Government Shutdown

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.


There's plenty of articles (one on MSNBC this AM) pointing that under GW Bush, the national debt went from about $6 trillion dollars to about $10 trillion dollars in 8 years. Obama has gone from $10 trillion to over $14.7 trillion in 2.5 years...
 
You old folks are going to be oil before this issue is settled. I would like to point out one thing:

Instead of a detailed plan for developing more sources of natural gas, oil, and coal, including tar sands and oil shale, we still hear infantile chants about “wind, solar, and millions of new green jobs.” But solar panels and windmills will not be up to fueling the nation’s 250 million passenger cars and trucks any time soon.

Even if we got every single drop out of ANWR (An estimated "superfield" with 3.5 billion barrels of oil) that would supply America for 178 days.

Heres another good one from that article:

So, much of Alaska, the American West, and our coastal waters will remain off limits. The logic is that Americans can borrow to buy oil from foreign nations that are willing to drill in their fragile tundra, offshore seas, and natural preserves

The logic is we will let other countries completely destroy their natural resources while maintaining our own (or not ******* up wilderness preserves). Why would we want to shite in the bed we sleep in when we could pay the guy down the street to shite in his bed. The author present a lot of nice facts about the deficit which i can agree with, but the arrogance of drill baby drill seriously sends me into a furry. How does drilling make any sense this is a FINITE resource.
 
We dont have to use all of the oil only half of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

Besides whats the difference between 50 years and 100? why not move to other forms of energy now before being forced to? Why not anticipate a problem instead of reacting to one?

How come you haven't mentioned the environment. Polar bears love playing on pipelines, oh wait there aren't any left. NO PROBLEM!

Even if we drill all available oil fields and hoard all of the American oil for ourselves how long do you think we would last without having to ship some in from somewhere else? A year two years? Mining shales has proven to be incredibly environmentally friendly, have you ever seen the destruction in Tennessee, whole mountains have been mined into shiteholes for shale. Do you want your country to look like a strung out heroin addict? I dont I want my country to be clean and in one piece for my kids (someday).

I guess what im trying to say is drilling in protected wilderness reserves to get a very minuscule amount of oil is retarded. What about the effects of CO2 and greenhouse gases (-Insert Conspiracy theory here-)? Should we just keep burning fossil fuels until its a bigger problem? Besides moving away from fossil fuels will make us more independent from oil producing countries, then we wouldn't be fighting any wars because our energy comes from somewhere besides a poverty stricken war torn country we bombed the piss out of last week. I think that drilling for oil is direct support for terrorist organizations (USA included).

 


While sounding rational, this is really just a Democrat talking point. We really are discussing the budget here and Bush in his worst year with having to deal with 9/11, Katrina and two foreign wars ran a budget deficit of something like $168 billion. Now you can argue that approximately $100 billion was not reported and so if you add that in, Bush's worst deficit would be $268 billion roughly.

Obama is running deficits of over $1.5 TRILLION. No other president and congress in the history of the united States has ever spent more than Obama and the previous Democrat congress. It really is staggering and everyone agrees it is unsustainable. This is not a mess that "Bush created." That is an immature response by an immature president and congress blaming others for their incompetency.

One can also argue that the TARP bailout - largely a Bush idea that was implemented by Bush and Obama - was inherited by Obama. However, the TARP program actually has been entirely paid back and in many cases is MAKING MONEY for the government. To date, it is only $20 - $40 billion in the red and it will probably break even or make money and so you cannot factually blame TARP for the 1.6 TRILLION dollar deficits that the Democrat controlled congress and the Obama administration have brought on us.

To put this in perspective, it took Obama and the Democrat ruled Congress (before the last election) less than four years to spend more than all the other presidents and congress from Washington on have spent in the ENTIRE HISTORY of our country. And these figures are from the CBO.

I am a conservative first and do not automatically support the Republicans but it really is beyond dispute that government must drastically be cut. This is why rational and intelligent citizens of all races are joining the Tea Party in droves and its membership is exploding geometrically. Republicans, supported by independents, libertarians and so called "moderates" are easily our best and only chance to get this done.

It is not a matter of Republicans, or anyone for that matter, being cruel for wanting to cut government. It is a matter of absolute necessity! If we are going to maintain the highest standard of living in the world and not plunge ourselves into irreconcilable debt we must cut government spending. $41 Billion worth of cuts with a $1.6 trillion deficit are subtantially insufficient, but at least with a Republican House for the first year since Obama has been elected spending has started downward. This would not have occurred without kicking the Democrats out of the House.

 


It is somewhat amusing to hear the term that "the middle east hates us." The middle east Muslim countries seemingly hate everyone including each other. They are irrational, incredibly violent and incoherent - they deserve zero credibility. My neighbor across the street is an Iraqi that was driven out of Iraq by Saddam Hussein's violent regime and guess what - he absolutely loves what Bush did and he was there. He told me that the middle east Muslims "hate everyone and want to kill everyone that does not agree with them" and he is Muslim.

Without exception the most rational Muslim countries in the middle east are the most "westernized," and even they are unstable. Iraq is the first Muslim democracy in a Muslim country in 1400 years of history since that religion was founded. It is an extraordinary accomplishment. While the execution of the war in Iraq had many obvious failures, one can easily argue that Bush was visionary in trying to bring democracy to a Muslim country.

Even now across the world Muslims everywhere in several countries are seeking similar changes in their governments. This could radically change the world for the better. While we do not know the outcome of the mixture of Islam and democracy, we do know that true democracies/republics make more peaceful nations.

How does this benefit the US and other world democracies? It is one of the few scientific facts taught in the world of sociology that established democracies rarely go to war with one another. And yes this is true for democratic republics also.

If we want world peace, establishing democracies (peacefully if possible) is the most direct route. This is true even with all of the obvious flaws of democratic government. When we look over the risks to world peace right now we find that mostly Muslim countries with dictatorships (sometimes hidden dictatorships like Iran which has the facade of elections) are the greatest risk of plunging us into war. North Korea is a non-Muslim example of dictatorships causing wars. True monarchies also generate wars.

It shouldn't bother us that irrational countries in the middle east "hate us," as they pretty much hate everyone.
 


IMO, Obubba's trying to blame his deficit on Bush is ludicrous, and an obvious re-election ploy to soothe his Democratic base who might be wondering why he and the Dems didn't manage to pass an FY11 budget back last fall when they had control of both house & senate. I used to have respect for Obama but he is now showing his true colors as just another political hack whose main job from day 1 is to get re-elected.

And his 'raising the taxes on the rich' would be far more credible if his good buddy the CEO of General Electric managed to get GE to pay some corporate income tax on their billions of profits..

 
Obama does not understand that reducing spending, not raising taxes is the answer. Obama is an elitist who thinks He is smarter than the very people He has to work with at the federal level. Obama considers himself 'better'. Obama is in a few words is, "bad for the country". Not only that, Obama and his administrantion are elitist rubbish policymakers on both the foreign and domestic fronts.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/vranich-296360-jobs-moves.html

Why do these and the other companies move out of California?

9. High and unfair tax treatment
8. Regulatory burden
7. Unfriendly legal environment for business
6. Most expensive place to do business
5. Provable savings elsewhere
4. Public policies and taxes create unfriendly business climate
3. Uncontrollable public spending
2. More adversarial toward business than any other state
1. Poor rankings for California on lists ranging from taxes to crime rates to school dropout rates.
 
This is what I would do as President:

10) Reduce Taxes on middle class and create a better tax system based on revenue.
9) Give tax breaks to small and large enterprise for creating US jobs.
8) Apply better regulation on Wall Street and Banks.
7) Defund the Federal Reserve and stop printing Benjamins.
6) Begin and immediate withdrawal form Iraq and Afghanistan .
5) Review our Nations Income
4) Create Insourcing policies.
3) lower the National Debt to 12 Trilling in years.
2) communicate better with other countries and become a global leader of peace and Innovation
1) Be a great Nation Once More.
 
The threat to our culture comes from within. In the 1960s, there were welfare programs that created a culture of poverty in our country. Now, some people think we won that battle when we reformed welfare. But the liberals haven't given up.

At every turn, they tried to substitute government largness for individual responsibility. They fight to strip work requirements from welfare, to put more people on Medicaid, and remove more and more people from having to pay any income tax whatsoever.

Dependency is death to initiative, risk-taking and opportunity. Dependency is culture killing. It's a drug. We've got to fight it like the poison it is.

The attack on our culture is not the only a challenge that we face. We face economic competition unlike anything we have known before. China, and Asia are emerging from centuries of poverty. Their people are plentiful, innovative and ambitious.

If we don't change course, Asia or China will pass us by as the economic superpower, just as we passed England and France during the last century.


The prosperity and security of our children and grandchildren depend on us. Our prosperity and security also depend on finally acting to become energy-secure. Oil-producing states like Russia and Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and Iran are siphoning over $400 billion out of our economy. That's almost what we spent annually for our national defense. It is past time for us to invest in energy technology: nuclear power, clean coal, liquid coal, renewable resources, energy efficiency.

Simply put, America must never be held hostage by the likes of Putin, Chavez and Ahmadinejad.

And finally, let's consider the greatest challenge facing America, and for that matter facing the entire civilized world: the threat of radical, violent jihad.

As you know, in one wing of the world of Islam there's a conviction that all governments should be destroyed and replaced by a religious caliphate. These jihadists will battle any form of democracy because to them democracy is blasphemous, because it says that citizens, not God, shape the law.

They find the idea of human equality to be equally offensive. They hate everything we believe about freedom just as we hate everything they believe about radical jihad. To battle this threat, we've sent the most courageous and brave soldiers in the world.

But their numbers have been depleted by the Clinton years, when troops were reduced by 500,000, when almost 80 ships were retired from our Navy, and when our human intelligence was slashed by 25 percent. We were told we were getting a peace dividend. We got the dividend; we didn't get the peace.

intelligence was slashed by 25 percent. We were told we were getting a peace dividend. We got the dividend; we didn't get the peace.

In the face of evil and radical jihad, and given the inevitable military ambitions of China, we must act to rebuild our military might, raise military spending to 4 percent of our GDP, purchase the most modern armament, reshape our fighting forces for the asymmetric demands we now face, and give the veterans the care they deserve.

Soon the face of liberalism in America will have a new name. Whether it's Barack or Hillary, the result would be the same if they were to be able to...

... if they were to be able to win the presidency
 
Ok i agree completely with the Badge on a few issues.

First off becoming energy independent is necessary if America hopes to make it over the next 100 years +. I'm sorry to inform some of you that oil wont last forever.

The troop levels are a bit misleading for the second year in a row more soldiers have committed suicide then have died at the hand of radical jihadists. The people who are over there fighting for ideals of democracy deserve our fullest support both over seas and here at home.

1.5 Million Iraqi civilians have been seriously injured since the beginning of our war there. another 850,000 have been killed since 2001. 9,000 Afghani civilians have been killed another 15,000 seriously injured. If you stack the numbers American involvement in the middle east has killed almost 1 million people have been killed in just Iraq and Afghanistan.

Is radical jihad really the most pressing problem the whole world faces? I feel like I read about a lot of the same rhetoric when learning about the red scare, Ruski's that will stop at nothing to stop democracy and put cold hard communism in its place. What about the fact that clean drinking water isnt available to 1/4 of the worlds population? Or hunger is affecting almost half of the world population?

Most governments are a business, i think we can all agree on that. The real question though, is for the amount of money we are and have been spending do you feel any safer? Whats our return on the investment? 1500 American soldiers killed tens of thousands wounded and possibly hundreds of thousands that will never be able to lead a normal life. Is this worth it? Is stopping violent jihad worth trillions of dollars and the lives of so many Americans? All over the middle east, and lets not sugar coat this people we were not over there for the Iraqi people. We were over there to secure our own national interest i.e. OIL.

Osama got exactly what he wanted. One man hooked up to a dialysis machine didnt only (maybe) mastermind the violent murder of 300 people on 9/11 he also crippled us as a world power. He wanted us to go to Iraq to find him, he knew that it would not only embarrassed us on a global scale but also would require us to spend trillions of dollars and destroy more than 3000 lives. So two planes killing 3000 people have launched us into a shameful downward spiral that we dont even know how to get out of anymore, and has cost the world almost 1 million lives. .

Get our people out of Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, bring them home, educate the masses, and push as hard as we can towards energy independence.

Or else.........
 
But the point im trying to make is nothing good is coming from protecting our own interestes around the world.

This is what happened to the UK after WWII, India became independent and the Aussies sobered up long enough to get pissy at the Queen and the left. And well we all know those Canadiens are up to something....Im watching you.

we cant operate as a colonial power securing little bits of land here and there. Don't use the IBC website they only calculate based on the deaths recorded in Iraqi media (Newspaper, TV, Radio) you really think every civilian or Taliban fighter was listed in the Morning News?

From the IBC themselves
"We have not made use of Arabic or other non English language sources, except where these have been published in English. ... It is possible that our count has excluded some victims as a result."

And Another:

What we are attempting to provide is a credible compilation of civilian deaths that have been reported by recognized sources. Our maximum therefore refers to reported deaths — which can only be a sample of true deaths [if] one assumes that every civilian death has been reported. It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war.

Fuel prices are skyrocketing because fuel demand is increasing and production is starting to level off. Remember we just have to reach peak production and then slide back down the slope again never attaining the amount of oil to fuel the world. American needs a piece of that pie. What would happen if people knew production was going to slow? There would be a run on the pumps both by consumers and governments. America wants the pumps so no one can make a run on it without their say so. Its not stealing its securing, the govenment knows it can't keep drilling forever. Why have we been going further and further into remote ares to get fule? Answer: to meet production demands.

Wouldnt it make more sense to let other countries battle it out over the oil and we become the first superpower in modern history that doesn't have to import the power thats enables a society to function? How many soldiers are going to die defending oil in another 50 years?

Alright polar bears were kind of a tongue in cheek analogy about how starting oil production in ANWR would fukc the place up. Oil production is a messy business and the thought of tractor trailers and heavy industry shitteing ON MY land makes me sick. Remember that ANWR is a preserve, we all own that land(Except Reynod because hes from a place where the water spins the wrong way).



One last thing. I love this shite, having stimulating conversation (even with people who disagree) is the most healthy thing a citizen can do. I dont want to fight but I think a good debate is very Healthy. Danka :)
 
I find that picture Beautiful.

24_where_ANWR_was_born.jpg


well it is only .08% of the landmass
And BP technically had its safest year in 2010 if you look at it percentage wise.
What about the fact that even if all the oil that is projected to be there we would go through it in 178 days. I mean i guess we could sell it but wouldn't that defeat the point?
 


Heh, didn't you used to just wanna be a mod here on THG?? Or maybe that was Upendra.. Anyway, a modest jump from mod to prez I guess 😛..
 
55-Permanent_wilderness.jpg


From the Same site as your photo which is the Coastal Plains. I dont think drilling next to the Ocean is a good idea. Besides im sure something is living there besides oil.

Definition of Pristine: Remaining in a pure state; uncorrupted by civilization. - Sounds dead on.
 
But the point im trying to make is nothing good is coming from protecting our own interestes around the world.

Naive and uninformed doesn't begin to describe anyone who makes a statement like this. Our presence in Korea prevents all of Asia from being communist. Japan, N. Korea, Taiwan and every inch of Asia would be communist and do no business with the free world. Same in the middle east. People like Saddam Hussein or Iran's current leader will have control over two thirds of the world's known oil reserves. WTF? "Nothing is good from protecting our own interests around the world" Imbesillic statement.
 


From ANWR's website http://www.anwr.org/Background/How-much-oil-is-in-ANWR.php first paragraph on that page.

Geologists agree that the Coastal Plain has the nation's best geologic prospects for major new onshore oil discoveries. According to the Department of Interior's 1987 resource evaluation of ANWR's Coastal Plain, there is a 95% chance that a 'super field' with 500 million barrels would be discovered. DOI also estimates that there exists a mean of 3.5 billion barrels, and a 5% chance that a large Prudhoe Bay type discovery would be made.

so we have 3,500,000,000 gallons of oil, Ive looked in a few places for how much oil the US uses in any given day, which depending on the source comes out to around 20 million gallons a day.

20,000,000
÷3,500,000,000
______________

175 Days of oil use



 
Status
Not open for further replies.