There's a story somewhere about Feanor falling for her
when they were back in Valinor and propositioning her (she turned him
down).

I'd give Galadriel, Arwen and Luthien Transcendent Beauty. I'd also drop
in a bunch of other things (Luthien defintiely has Voice, for example) and
make Galadriel a complete reaction monster. Note that a negative reaction
to Galadriel just doesn't happen. (eg Frodo offers her the Ring).

I'm actually tempted to go as high as Beautiful as the norm for Tolkien
High-Elves. I can't think of a single elflord in the entire mythology who
shouldn't have at least Beautiful/Handsome. Physical beauty is used
pretty consistently as a sign of lineage among elves. Galradiel, for
example, is the daughter of Finarfin and is therefore descended from all
three houses of the Eldar.

--
Richard Gadsden
"I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it" - Attributed to Voltaire