German Law Requires Companies To Swiftly Delete 'Obviously Illegal' User Content

[bit_user]

German politicians: I hope it is considered hate speech in your world, but my personal desire is that ...

Yeah, I don't know about hate speech, but that crosses certain lines of decorum and decency.

What puzzles me is that you recognize China is far worse, in this regard. Then, why so much hate for Germany?

 

[jeremy2020]

It should be noted that Germany doesn't have "Freedom of Speech".

We should also look much closer to home. The US government is trying to do the same thing. When these laws come about the companies will err on the side of caution and just censor everything that may have any remote chance of getting them fined.

 

[therealduckofdeath]

It should be noted that Germany doesn't have "Freedom of Speech".

We should also look much closer to home. The US government is trying to do the same thing. When these laws come about the companies will err on the side of caution and just censor everything that may have any remote chance of getting them fined.

Germany does have freedom of speech. Just like everything else in a functional society, it comes with appended laws, exactly like in the States. The laws address different things, though, as Germany and the US are separate countries with separate histories. Threats towards the president in the US is a big no-no, probably as a result of so many US presidents being assassinated over the years. Fascist propaganda is a big no-no in Germany, because of the obvious. They have first hand experience of what it inevitably leads to.

 

[bit_user]

Germany does have freedom of speech. Just like everything else in a functional society, it comes with appended laws, exactly like in the States. The laws address different things, though, as Germany and the US are separate countries with separate histories. Threats towards the president in the US is a big no-no, probably as a result of so many US presidents being assassinated over the years. Fascist propaganda is a big no-no in Germany, because of the obvious. They have first hand experience of what it inevitably leads to.

I don't really know about German law, but I'm not aware of any reason you couldn't even go so far as to make such threats, in the US. What's actually illegal is conspiracy, which is the point at which you start taking actions consistent with enacting the threatened illegal activity. However, the simple act of making such threats might be construed as probable cause for having you placed under surveillance.

The limits of freedom of speech, in the US: where the act of such speech directly causes harm (like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater), slander/libel (civil offenses), and undermining national security.

The thing that strikes me as odd about this thread as that there seem to be some freedom of speech absolutists who are criticizing Germany, some general anti-German sentiment, and a few (like virtualban) who voice both. What I wonder is why nobody appreciates the fact that the German people sacrificed some of their own freedoms in atonement for the Holocost and to help ensure that it's never repeated.

 

[falchard]

The problem with the current Germany is that they no longer know what happened during the Holocaust. It's similar to the US where people don't know what happened with the KKK so their perspective is skewed. The propaganda now pushes the narrative forward instead of the reality.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

The minister believes that the real attacks against freedom of speech happen when some people use hateful comments and threats to silence and harass others online. In regards to mandating that companies such as Facebook and Google remove hateful comment from their platforms, the minister noted that the companies are not “above the law” and that they must fulfill their obligations.

I agree 100%. The anonymity of the Internet makes people more inclined to do hate speech, make threats against others, and bully and harass others, and quite frankly it ticks me off. It's all because they don't have to look someone in the eye.

 

[Maarsch]

The problem with the current Germany is that they no longer know what happened during the Holocaust. It's similar to the US where people don't know what happened with the KKK so their perspective is skewed. The propaganda now pushes the narrative forward instead of the reality.

That's not my experience.
Noone knows as much as in the years following, of course.
But it is still impressed upon the children in school fairly rigorously, for many schoolchildren that includes a/several visit(s) to a concentration camp (I assume proximity to one still open plays a part in that). Everyone has family stories of the war - even allowing for the stories of that one uncle that was a bit too zealous to be ignored. Every city has lost neighbourhoods/churches/stuff. New media is still released dealing with it.

I am sure there are those that don't believe, but they are few in number. (Although it is illegal here to deny it so while I have talked to a few Americans that deny the holocaust happened there might be more Germans I know that feel the same but keep their opinion to themselves)
There are those that are pissed off that they still have to live under the mistakes of their forebears, but they do know and acknowledge it did happen.
I haven't met anyone that believes that Germany was the victim in that war (although some perceive things like Dresden and the bit with the soviets toward the end as a bit excessive).

But at the same time. There's people arrested every year at rallies where that stupid flag is still flown/that stupid salute is still given. Afd, which is a political party running on German nationalism and populism and totally aren't very close to nazis, pinky swear, still get votes.

I forgot who it was that said he thought Germany could very well revert to anti-outsider hate/nationalism that has been winning more and more votes in France and the Netherlands if the economy wasn't going quite as well. And lo-and-behold the places in Germany where the economy isn't running too hot and unemployment is high is where Afd is strong.

Living and working in not-those-parts though I never got the impression that lessons from WWII have been mostly forgotten.

 

[falchard]

I think the part that was lost was the full history of it. Why were the Jews singled out? Why were they sent to Prison camps? How did they incinerate 10 million bodies when it is physically impossible to do in the amount of time specified with the facilities specified while wasting resources that could be used elsewhere? To me the reality that brought about those changes in Germany, and how 10 million people died in these camps has been lost to a rather superficial sort of reasoning. "The Germans believed they were the master race, and where eliminating inferior races." To me the initial reason for the Jews being singled out was their support for Communism in the 30s. They controlled much of the banking sector and used their wealth to influence policy before the Nazis came into power. During WW2 they were viewed as potential traitors due to their Communist leanings and were placed in camps similar to Japanese in the US. Due to German views on communists as seen with the amount of dead Russian PoWs, and the ailing economy in Germany towards the end of the war these camps were not properly rationed. The people in these camps mostly died of hunger and illness. Incineration to prevent the spread of disease.

Similar things parallel the racist narrative in the US. Why did the south secede? It was much more for economic reasons and representation than anything else. Why was the civil war fought? It was due to the US holding a hostile military base in another country.

The thing is without knowing the real reasons, we end up with a superficial view on how things came to be. Then what would be the point of learning from history?

 

[bit_user]

That's... interesting.

The thing is without knowing the real reasons, we end up with a superficial view on how things came to be. Then what would be the point of learning from history?

How do you decide which are the real reasons?

 

[Maarsch]

Much of the nuance is lost to all but study this, of course.
And I don't think that much detail is taught in schools here. Nor could they probably justify the time you'd have to spend digging into things that deeply (this is a university level specialization, after all).
I assume the impact of the end of WWI and Versailles is covered but . . . . that is all a little bit off a tangent on the original article.

If they use it to censor/limit freedom of speech, this is a bad thing.
If they end up using it to keep things which are illegal off the internet . . . I won't have a problem with it. Legality is a local+national+international concept, and the internet is an international one, so I'm sure implementation will not be easy or straightforward.
But considering I get my ads in German and Chinese facebook is a thing . . . .

 

[TruthTeller]

If freedom means anything at all, it is the liberty to tell others what they do not want to hear.

 

[falchard]

That's... interesting.

The thing is without knowing the real reasons, we end up with a superficial view on how things came to be. Then what would be the point of learning from history?

How do you decide which are the real reasons?

That's the thing. You will never know the real reasons and just need to look at various sources to come to a reasonable conclusion yourself like anything else. That's the problem right now. We only know 1 narrative that does not dig too deep into the history. To make an informed decision, you need to know a bit more information.

 

[Karadjgne]

Freedom of speech is the single most misinterpreted, misunderstood and bulls.. t expression there is. Even here in the US where it's the #1 ammendment, it's stomped on every day by countless ppl, including the government. It boils down to you having the right to say what you want, when you want, but you had better be in a windowless room that's soundproofed, because there's so many other laws, that if your opinions become public, you can be prosecuted or you can cause all kinds of chaos. All it takes is one old black lady in Chicago to get offended (finally?) over a flag that's being flying for 100years in South Carolina and Chicago all of a sudden is on chaos with riots from idiots who had no cause, all of a sudden being offended, and getting a cause to be idiots.
Free speech? No such beastie. There's only free' as long as it doesn't affect anyone else' speech.
You want to put your opinions out there fine, make them public fine, just don't bi(complain)tch when it comes back to bite you in the a(what you sit on)ss.
Germany just seems to have announced that it intends to be the one who will bite, or is deafening the innocent, in an attempt to get rid of the hate. Can't blame them. All it took is one idiot to get power in Germany, and his hatred turned the world upside down. If someone had bitten him earlier and put his opinions behind bars (or better under the ground) before he had the ability to influence so many, the world would be a better place, and a whole segment of the world's population wouldn't have undergone the brutality it did.

Some things just have no place on this planet, hate speech being one of them and I can't blame Germany for finally getting the ba(round things you kick)lls to do something about it.

Say what you wish, just don't complain when someone else corrects your education at the end of a 2x4.

 

[bit_user]

The thing is without knowing the real reasons, we end up with a superficial view on how things came to be. Then what would be the point of learning from history?

How do you decide which are the real reasons?

That's the thing. You will never know the real reasons and just need to look at various sources to come to a reasonable conclusion yourself like anything else. That's the problem right now. We only know 1 narrative that does not dig too deep into the history. To make an informed decision, you need to know a bit more information.

I'm wary of anyone trying to read into historical events with a strong ideology. It's easy to cherry-pick facts that will support a given perspective or version of events.

 

[jimmysmitty]

This will be abused to silence criticism of the government. Calling it now.

It already has actually. In other cases of course. In some countries

If it's "in some other countries" then it's not this law. Regardless of whether this law is good or bad, it's flawed analysis to treat it as equivalent to different laws in different countries.

"Obviously illegal” under who's laws? Germany's? What right do they have to regulate the internet?

They don't but they act like it. The EU is mainly controlled and pushed by Germany, with France kind of helping. That's why so many companies keep getting fined for "anti-competitive" practices, mainly big companies.

The EU parliament has proportional representation, with Germany and France having a combined share of 170 seats. That's only 22.6% of the 751 total seats. I'm not exactly sure how that qualifies as controlling it.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/31/technology/facebook-like-defamation-switzerland/index.html

I think that if it is happening in a EU country, Switzerland, then this law is very relevant to it.

it starts with fined, then jail and finally "re-education". If people are afraid to support opposing view points to the majority due to it being considered "illegal content" then all we end up with is a same think state.

I like how this immediately became about Freedom of Speech.... The term "illegal content" can mean a lot of different things, not just censorship of speech or expression.

No but that is how it begins. Who is going to deem what is illegal content? You? Me? What I like and what you like may not be the same. I may not agree with your ideals nor you with mine however we have the right to hold and express them so long as they are not in violence.

For example, the UAE deems internet content that is "not inline with UAE laws" illegal content. That is a great way of controlling the populace. Yet here in the US we have formed, known parties that are anti-democracy and anti-capitalisim even though those are two of the corner stones of the country. In the UK, for now, you are able to express dissent about the royal family without fear of punishment. In some countries you cannot even say you disagree with them.

 

[bit_user]

Who is going to deem what is illegal content? You? Me? What I like and what you like may not be the same. I may not agree with your ideals nor you with mine however we have the right to hold and express them so long as they are not in violence.

IMO, you're getting worked up about the wrong thing. This doesn't classify any new content as illegal. What's troubling about this move is that it's effectively deputizing the private sector to do the policing of content.

If there's no disincentive for them not to remove non-illegal content, then they might use over-broad filters, just to be on the safe side. At best, users only recourse is to simply plead for them to re-instate legal content that's been removed. IMO, that's quite enough cause for concern.

BTW, did you just return from vacation?
; )

 

[jimmysmitty]

Who is going to deem what is illegal content? You? Me? What I like and what you like may not be the same. I may not agree with your ideals nor you with mine however we have the right to hold and express them so long as they are not in violence.

IMO, you're getting worked up about the wrong thing. This doesn't classify any new content as illegal. What's troubling about this move is that it's effectively deputizing the private sector to do the policing of content.

If there's no disincentive for them not to remove non-illegal content, then they might use over-broad filters, just to be on the safe side. At best, users only recourse is to simply plead for them to re-instate legal content that's been removed. IMO, that's quite enough cause for concern.

BTW, did you just return from vacation?
; )

It always starts one way. My only problem is seeing cases like the one I linked. It scares me as that's how it starts then bam. Great wall of the world.

And no I have just been busy with work and too tired to do much when I get home.