Genju + Hideous Laughter

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Hello,

I recently came upon the following situation in which I wasn't able to
tell the final power/toughness values:

Player A activates his Genju of the Fields which enchants a plains. So the
plains becomes a 2/5 Spirit creature after this ability resolved. Then
Player B plays a Hideous Laughter and once that resolves the 2/5 creature
becomes a 0/3 creature.

Now player A activates the Genju ability once more. As this is a
well-known trick to get multiple of the life gain abilities onto the
creature I am not sure whether the plains will be a 2/5 or still a 0/3
creature now ? I tend to say it's 2/5, as the ability of the Genju
specifically says so and by that time the -2/-2 from the laughter is a
thing of the past. But I'm not sure about this, as the plains is still the
same creature which got -2/-2 until end of turn.




Genju of the Fields
W
Enchant Plains
2: Until end of turn, enchanted Plains becomes a 2/5 white Spirit creature with "Whenever this
creature deals damage, you gain that much life." It's still a land.
When enchanted Plains is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the Fields from your
graveyard to your hand.

Hideous Laughter
2BB
Instant - Arcane
All creatures get -2/-2 until end of turn.
Splice onto Arcane 3BB (As you play an Arcane spell, you may reveal this card from your hand
and pay its splice cost. If you do, add this card's effects to that spell.)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Frank Raiser <frank.raiser.doesnt@like.spam.informatik.uni-ulm.de> wrote:
>I recently came upon the following situation in which I wasn't able to
>tell the final power/toughness values:

Okay, let's see what we can do.

>Player A activates his Genju of the Fields which enchants a plains. So the
>plains becomes a 2/5 Spirit creature after this ability resolved. Then
>Player B plays a Hideous Laughter and once that resolves the 2/5 creature
>becomes a 0/3 creature.

2/5 base -2/-2 = 0/3.

>Now player A activates the Genju ability once more. As this is a
>well-known trick to get multiple of the life gain abilities onto the
>creature I am not sure whether the plains will be a 2/5 or still a 0/3
>creature now ? I tend to say it's 2/5, as the ability of the Genju
>specifically says so and by that time the -2/-2 from the laughter is a
>thing of the past. But I'm not sure about this, as the plains is still the
>same creature which got -2/-2 until end of turn.

It is still 0/3.

Why?

Because, and we have to look into the dangerous-to-the-brain "layers" part
of continuous-effect interactions for this, the Plains creature is getting its
"you are 2/5" in layer 4, type/subtype/supertype-changing effects (see
418.5a and 418.5b), while it's getting the "you get -2/-2" effect in layer
6, power/toughness-changing effects (418.5a again). The "this is a 2/5
creature with <ability>. It's still a land" is ALWAYS applied in layer 4,
before the "this gets -2/-2", regardless of how many times it's applied ...
so the -2/-2 is always "on top of" the 2/5.

So turning it into a 2/5 creature _again_ doesn't "overwrite" the 'and it
has -2/-2 also' effect; it's still going to end up 0/3.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 12 May 2005 14:14:27 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:
>Because, and we have to look into the dangerous-to-the-brain "layers" part
[..]
>So turning it into a 2/5 creature _again_ doesn't "overwrite" the 'and it
>has -2/-2 also' effect; it's still going to end up 0/3.

I can see why you feel this is dangerous to the brain.


Jasper

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>Because, and we have to look into the dangerous-to-the-brain "layers" part
>[..]
>>So turning it into a 2/5 creature _again_ doesn't "overwrite" the 'and it
>>has -2/-2 also' effect; it's still going to end up 0/3.
>
>I can see why you feel this is dangerous to the brain.

That plus the "we have six layers, number FIVE of which is "everything else""
plus "oh, and in each layer apply characteristic-setting effects first,
ignoring that there are about two in all of Magic which look like they
depend on something else in the layer, then counters' effects, then all
other stuff" plus several other hidden little details.

So far, _all_ the continuous-effect interaction paradigms Magic has had have
been rivetted-together kludges. (To be fair, this is mainly because Magic
started OFF with way too many types of interacting effects - copy effects,
type-changing, editing effects, counters (both named, and +1/+1 and +1/+0),
control-changing effects, and power-toughness-changing effects were -all there
in Alpha-... and any system we have has to take them all into account AND
reproduce most of the behavior expected for the corner cases...) At least
interrupt timing is No More...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote:

> counters (both named, and +1/+1 and +1/+0)

Don't forget about the anonymous counters in first edition.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W