Grounding whil building a pc? How?

[Az3EmX]

Hi as the title says i want to know how, i have searched a lot on the internet and i have come across many answers but can someone give me the easiest answer. (Without anti static gloves) And do i really need to ground myself?

 

[turkey3_scratch]

That is the problem. People think that this is not an issue nor a problem, then they just continue to work as they did before.
- "Why change things, it has always worked before" kind of mentality.

The big thing is not that electronics break down immateriality, the single most and important problem is called: ESD latency, which means there are for every electrostatic discharge, a faulty to the circuits that will not show itself directly. Things can work for days, months, years and suddenly - bam.

This is very critical and not so easy to spot, yet numerous of PC-builder cannot accept the importance of ESD-protection.
I cannot understand why? An ESD-wrist strap cost less than a Big Mac and take so little time to attach.

Best regards from Sweden

What do you mean a "faulty to the circuits"?

 

[Flyfisherman]

That is the problem. People think that this is not an issue nor a problem, then they just continue to work as they did before.
- "Why change things, it has always worked before" kind of mentality.

The big thing is not that electronics break down immateriality, the single most and important problem is called: ESD latency, which means there are for every electrostatic discharge, a faulty to the circuits that will not show itself directly. Things can work for days, months, years and suddenly - bam.

This is very critical and not so easy to spot, yet numerous of PC-builder cannot accept the importance of ESD-protection.
I cannot understand why? An ESD-wrist strap cost less than a Big Mac and take so little time to attach.

Best regards from Sweden

What do you mean a "faulty to the circuits"?

Hehe, ok.
Here take a look:
This is a damage caused by ESD, yet not completely faulty, but it will happens sooner or later:

And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDf8KTXyuaQ

 

[turkey3_scratch]

That is the problem. People think that this is not an issue nor a problem, then they just continue to work as they did before.
- "Why change things, it has always worked before" kind of mentality.

The big thing is not that electronics break down immateriality, the single most and important problem is called: ESD latency, which means there are for every electrostatic discharge, a faulty to the circuits that will not show itself directly. Things can work for days, months, years and suddenly - bam.

This is very critical and not so easy to spot, yet numerous of PC-builder cannot accept the importance of ESD-protection.
I cannot understand why? An ESD-wrist strap cost less than a Big Mac and take so little time to attach.

Best regards from Sweden

What do you mean a "faulty to the circuits"?

Hehe, ok.
Here take a look:
This is a damage caused by ESD, yet not completely faulty, but it will happens sooner or later:

And: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDf8KTXyuaQ

See, those videos bug the heck out of me because they don't talk about electrons or protons. They say things "build up static" as if there is some substance called "static". It amazes me how some of the experts in these fields ignore the complete fundamentals of physics which this phenomena is built upon. If they stopped using words like "static" people would be less confused and more informed.

It also talks about "producing static electricity". Aah, these are the things that give people misconceptions! We need to start talking about electrons, protons, and electric fields and less about static. Static is a term that involves those three things yet people ignore them.

 

[Flyfisherman]

Sorry, I'm out of words...

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Sorry, I'm out of words...

That's alright, it's just that this stuff is poorly taught and it irritates me. The entire field of "electricity" is probably the most horribly explained subject in history. It's nothing against you.

 

[Slumy__57]

I never said that it isn't an issue, I just said it is blown way out of proportion, which it absolutely is. I've been working on computers and servers at home, and in professional labs for years, and I've never experienced any ESD issues, nor have any of my coworkers or friends.

In my opinion, it's more of a personal preference thing. If you wanna go the extra mile and use ESD protective gear, go for it. If not, then with a few simple precautions, your risk of damaging your pc is not high enough to be of any real concern.

 

[Flyfisherman]

I rest my case.

 

[TJ Hooker]

See, those videos bug the heck out of me because they don't talk about electrons or protons. They say things "build up static" as if there is some substance called "static". It amazes me how some of the experts in these fields ignore the complete fundamentals of physics which this phenomena is built upon. If they stopped using words like "static" people would be less confused and more informed.

It also talks about "producing static electricity". Aah, these are the things that give people misconceptions! We need to start talking about electrons, protons, and electric fields and less about static. Static is a term that involves those three things yet people ignore them.

That video is meant for employee training. The people it's aimed at potentially have little to no higher education, and trying to teach them the physics of ESD is ultimately unnecessary, as the basics covered in those kinds of videos is typically enough for people to be able to do their jobs without damaging components.

Could you elaborate on why you don't phrases/terms like "building up/producing static" and "static electricity"? I mean, yeah, I guess some info is left out by saying it that way, but it's kind of just a matter of convenience. It's easier to say "producing static (electricity)" than "becoming positively or negatively charged by exchanging electrons with adjacent objects through triboelectric charging". It's like referring to a wall outlet as 120 V rather than 170sin(120*pi*t) V. The latter is more informative and accurate, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the former is misleading or wrong. I don't know, maybe we just think differently.

PS I'm fairly confident that the training video sampled in that youtube clip is the exact one used where I work, haha.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

See, those videos bug the heck out of me because they don't talk about electrons or protons. They say things "build up static" as if there is some substance called "static". It amazes me how some of the experts in these fields ignore the complete fundamentals of physics which this phenomena is built upon. If they stopped using words like "static" people would be less confused and more informed.

It also talks about "producing static electricity". Aah, these are the things that give people misconceptions! We need to start talking about electrons, protons, and electric fields and less about static. Static is a term that involves those three things yet people ignore them.

That video is meant for employee training. The people it's aimed at potentially have little to no higher education, and trying to teach them the physics of ESD is ultimately unnecessary, as the basics covered in those kinds of videos is typically enough for people to be able to do their jobs without damaging components.

Could you elaborate on why you don't phrases/terms like "building up/producing static" and "static electricity"? I mean, yeah, I guess some info is left out by saying it that way, but it's kind of just a matter of convenience. It's easier to say "producing static (electricity)" than "becoming positively or negatively charged by exchanging electrons with adjacent objects through triboelectric charging". It's like referring to a wall outlet as 120 V rather than 170sin(120*pi*t) V. The latter is more informative and accurate, but I wouldn't go as far as to say the former is misleading or wrong. I don't know, maybe we just think differently.

PS I'm fairly confident that the training video sampled in that youtube clip is the exact one used where I work, haha.

It is trying to explain the physics, though, but in a poorly manner. A simple "do this to ground yourself" and "don't do this" would have been a much more educational video for those employees with no education. For instance, it seems to imply that sliding is what "causes static electricity" when those chips (or whatever those black things are, I can't tell from the video quality) are sliding around and then they are let out onto that metal plate. I feel like this gives the workers the false impression that things rubbing or sliding together is required for "static electricity" and things that don't rub or slide will be fine.

Anybody without an education who is watching this video doesn't get a good idea of what he should or shouldn't do, rather, it'll just leave that person with a billion questions. The majority of people there, though, don't care about asking questions, they just accept what they see as true and say "okay, it is what it is". Whereas, if I was in that group of workers watching the video, I would have too many questions to ask I'd probably get fired from my job!

Some day down the line, some day far in the future when I finally manage to decipher everything, when I finally say, "I got it!" I'll definitely be writing informative articles, videos, tutorials, etc. aimed for people that explain stuff in a more proper manner than the majority of places I see. Very shortly ago I was in a room at the college I am going to. I had to make the decision right then and there: computer engineering, or electrical engineering. I chose computer engineering, because anything electrical frustrates me to a point where I get legitimately angry at times. Even though my interest is primarily in electrical engineering, I figured I'd still have too many questions and never be satisfied with the knowledge I have, whereas if I do computer engineering, it's all about applying stuff without knowing how that stuff actually works, and therefore is less stressful.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Spoiler

It is trying to explain the physics, though, but in a poorly manner. A simple "do this to ground yourself" and "don't do this" would have been a much more educational video for those employees with no education. For instance, it seems to imply that sliding is what "causes static electricity" when those chips (or whatever those black things are, I can't tell from the video quality) are sliding around and then they are let out onto that metal plate. I feel like this gives the workers the false impression that things rubbing or sliding together is required for "static electricity" and things that don't rub or slide will be fine.

Anybody without an education who is watching this video doesn't get a good idea of what he should or shouldn't do, rather, it'll just leave that person with a billion questions. The majority of people there, though, don't care about asking questions, they just accept what they see as true and say "okay, it is what it is". Whereas, if I was in that group of workers watching the video, I would have too many questions to ask I'd probably get fired from my job!

Some day down the line, some day far in the future when I finally manage to decipher everything, when I finally say, "I got it!" I'll definitely be writing informative articles, videos, tutorials, etc. aimed for people that explain stuff in a more proper manner than the majority of places I see. Very shortly ago I was in a room at the college I am going to. I had to make the decision right then and there: computer engineering, or electrical engineering. I chose computer engineering, because anything electrical frustrates me to a point where I get legitimately angry at times. Even though my interest is primarily in electrical engineering, I figured I'd still have too many questions and never be satisfied with the knowledge I have, whereas if I do computer engineering, it's all about applying stuff without knowing how that stuff actually works, and therefore is less stressful.

Hmm, fair enough, I guess the video does try and explain things. In the video's defense, that clip is just a sampler. I think the actual one is a lot longer, and presumably more detailed (can't really remember though). Not sure if it actually gets any better though.

Regarding needing to know how everything works to be an electrical engineer... I wouldn't be so sure 😛
In my experience you definitely don't need to have that kind of deep understanding to graduate. For example, transistors: I had maybe one course that really delved into the physics of them, and no one had a clue what the hell was going on it that class. But the rest of the courses you were fine if you just remembered their general behaviour in a circuit along with a few equations. I kind of feel like that's part of engineering, for better or worse: it's better to understand the practical effects and impacts rather than the mechanisms behind something (this is definitely a generalization though, there are plenty of engineers out there who know the nitty gritty details).

Unfortunately I haven't managed to find a proper electrical engineering job yet (stuck in systems engineering for now), but based on my internship I'd say that any deeper understanding you need to actually practice EE in industry is something you'll probably learn on the job.

 

[mjslakeridge]

TJ- I think your statement in the final paragraph is true for a lot of professions. I got my undergrad in Accounting and passed the CPA exam, but had to learn a lot on the job (oil and gas accounting, futures trading accounting, property accounting, etc.) I have always thought that college "teaches you how to learn". When I got my MBA 10 years later, the coursework was so much easier, since I had years of management and practical experience to apply the concepts taught in grad school.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

Spoiler

It is trying to explain the physics, though, but in a poorly manner. A simple "do this to ground yourself" and "don't do this" would have been a much more educational video for those employees with no education. For instance, it seems to imply that sliding is what "causes static electricity" when those chips (or whatever those black things are, I can't tell from the video quality) are sliding around and then they are let out onto that metal plate. I feel like this gives the workers the false impression that things rubbing or sliding together is required for "static electricity" and things that don't rub or slide will be fine.

Anybody without an education who is watching this video doesn't get a good idea of what he should or shouldn't do, rather, it'll just leave that person with a billion questions. The majority of people there, though, don't care about asking questions, they just accept what they see as true and say "okay, it is what it is". Whereas, if I was in that group of workers watching the video, I would have too many questions to ask I'd probably get fired from my job!

Some day down the line, some day far in the future when I finally manage to decipher everything, when I finally say, "I got it!" I'll definitely be writing informative articles, videos, tutorials, etc. aimed for people that explain stuff in a more proper manner than the majority of places I see. Very shortly ago I was in a room at the college I am going to. I had to make the decision right then and there: computer engineering, or electrical engineering. I chose computer engineering, because anything electrical frustrates me to a point where I get legitimately angry at times. Even though my interest is primarily in electrical engineering, I figured I'd still have too many questions and never be satisfied with the knowledge I have, whereas if I do computer engineering, it's all about applying stuff without knowing how that stuff actually works, and therefore is less stressful.

Hmm, fair enough, I guess the video does try and explain things. In the video's defense, that clip is just a sampler. I think the actual one is a lot longer, and presumably more detailed (can't really remember though). Not sure if it actually gets any better though.

Regarding needing to know how everything works to be an electrical engineer... I wouldn't be so sure 😛
In my experience you definitely don't need to have that kind of deep understanding to graduate. For example, transistors: I had maybe one course that really delved into the physics of them, and no one had a clue what the hell was going on it that class. But the rest of the courses you were fine if you just remembered their general behaviour in a circuit along with a few equations. I kind of feel like that's part of engineering, for better or worse: it's better to understand the practical effects and impacts rather than the mechanisms behind something (this is definitely a generalization though, there are plenty of engineers out there who know the nitty gritty details).

Unfortunately I haven't managed to find a proper electrical engineering job yet (stuck in systems engineering for now), but based on my internship I'd say that any deeper understanding you need to actually practice EE in industry is something you'll probably learn on the job.

Probably majoring in physics would give someone a much better understanding of how the stuff actually works even than majoring in EE to be honest, whereas an EE would actually know how to apply the stuff in the real world. My go-to-author, William Beaty, writes his articles and explanation from the perspective of a physicist, which may be why I understand that stuff better, and it may have been why he was once very confused, because he was taught from the perspective of an EE and his questions were not answered.

A physics major probably understand the actual workings of a transistor more than an EE. Whereas, an EE can read the data sheets and understand how to build real things with the transistors.

I've actually been asking questions on the forum at allaboutcircuits.com and I post in the physics section, because I realize that the majority of my questions really lead more to physics than anything.

 

[Flyfisherman]

For those of You that still don't believe in ESD: there are an EOS/ESD Association and standards:
https://www.esda.org/

Then it is more to this:
Two materials of two different kinds are an object to ESD.

Controlling electrostatic discharge begins with understanding how electrostatic charge occurs in the first place. Electrostatic charge is most commonly created by the contact and separation of two materials. The materials may be similar or dissimilar although dissimilar materials tend to liberate higher levels of static charge. For example, a person walking across the floor generates static electricity as shoe soles contact and then separate from the floor surface. An electronic device sliding into or out of a bag, magazine or tube generates an electrostatic charge as the device's housing and metal leads make multiple contacts and separations with the surface of the container. While the magnitude of electrostatic charge may be different in these examples, static electricity is indeed formed in each case.

Creating electrostatic charge by contact and separation of materials is known as "triboelectric charging."

When the two materials are placed in contact and then separated, negatively charged electrons are transferred from the surface of one material to the surface of the other material. Which material loses electrons and which gains electrons will depend on the nature of the two materials. The material that loses electrons becomes positively charged, while the material that gains electrons is negatively charged.

Static electricity is measured in coulombs. The charge “q” on an object is determined by the product of the capacitance of the object “C” and the voltage potential on the object (V):
q = CV
Commonly, however, we speak of the electrostatic potential on an object, which is expressed as voltage.

Virtually all materials, even conductors, can be triboelectrically charged.
The amount of charge is affected by material type, speed of contact and separation, humidity, and several other factors.
* Charged objects have electrostatic fields.
* Electrostatic discharge can damage devices so a parameter fails immediately, or ESD damage may be a latent defect that may escape immediate detection, but may cause the device to fail prematurely.
* Electrostatic discharge can occur throughout the manufacturing, test, shipping, handling, or operational processes, and during field service operations.
* ESD damage can occur as the result of a discharge to the device, from the device, or from charge transfers resulting from electrostatic fields. Devices vary significantly in their sensitivity or susceptibility to ESD.

Best regards from Sweden

Ps. How to Power a Light With Static Electricity
And Fluorescent Lights under High Voltage Power Lines!

 

[Ryugbt]

I'm not worried about damaging my PC. I unplugged it, plugged it back in, when it was partially back in. It sparked. My finger touched it. It shocked. It was my left hand pointer finger. If i did any damage TO MYSELF via shock. i'd know it right? It'd be a hell of a lot more than just a tad bit of pain in my finger, yeah?

 

[Flyfisherman]

I'm not worried about damaging my PC. I unplugged it, plugged it back in, when it was partially back in. It sparked. My finger touched it. It shocked. It was my left hand pointer finger. If i did any damage TO MYSELF via shock. i'd know it right? It'd be a hell of a lot more than just a tad bit of pain in my finger, yeah?

Hi, This is related to Your thread here http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/id-3123389/spark-hurt.html
where several answers are posted.

Best regards from Sweden