How to Revote the Patriot Act (Warrantless Wire Tapping aka Prism)and restore the appearance of freedom to the united states

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gunslingor

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May 27, 2013
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People of the interwebs, hear me now... Most of us have known about these programs for decades, even before the patriot act most of us knew the government did some sort of spying on its citizens. But we enter a new era, the data storage capabilities have outstripped our ability to analyze... but not for much longer. The danger isn't necessarily what they are doing with the data now while the program is still in its infancy, its what they'll do with it in the future.

The danger is real and the possibility for abuses are infinite. This data will never go away... so if you searched "Israel" and the Nazi's ever take over the US, they'll easily be able to track you down with this data warehouse and, likely, even non-Jews who just happen to search the term will be persecuted. I can't predict all hypothetical ways this data can be used and misused in the next 100 years, I just know based on the size and scope of the program, it'll never go away and I wouldn't trust my own mother with this data. Because there are an infinite number of ways this data can be abused and/or misinterpreted and there are a very finite number of ways in which it can be used ethically, I recommend, for the first time in my life, that you minimize your footprint on the web. Political persecution has probably already happened as a result of this domestic spying program, undoubtedly people have been wrongfully accused and potentially even thrown in some hole somewhere... its inevitable statistically speaking, with the scope of the program, without due process and the vast amounts of data they are working thru, and there claim that its saving lives (meaning they are taking real world actions on the algorithms)... its unquestionable in my mind, the internet is more dangerous now than its ever been and its not the hackers and scam artists I'm afraid of... Its Google, Twitter and the Government....

I don't blame Google, but that doesn't mean the danger isn't real. I feel they are an ally in this fight... That's why I call on all the people of the webs, in this moment of need... stop using Google, twitter and Facebook... if these company's see falling profits in the coming weeks, after most Americans are now aware they are being spied on, then these reductions in profit will be real world consequences of the spying program and Google and the others will have a solid case in court against the government... it will provide a path forward to preserve our freedoms... use duckduckgo.com or similar instead of Google, any site that doesn't store user data so that the government can't even ask for it... or foreign sites where the government has no jurisdiction... real time tracking by the government of the internet isn't feasible for now, thank god, but the vast amounts of data dumps are literally just a few baby steps away from this... its not real time, but it is likely by the day or week considering 30,000 data requests of 20,000 or more users on a yearly basis.

You should care about your rights... if they can make the argument that eliminating the right to privacy can save lives... they can do they same for the other rights without question right? I mean, the right not to self incriminate... can you imagine all bad people we could put away if that right didn't exist... or the right to jury by trial, OJ would be in prison right now if we didn't have that right... freedom of the press, we wouldn't even know about this program if it weren't for that, so this right negatively impacts security as well... at least in the governments eyes. Hell, even something as basic as the right to elect our leaders negatively impacts security... I mean, constantly throwing a new guy in the white house...

You can't let them make this argument or they'll be able to make the argument for years or centuries to come in a large variety of situations. I do feel this is an opportunity to change the future, all people have to do is stopping using Google and twitter for a little while...
 
We should elect you to some Government position.I see you are right and honest about this.

 
I do worry about my country, I worry that my people are subecting themselves to ignorance, to social engineering. We are the terrorists in the governments eyes...not those rag-head @$$-hats.

What happened on September the 11 was trajic. So was Pear Harbour, the Civil War, 1812, and the lives lost during our Revolution.

This is clice' but I think it wa ol' Benny Frank who said: "A nation that desires security over freedom deserves neither."

We cannot live in a perpetual state of fear. It is not only bad for our country but for our health. We are already the most unhealthy nation on earth. Add the stress to these 'terrorists', who are just mere murderers in my eyes. They take the souls of their fellow man and crush it. I respect the fact that we as a nation must defend ourselves against threaths of violence, but there is a limit to how much the government can help the people. As a liberal, I see the government as a helping hand in times of need. We the People are the helping hand to our fellow patriots and it is our duty to serve, protect, and enforce the Constitution and our God-given rights.

The USA PATRIOT Act is a boil on the face of liberty. It is a disease on our feedom. If we allow this contovery of an operative government that spies on itsw people, destroyes the lives of their fellow man, and end the lives of our greatest patriots...then the USA PATRIOT Act has failed to save us from the 'terrorists', for what is happeing is what they always wanted. It was the goal of Osama Bin Ladin to see that the US destroy itself internaly: Socially, Politically, and Economically. So far he and his men have been successful without the slightest bit of voilence on US soil. They are winning the war on terror.

Our forefathers died with blood on their faces, chest, and hands. They died knowing not what this nation would become and we are letting their souls live in vain. I cannot say we should allow them to harm us, but we must be resilient against these foregin murderers. They use their ideologies to justify their actions. They are cowards. I can tell you to rest assure that there is more courage and bravery in the heart of a child than these bastards.

We must not let them win. To effectively end the war on terror, we must ride the wave of voilence, of defeat, and of pursecution. Their souls will be striken with the upmost palgue no man or angle can imagine. Hell is where we live, but it will be their demise.

I say to them "Come at me bro!" I have nothing to lose but my life.

"Pain it temporary, Glory is eternal."

 
I concur. We are so willing to sacrifice our freedom out of fear for potential attacks, we are letting the fear, perpetually and intentionally propagated by the government via the media, dictate our actions. Decisions made solely on the basis of fear are rarely good decisions, especially when the other side of the debate is hushed with statements like "love it or leave it" or "he's the president, therefore you should support his decisions, he's our 'decider'". I knew this was coming, and this is the only type of debate I could have after 911... people refused to look at the facts. Few people look at the past when discussing these subjects, this recent story is even presented with the impression that these are new stories... there was a similar leak in 2006, and anyone with half a brain knew this was coming back when the act passed. Some people just don't care about the truth, opting for a view of reality based on desire instead of fact...

I'm personally more than willing to sacrifice my life to preserve our freedoms, we all must be, otherwise we don't deserve an army willing to do the same. Support our troops by not letting them die in vain, without purpose, without their own god given rights... not by supporting the unquestionable will of your leader.

Just to put the argument in context, average deaths per year for:
Car accidents: 40,000
Cancer: 564,800 (1/4 of which is likely caused by cigarettes, 2/4 of which is likely caused by pollution)
Terrorist attacks: averaged out over the last decade: less than 1,000 people globally, less than 100 people per year in the US.
Soldiers at war: roughly 1,000 people per year.

So, we seem more than willing to allow minimum 500,000 people to die of cancer yearly, all for the purposes of maintaining corporate profits for cigarettes and the antiquated fuel source of fermented million year old flesh (i.e. oil).

We seem more than willing to sacrifice thousands of troops every year, to protect a few hundred Americans... but apparently not their freedoms... why is this? Could it perhaps be because war is highly profitable while freedom is the opposite? I suspect this holds a grain of truth.

Its simple, all we have to do to preserve our freedoms is stand and fight together... all we need to lose our freedoms is fear... that's all it takes and the American people have been led down this path, intentionally...
 


Well, I'm a liberal and here I am, making a peep. In regards to the media, it's highly control by the AP, which in turn is highly controlled by the government, which in turn is highly controlled by the corporations of America. From a corporate standpoint, most laws negatively impact profits and as a general tendency, republics want more rights for corporations than people, and this is why your not hearing much in the media.

Forgetting about your political argument for a second, where do you stand on the issue?
 
I think Gunslingor summed it up perfectly.

My only comment is, why is anyone surprised? Popsci did an article on the NSA supercomputer a few years ago, it is common knowledge Verizon has a "Black" room where all data is routed before it hits the company. There are multiple documentaries about how nothing digital should be considered private or personal.

I thought for sure everyone knew that you had no privacy... Thankfully VT's senator (Sanders, Independent) is an outspoken critic of NSA spying, so at least some elected officials are on the right page.

Unfortunately the other state I spend my time in isnt so great... Both Ayotte and Shaheen (republicans) on NH have either said nothing or sh*t like this:

"This was a lawful program," approved and reviewed by the court system, that "has stopped terrorist attacks in the past," said House Homeland Security Chairman Michael McCaul, R-Texas, on "Face the Nation."

He was seconded by Sen. Kelly Ayotte, R-N.H. who also noted that intelligence officials have credited the program with the prevention of terrorist attacks in the past and said that "we have a responsibility to protect people's constitutional rights, but let's not forget that we're still at war with terrorists."
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Well, these laws were designed to help combat our sworn enemies.
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Some think that, others realize that whatever the purpose may have been in the beginning (whether it truly was for protection or for something more sinister) that the purpose will change as time moves on...the system itself and the purpose of the system will change with time... its similar to Pandora's box, you open it your gonna be boned at some point. It took thousands of years to form a society like America, and once its gone it'll be another thousand years. This is preciously why we have a constitution... because laws do need to change, because the world changes as do governments, technology and everything else in the universe... but these fundamental rights are rights that are self evident, that we are born with, that no man has the right to take away from another (unless of course they violate the rights of others and get thrown in jail). Our "sworn enemies" are our enemies for a reason, we aren't a muslin governement that inherently restricts freedom, this is why the extreme muslims find us so evil.... so what the hell is your plan? Abolish all American rights so they won't have a reason to attack us anymore? That's smart thinking! Very noble! Way to plan for the future!

All well and good, but now our very own government deems those to be enemies on a whim, usually politically motivated.
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What did you think would happen after the patriot act? Did you think every president from now until eternity would be a highly ethical individual who would only use it for good? Give me a break, these idiots are so short sited.

See the recent IRS scandals which doesn't even address the local persecution of Tea Party and patriot groups.
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If you know anything about 501C4s, you'll know these are again unconstitutional constructs used to inject corporate greed into the political systems. I don't defend the IRS, but I also don't judge prior to seeing the evidence.

I believe is less government as better. That's where I stand.
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Traditionally I'd know what you meant when you said that, but these days its highly subjective... I mean, most republicans claim to believe in less government, but what they really mean is less government for business and more government for citizens... Democrats these days, for the most part, believe the opposite.

Republicans try for, on the behalf of corporations: Deregulation of industry, dismantling the EPA, More money for the military even though we spend 10 times more than ALL countries combined, minimizing gun control (largely for the gun Mfrs who are just as influential as the military contractors, though this can be considered to overlap with the below), not setting up laws forcing food producers to mark their products as genetically modified and/or irradiated... hell, thanks to republicans McDonalds is now considered a person.

Republicans try for, on the behalf of citizens: Making gay marriage illegal, making abortion illegal, Warrentless wiretapping (thanks bush), no healthcare unless you can afford it yourself (increasing the profits of health care companies), no social security (i.e. more profits for Wallstreet brokers).

In my eyes, Republicans of the last 2 decades, at least, have been focusing on restricting American rights and opening corporate rights. The democrats are the opposite. Usually this would be conducive to a perfect compromise but thanks to the reworked filibuster rules of the 90's, they can't get anything done.


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The patriot act is an abomination, especially how it has evolved to spy American citizens for their political views not the real enemy that's wants to see us all dead simply because we exist and like freedom.
This is what is was intended for, you cannot doubt that the potential was always there. Thanks Republicans! Either incredibly stupid and short sited, or blatantly corrupt and controlling.

I may not be referring to you when I discuss the resident libs here. There are some here that defend anything this administration or government does. Those are who I was referring to. The shills.
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In 100% all honesty, I think your wrong... Obama is criticized constantly, by people like me, by the liberal media MSNBC, by everyone... Watch the Daily show, any night of the week. Democrats hold him to an extremely high standard, republicans would criticize him if he single handedly prevented and alien invasion. In contrast, the republicans always had this attitude of "love it or leave" and "I'm the decider" and "you should support his decision because he's our leader".

I remember, just a few years back when Obama was elected for the first time... I was sitting in restaurant bar watching the result come in, another guy was sitting next to me that was a republican and we talked a good bit... finally, the electron results came in and Obama won. My comment to the fellow was something along the lines "Boy I'm glad he one, I just hope he isn't a wolf in sheep's clothing". His response was something like "well, you elected him therefore you have to support him"... my response was "are you insane? People have to watch our leaders regardless of who elected them... we aren't electing a god dam Pharaoh here".

You have to understand how hard the bush years were for a guy like me... every one of these issue, I saw coming, and I tried to debate it constantly with republicans only to be hushed up with the previously stated statements like "love it or leave it", not a typical montra of the democrats or liberals obviously. Iraq, not having weapons of mass distruction... I called it. The governments use of torture at Abu Ghraib... I called it... (by the way, those poor soldiers hushed to silence for there country are still being blamed for this, even though the tactics used there precisely match those used at Gaun-ton... support our troops, funny indeed). Warrantless wiretapping, I obviously called that one. To name a very very few.

I would ask you, what's your opinion of Heriberto Gonzalez? Effectively doing the same thing the IRS did? Most republicans defended him at the time, whole heartedly they defended him... Anyone crying for blood in this IRS case need only be called a hypocrite if they approve of Gonzalez's actions.

I'm not for the democrats, I view them on par ethically with the republicans, perhaps slightly better if it weren't for their acceptance of Republican control, regardless of the ruling party. I only support those with an inherent desire to do good, secondly for our country, but for mankind in general first and foremost... Anyone else in office has there priorities out of wack and can't be trusted... our troops are willing to give their lives for the US, and in support of other countries, so should our leaders or they don't deserve to be leaders.
 
I can assure you all the checks and balances associated with the program were in fact only on paper. How it functioned was completely different than what was on paper. I can also assure you the reason they are contractors is to blame this kind of event on non-government employees, but on private companies that contract with the government. In the end when they stand before Congress they can say "here's the paper saying what it was supposed to do" and "here's the private company that didn't do what we requested."

In the end, the government is setup to not take any fault for the mishappenings or blame.

My favorite argument used is, "The computer systems are 100% working all the time with 100% up time. All systems are functioning 100% correctly."
 
Riser, VERY good point!

Anyway... Sorry for my rants as well, obviously we all feel passionately aboutt our world views. We all agree on one thing, that this survalence sucks, and we should focus on that so perhaps we can be productive instead of arguementative. back to the point, I hereby commit not to use google search for 3 months minimum... Not to mess with Facebook.. And to minimize my footprint on the Internet. If we all do it, we can change this... But do we care enough, or does it have to get REALLY bad before us citizens do our jobs and keep our leaders in check.
 
How many here would stand in line for an implant that tells the government where we visit, what we read, who we talk to, and maybe even listen in on conversations or record video?

Now consider smart phones. The citizenry actually buys them with their own money, and pays the subscription fees and taxes. They voluntarily emit their feelings, thoughts, messages, favorites, videos, images, and location. Software developers are constantly making new social media applications, providing more metadata. Even banks have smart phone apps. Phones have built in batteries, so they can be activated remotely without your knowledge and track your presence, listen in, and maybe even video. People have their images to maintain, so upgrades keep the devices out there on the cutting edge, and old ones are culled as they break after a few years.

It is genius. Our government has found a way to monitor people by taking advantage of our attraction to flashy and sleek technology, and to avoid becoming a victim of peer pressure.
 
You can use things like Silent Circle to encrypt your phone calls and stuff on your cell. The other side needs to use it as well, but that doesn't stop them from unencrypting it. It just makes it more time consuming for them to do that.

If it is metadata, they simply search for a phone number and all records are produced in that manner. That doesn't stop them from looking else where.. just like you've seen in politics where people in certain positions use it to dig into political opponents.
 
Why dont we just get this over with, and get those chips put in our hand or forehead?
It would solve everything, what we buy, where we go.....

Weve lost freedoms here, people are defending this, leaders are saying its not that bad, nothing more to see, the leakers are our enemies, and the leakers are the liars, or have pled the fifth and still theres nothing more to find out after doing so according to some.
Time to get rid of alot of phony power grabbers in our government, and I really dont care if theyve tried to scratch my back or not, they have to go, if both the libs and cons can agree here, we get our country back sooner rather than later
 
The Snowden guy is a big out there and a little crazy. I do think he's exaggerating some of his claims to make his case and all. Though, I do think there should be more open dialog about what's going on for US citizens, not necessarily what's happening to non-Citizens.
 
This isnt just a little problem we are going to have domestically tho
http://arabia.msn.com/news/world/1915080/pressure-merkel-talk-prism-with-obama/
All the rhetoric the BO admin states about how to go softer on whos causing terrorism, and how to react to others world wide who disagree with us goes counter to his hypocritical ways, seen doubly by not only using this, as he opposed it and supposedly was appalled by Bush's use of it, has expanded it, is now outed, and our neighbors around the planet arent too happy about our wisened "leader" here either.

So, I didnt only mention Snowden, I also was refering to the IRS scandal where some say theres nothing more to learn, where some have pled the fifth under oath.
If it isnt covered up, try to, if it gets exposed, go after those who expose it, water it down, again, dont let questions be asked, and move on, and what Im saying is, its the same people wanting this, the same "leaders", the ones who think nanny, be they repubs or dems, they know better for you and I , all we have to do is trust them, after we find out about their indiscretions ?
Like a cheating lover, theyll want to talk after being found out, but they want it to end before you find out too much
 
I see everyone talking about the government when that is only half the equation. What about the corporations that collect and even sell data on us? Facebook, google, etc...

I'm not sure you could ever make the internet truly free from the government and corporations, the only thing I think that would be plausible would be to do what Riser said, make it as hard as possible to access your data. Proxy's and encryptions should become the new norm for the average user.
 

Or just take the "hit" and go with a dumb phone with removable battery, pay your checks by mail, use cash, and limit your web surfing. I for one am interested in lowering the amount of metadata I create, and if it costs me a little more time and money, I'm ok with that.
 


Proxies and certs are just an extra hurdle to get over for the gov't. Encryption on the other hand requires more details. They're working on breaking AES-256, once that happens it'll be a matter of months before all data going back to 2005/2006 is decoded and available.

As far as companies, they're being forced by the gov't to give that information over. The document was released that was sent to MCI (Verizon) stating that it was now a legal requirement that MCI hand over that information.

The major difference between the government having that data and a corporation is that the government has the infrastructure setup to search that information. Corporations do not have groups strictly there to search the data. Intent of use is the concern.

For reference to the document that ordered MCI to turn over it's records to the gov't, you can read it here at this excellent site which I highly recommend to anyone:
http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

Michael Yon is one of the top correspondants in Afghanistan and Iraq. His work changed how the wars were fought and openly criticized and praised the efforts. On top of that he also reports other things. He isn't anti-government. He is about bringing to light things that we in America are surprised to find out about, but everyone else already knew.

For example, in the wars, the enemy would use cell phone cameras to detect US troops. Or that we continue to have military branches refusing to remove the red cross and arm helicopters for wounded evacs because top generals don't want to give up control of their stuff to the greater good.

He has spent more time embedded than any other multiple reporters combined and his insight is impeccable.
 


*sigh* Im only responding because this time you called me out by name. No one should be threatened with any kind of harm to their college or career prospects because of what they ay at their graduation. The role of a school should be to teach a student how to think not what to think.I doubt whether religion had anything to do with it considering the school started and ended the ceremony with a Christian prayer.

But again Oldman you sure have done your part to call out Johnson and me in another thread for something a principal almost did in Texas. Therefore exposing the liberal agenda to not let kids talk about Jesus and the constitution (Which we are all in on).

I thought we had him there Johnson but Oldmangamer is too smart for us. Oh well lets go convince some kids that drugs are fun and socialism is groovy.
 


duty_calls.png


Gotta love XKCD.

@Oldman Chill out its the news and leisure forum.
 
WTF are you talking about riser? How have I ever been Ok with "Those Things" I know we have a difference of belief in a lot of areas but this is getting to be a bit too much. I post a lot on reddit (Not under wanamingo) and a few other news and politics site, this place used to be a bit more relaxed... you know with humor and such, but I find myself not having so much fun anymore.



I dont think that guy should be allowed to use the NSA gathered info as evidence in his case because it would set a precedent that the NSA is legally obtaining that data. All info should be thrown out stop being gathered, not used in court.
 
Anyone can say that they condemn something, it doesn't matter if you do or don't. Usually I say something like that principal was an idiot, so i'm not sure how you get the impression that i'm alright with these things.

BTW OMG, when was the last time we have targeted you individually? We weren't even posting in this thread and you still had to take shots at us. When was the last time I specifically said you were "this" or "that"?
 


Obviously, if we don't agree with them on certain political issues then we don't agree with them on anything.
 
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