how would you replace the keyboard for PC gaming?

[jason41987]

lets face it, the keyboard probably the worst control interface made for anything besides typing.. ive heard some pretty interesting ideas people have had to attempt to make it better by attempting to add some kind of analog control to the WASD keys so youd have more than just standing still, or running full speed as your options for movement.. so its a poor interface for gaming.. how would you replace it?

i looked at some gaming keypads that have a thumbstick on them... digital though, really doesnt improve on the movement capability at all.. if one had an analog control stick, i might consider that route. but for me, using a keyboard for too long actually begins to hurt.. i have large hands, as well as damage done to them in the past, so trying to cramp them onto any keypad for more than an hour is just not going to work

anyway, since gaming developers would rather just be lazy and map every tiny little function to a different key instead of using things like menus, contexts, double taps, or anything relating to the time you press a button (for example, in battlefield three you press a button to crouch, but hold that button for anything longer than a tap and you lay down.. two functions, one button) and in some games you cant just press that button again to stand up but you need a different one, its actually quite inefficient, so due to this youd need to put those buttons somewhere else than on a keypad... on the mouse?.. there are some 12+ button mice on the market.. but how would you replace the keyboard?

one idea i had was to get a playstation move NAVIGATION controller which basically is like a wii nunchuch with an analog stick, held in one hand, but differs in also offering a d-pad, analog trigger, and everything else youd find in your left hand if you cut a PS3 controller in half...

so my idea.. this navigation controller in the left hand, 12-20 button gaming mouse in the right.. any other ideas?

 

[cats_Paw]

Something like this?
http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-controllers/razer-hydra/
Ofc youd only be using half of the controller.

Personally I stick with keybaord (2 in fact, red mechanical switches for FPS/Racing, Black mechanical switches for RTS).

I dont think you "can" find anything as good as a keybaord for gaming, but you could find something a bit more comftable.

Still.... If the developers didnt make a good profile for the device, you are facing the same problem as before.

 

[jason41987]

cats, thats why i think having one of those controllers like that thing you posted in your off-hand.. and a 20-button mouse in your right hand for all those keys due to bad control schemes would be a perfect way to replace the keyboard

 

[cats_Paw]

Im just not sure its possible: The brain ahs 2 sides (hemospheres i think its called in english). One of them controls the movement the other the analitical part. If you have a mice and a joystick (one in each hand), you reaction time is significantly reduced from a keyboard/mice combo (well... significantly means from something like a 15 ms reaction time in a gamer a 35 ms, more regular human reaction time).

Its possible to teach your brain to operate two joysticks at the same time, and while the learning process is very healthy for the brain itself, the gaming expirience is capped sooner than with a keyboard/mouse combo.

Ofc if you are not a competitive player, you might not care about this much (most singleplayer games wont need a high speed and multitasking anyway), but in multiplayer i think you will want that edge.

 

[jason41987]

what are you talking about?.. difficult to operate two joysticks at the same time? every playstation, nintendo, and xbox owner has been doing it for years without a second thought and its significantly quicker to move by flicking your finger in whichever direction you want to go than moving your fingers around a keyboard, a thumbustick is SUPERIOR for movement than a keyboard.. this is why having a controller like device for that hand would be better than a keyboard, and apply those extra buttons lost to the mouse side

 

[cats_Paw]

Im talking about the capability that the keyboard gives of using 5 fingers. A pad usually requires a minimum of 3 fingers to hold in your hand, limiting your options.

The joystick might be supirior to the keyboard when it comes to character movment or racing games, but if there are more keys to be used, it can get a delay.

Extra buttons on the mice have their limitations. If you are presing a key at one side, your accuracy with the mice itself suffers.

But if you like more the joysticks, i guess it dosent really matter.

 

[jason41987]

you need 3, sometimes four of those fingers for movement alone. WASD, one finger typically switches between W and S, so if you have to suddenly move backwards there will be more of a delay than twitching your thumb.. and if you need to put your pinky on the shift for running, thats just more fingers just for moving alone when the thumb can do all of that, and still have an index and middle finger available for buttons.. face it, the keyboard is archaic and inefficient, and the mouse would be much better off without the keyboard tagging along

 

[ssddx]

the keyboard is here to stay.

quite frankly there is no better input device.

the only thing that can be done to better it for gaming would be to redesign the shape such as is done on gamepads like the nostromo. even then though it limits your options somewhat compared to a normal keyboard.

 

[jason41987]

the only the reason the keyboard has stayed around gaming for so long is because developers map their functions to many different keys because theyre not making a lot of games for a better input device that doesnt need so many keys.. reason why they dont is because they make games for an input device everyone has and to make it for something else would take just a little more work

ill give an example, arma 3 doesnt even have the ability coded into the game to move into more than 8 directions.. they pride themselves on being able to do all of this unnecessary crap like salute, sit down, lower weapon, things useless to actual gameplay to take up more of those keys.. but if youre running and want to veer a little to the left to get around an object, you cant.. no matter how modern this game is you can still only move in one of 8 directions because of the shortcomings of the keyboard

this is what needs to be addressed, how am i to take a game seriously that even boasts being so cutting edge it offers oculus rift support, but only if you intend to use a glorified electric typewriter to move your character?.. were not playing doom and wolfenstein 3D anymore.. and this doesnt mean you have to get rid of the mouse.. just the keyboard aspect of it for the majority of gameplay

 

[ssddx]

the only the reason the keyboard has stayed around gaming for so long is because developers map their functions to many different keys because theyre not making a lot of games for a better input device that doesnt need so many keys.. reason why they dont is because they make games for an input device everyone has and to make it for something else would take just a little more work

and what device would you suggest? we already have gamepads, joysticks, controllers, gaming keyboards like the zboard and a few more styles of input devices.

most games are compatible with controllers though you might have to map keys to them like you would bind commands to a keyboard.

ill give an example, arma 3 doesnt even have the ability coded into the game to move into more than 8 directions.. they pride themselves on being able to do all of this unnecessary crap like salute, sit down, lower weapon, things useless to actual gameplay to take up more of those keys.. but if youre running and want to veer a little to the left to get around an object, you cant.. no matter how modern this game is you can still only move in one of 8 directions because of the shortcomings of the keyboard

because of the limitations of the keyboard?

i call total bull#@%#

we have had strafe for years as well as dash, slide, wall jump and other commands. such limitations are because of poor game coding not an issue with the keyboard.

i will agree that some commands such as peeking out from behind a wall are naturally easier to do on a controller such as those found on consoles but the mouse is a much more precise aiming tool which counters that advantage. keep in mind using a game pad nullifies that advantage and makes the gamepad and mouse a clear winner.

this is what needs to be addressed, how am i to take a game seriously that even boasts being so cutting edge it offers oculus rift support, but only if you intend to use a glorified electric typewriter to move your character?.. were not playing doom and wolfenstein 3D anymore.. and this doesnt mean you have to get rid of the mouse.. just the keyboard aspect of it for the majority of gameplay

again... what would you replace it with?

we already have many options available to us besides a standard layout keyboard.

 

[TheGhxst]

Ok let me first say that ARMA is a Military SIMULATION, so naturally it's going to be more detailed with everything you mentioned. Keyboards give everything a player needs unless you want to have 5 keys that sit on a glove you wear, and to jump you have to tap your thumb and pinky together 3 times to bypass the other two functions. That just seems silly doesn't it?

 

[jason41987]

ssddx.. my suggestion was the left side of a controller in one hand and a mouse in the right.. preferably one with enough buttons to make up for a loss of keys by eliminating the keyboard.. like a 12-button

 

[ssddx]

i tried it before and it is not quite as good as you think it might be.

razer nostromo (20 buttons)

logitech g600 (17 buttons)

for starters the thumb pad is absolutely no replacement for wasd or arrow keys and using keys on the gamepad for movement is kind of besides the point. the thumbstick does work rather well for rpg games but it needs to be a true omnidirectional analog stick and not just 4 way/8way. on a keyboard the arrow keys are also set apart from all other keys making it easy to find them without looking if you need to. ctrl+shift+enter are also in convenient locations for crouch, jump and use. the numpad is set up in a great location for quick skills or weapon swaps.

there are quite a few buttons to press but some are quite hard to reach. the even bigger gamepads from logitech are even worse off. i suppose you could get used to it with time though and the buttons were mechanical so it was rather nice.

you cannot type on it. you need to remove your hands from the gamepad and move them to the keyboard to perform this function. fine if you use voice chat though.

as far as the mouse is concerned those buttons are extremely hard to push with accuracy when actually playing. believe me i did try (since i needed lots of keys to map functions in tera online) and it failed miserably. honestly any more than 4-5 extra buttons on a mouse makes it too hard to use reliably. i prefer my 5 button (extra 2 buttons) razer deathadder over any of them.

i returned both the gamepad and the special mouse. they were not worth the cost and were not very practical.

ultimately i ended up using a ps3 controller in windows to play tera online. it worked much better than a keyboard and mouse for the game which was action rpg-ish. for shooting games there is no substitute for a mouse and while a gamepad may work for some a keyboard is also a very valid solution.

honestly i believe there should be a few improvments to current technology but other than that perepherals are not bad off. what we need is...

-true omnidirectional analog stick support.
-slightly redesigned key layouts on gamepads or a gamepad layout integrated onto a keyboard where the numpad should be... hey now i'm going to patent that idea! i think it would sell!
-use of buckling springs as an option for mechanical gamepads instead of just cherry switches.

 

[jason41987]

so then you do understand my point about keyboard being so inefficient, and bringing down a good mouse.. sure you can shoot better with the mouse, but in a FPS if you need to run and take cover youre running away in one of three predictable directions (since running sideways or towards the target isnt running away)

i thought about trying those gamepads but learned they were all digital movement and that many had onboard electronics the keys had to go through before being read by the PC creating a delay.. as of now i map everything through a PS3 controller.. and yes, even arma 3.. as for action rpgs and such where you use the keypad to select different things.. i mean its really not a requirement, i now mouse + keyboard elitists will claim you need the buttons, i could easily say the developers could merely come up with something a bit more intuitive, and i believe i gave the example that arma doesnt need 3 different buttons to stand, crouch, and go prone, so poor interface design is what seems to keep PC games do dependant on a keyboard

but id use something like that nostromo IF the stick was analog and the buttons were laid out in a better pattern.. using a keyboard for wasd really, really kills my hand after about 20 minutes due to having large hands

but.. if you figure im able to map even arma to a ps3 controller, if i want to keep a similar mapping and use a mouse.. id only need to make up for the number of buttons lost on the right side of the controller, which is a total of 8.. when you include either direction of the scroll wheel can be mapped.. a 6-button mouse should do it.. i dont have any issues keeping a keyboard around for text entry, or hot selects, or functions that are much less important.. but for general gameplay i think i need to find a solution and i think a quality 6-8 button mouse should do it

 

[ssddx]

the keyboard is not inefficient, it is just not the perfect layout for games. essentially a gamepad is just a redesigned keyboard.

i've used a gamepad and could note no such lag. the reason you dont see more commands mapped to one key is because of the time delay required to activate them in this manner which most people do not like.

honestly the nostromo is about the best that you are going to get in terms of a pattern. what it needs is a bit more adjustability and then it would be good. that and a better analog stick. i prefer analog sticks for rpgs but arrow keys for fps.

you can map any fps game or rpg to a controller with varying degrees of sucess. the motioninjoy supports mapping ps buttons to key commands so essentially its just emulating a keyboard. the biggest issue is if the game supports analog stick input or not. if not you are limited to 8 way movement.

using half a controller is going to be a bad idea. it will be too hard to hold in your hand so you will lose out on just buttons. honestly its more of an all or nothing approach. use a controller or dont.

it sounds to me like you might benefit from a nostromo, orbweaver or the logitech variant of it. you can then use the analog stick for movement instead of arrow keys. and since you dont require a great number of keys... you should have no problem with mapping to the first row and thumb buttons.

technically yes you can map commands to the scroll up and scroll down however you completely lose out on zoom and weapon switch commands or did you forget this? you could use mouse wheel tilt left/right or mouse wheen press down however they are annoying to do in game so are best ignored. you could go with a multi button mouse however again they are a pain to actually use in practice. you stated that you do not need many input buttons so again pairing with a nostromo and something like a deathadder is going to be fine.

there is nothing wrong with keyboards so i think you need to stop talking about inefficiency, and how bad they are for gaming. if you dont like wasd or arrow key gaming on a keyboard then good for you.. use a gamepad, controller or zboard. this is why such products exist so try them out instead of complaining about the keyboard being bad.

 

[jason41987]

hows this idea for a new gaming invention.. a wii nunchuck type device for your left hand including a clickable thumbstick, a triggre, an extra shoulder button, and a d-pad with one other button.. perhaps clickable d-pad.. the other device is a mouse.. high DPI, pressure sensitive right and left click, five side buttons plus the middle button... and then map these two devices together to one 2.4ghz or bluetooth transceiver and make it x-input compatible, so xbox 360 control schemes can be created for more games and this would allow a mouse to be used with those games

 

[ssddx]

your arms are already on the desk... one would think having such a controller in your left hand might be...strange. when using a gamepad at least your hand has something to rest on.

the problem is that computer games do not like to accept the same type of inputs as consoles do, hence the problem with a real analog stick. its more of a game limitation not a controller limitation.

 

[Privatemanos]

Simply Keyboard + Mouse is for FPS,RTS,RPG,Moba games.The Controler will NEVER work for these games because you need precision/accuracy and anyone else says otherwise is fooling himself.While the Controler is the best for sport,racing,fighiting,adventure games.
Now IF you want to hear a litle story of me continew reading.

For fun one day i tried to play Cod at PS3 and it ended up as a desaster. I had a score of 5kills-15 deaths or something.On the other side at the PC i was just roflstomping/steamrolling nearly every game with scores like 27-0 or 40-4, in fact i was 35th Worldwide @ TDM the first 4-5months at CoD:MW3 so i said something is going very wrong.Then a friend told me to try an adapter for the PS3 that lets you use a mouse and a keyboard and i did it.
The adapter was somewhat laggy but even like that i steamrolled/ roflstomped lobbies so hard that people started calling me a cheater 😛

Proofs==> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmX0wa9dCi0 Mw3 Hardhut TDM *27-0*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKNKiPiBbW8 Mw3 Resistance TDM *40-4*
I cant find the picture showing my world rank right now but if someone realy wants it i can look again.

P.S. Im sorry if my english isnt that good, BLAME my teacher!

 

[ssddx]

i completely agree with you there manos.

for shooter games a mouse and keyboard will completely stomp controllers. its a proven fact. even the best controller player will be beaten by mid level mouse and keyboard players.

 

[jason41987]

manos, the reason you suck on PS3 is because youre not used to a controller, you havent spent time with it, learned it, developed the skills for precision or the muscle memory.. noticed you were -15, the others werent, thats because they have developed those skills, and i know people with their sensitivity so high they can turn around in a blink of an eye and shoot you.. so because YOU cant manage a FPS with a controller, doesnt mean its the controller

 

[jason41987]

manos, the reason you suck on PS3 is because youre not used to a controller, you havent spent time with it, learned it, developed the skills for precision or the muscle memory.. noticed you were -15, the others werent, thats because they have developed those skills, and i know people with their sensitivity so high they can turn around in a blink of an eye and shoot you.. so because YOU cant manage a FPS with a controller, doesnt mean its the controller

 

[ssddx]

@jason

i've been using playstation type controllers since 1995 with the release of the ps1. i've used the ps1, ps2, ps3, psmove, xbox, nostromo and countless other controllers/gamepads with analog sticks. that is 18 years of gaming experience with analog sticks and gamepads... and i have noted the same exact issue as manos. if you dare try to say that i just dont have practice with the controller i will call bull**** and say you are a liar so dont even go there.

granted some people are better than others with controllers but there is only so much precision you can get out of a controller. also keep in mind that console games also have "auto aim" or some other built in code to help you aim. believe me i've tried to play fps on consoles and controllers suck horribly compared to a mouse and keyboard. the only good thing about controllers is that you can lean back in a chair and play casually.

keep in mind that if manos discovered that he can use a keyboard and mouse with the ps3 that others have as well. to stay competetive i'm sure many of the people he was fighting were also using keyboards and mice. you can not chalk it up to him just not knowing how to use it without proof. in any case even if he was not as competent with a controller he knows the game well obviously so would not be as hindered.

why dont you try playing the same game on the pc with a controller and then a mouse and keyboard and compare for yourself? i've done it and the results are quite staggering even on two devices which i know how to use perfectly.

 

[jason41987]

really? ive been playing the battlefield 4 beta for the last couple days WITH a controller and ive done as well as i do when up against people on console... closer to the top of the list.. even had a couple instances where the opponent had started shooting at me first, missing, and then me killing that person with my controller.. so yeah, ill say that mouse/keyboard elitism crap is just that

 

[ssddx]

basically what you just stated was that you suck with a m+k and are good with a controller. basically the opposite that you accused manos of. how ironic yes?

i am not going to argue that there arent good console players. there are even some who know the game so well that they bridge the gap. my point is that if you take a "good" console player and pit them against a "good" pc player at around the same skill level the console player will typically do worse.

there can be many reasons for this..

-a pc kb+m player can make different types of movements than a console player is limited to.
-a pc kb+m player has a faster turning rate
-a pc kb+m player has an easier time with aiming

inversely there are some things a controller is better at. i'm not silly enough to not to note that.

in any case....arent you acting pretty elitist yourself? pot calling the kettle black for sure.

 

[jason41987]

mouse doesnt have an easier time with learning, it has a shorter learning curve, huge difference there, as for faster turning rate, i know people on console who play with the sensitivity so high they can do a 180 quicker than i can blink, and still be precise.. and what movements can you do on Pc that you dont do on a controller?.. sure, take a game like arma and you have a key to walk slow, you have combat pace, regular speed, and sprint.. but see, all of these are mapped to a single joystick and allow greater level of control than you will ever accomplish with a keyboard..

see.. this is why the keyboard damages any benefit anyone may have with a mouse.. if someone is moving, i can much easier predict which direction theyll go, and how fast theyll be moving.. much more difficult to lead a shot on a player with a controller as he's not restricted to 8 directions of movement, or 2-3 speeds.. anyone who denies that the keyboard is an inefficient interface that hinders more than helps is being completely disingenuous..

you can sit here and tell me all night that a keyboard isnt incredibly limiting in how you can move but i know its not true, and you know its not true.. what i dont understand is why not admit it?.. if you were to admit it, then youd have to face the fact that your PC gaming interface really isnt the best it can be and as stated theres really not much you can do about it as no one makes a better interface

no one makes a better interface because all the games we play now are designed to use a keyboard.. and they design them to use a keyboard because everyone has a keyboard for gaming (well most people) and the reason they use a keyboard for gaming is because this is what games are made for... its a loop that ive noticed PC gaming has been stuck in for literally decades. and im saying we need a change.. i think its time to toss aside the keyboard and come up with a new idea and thats what i was trying to discuss