how would you replace the keyboard for PC gaming?

[jason41987]

here.. look at this photo.. this is what i had in mind.. takes the best of the controller and the best of the PC world and combines them into one xinput compatible device

http://xbox360.nextgame.net/upload/iblock/285/Scourch-Mouse-For-Xbox-360_detail.jpg

apparently with the motioninjoy driver for PS3 controllers.. the playstation 3 navigation controller is supported.. which is this device here

http://www.amazon.com/Playstation-Move-Navigation-Controller-3/dp/B002I0K6X6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380985195&sr=8-1&keywords=playstation+navigation

ive purchased one of these as they were quite cheap.. and offered in total 9 different buttons (four d-pad, the x and o, L1, L2, and L3 and the playstation button).. plus my 5-button mouse gives me 7 more mappable functions for a total of 17 total (same number as a standard PS3 controller when you count the PS button)... so if i had like a 12 button mouse.. that would give me many, many more keys that i can map with a set switch button, youre looking at 30+ different buttons you could have mapped.. not aware of a PC game that requires that many.. so i think thatll be a suitable, and better replacement to the keyboard

 

[ssddx]

mouse doesnt have an easier time with learning, it has a shorter learning curve, huge difference there, as for faster turning rate, i know people on console who play with the sensitivity so high they can do a 180 quicker than i can blink, and still be precise.. and what movements can you do on Pc that you dont do on a controller?.. sure, take a game like arma and you have a key to walk slow, you have combat pace, regular speed, and sprint.. but see, all of these are mapped to a single joystick and allow greater level of control than you will ever accomplish with a keyboard..

perhaps you completely missed the part where i said some actions are definitely better for console. the variable pressure L2/R2 are a good example as they allow a variable to be used with a single button. honestly there are no mouse and keyboard equivalents to this.

even on maximum speed a controller turn rate is still slower than a mouse with high dpi on high speed. of course it can be hard to control such a high speed.. i'm just saying that its there and some people can use it.

in some games (lets say ut2004, ut3 for example since i actually play them) there are doubletap direction button quick dodge left, right, back, front as well as wall jumping. the console equivalent is not so easy to do while on a keyboard doubletapping is easy. of course you could map keys to the d-pad but this is still not as nice as a keyboard. also you can change in direction faster than you can on console since your fingers are already above the keys while with an analog stick you need to reverse the direction with your thumb. not a big difference i know but its there.

see.. this is why the keyboard damages any benefit anyone may have with a mouse.. if someone is moving, i can much easier predict which direction theyll go, and how fast theyll be moving.. much more difficult to lead a shot on a player with a controller as he's not restricted to 8 directions of movement, or 2-3 speeds.. anyone who denies that the keyboard is an inefficient interface that hinders more than helps is being completely disingenuous..

i dont see a point. i could say the same thing about a controller but you conveniently ignore that.

it is easy to tell the direction of someone using a controller as well. most people walk in straight lines. personally i never walk in a straight line and its always full of strafes, angled movement, ducks, jumps and changes in elevation. years of playing unreal tournament and other fps has made my movements twitchy and rather hard to follow for people who arent used to it. people who have played exessive pc fps games also develop a twitch response.

an example of this would be two characters running almost in parallel lines but in opposite directions while jumping and dodging. when i played alot i could aim a slow moving arced projectile weapon and hit the exact spot the player would be at about 80%+ of the time. also just seeing movement on the screen would result in a quick shot to that exact location without thought. a mouse makes twitch response very accurate. there is of course a variant for console and controllers but i dont feel that it is quite as accurate and quick as mouse control.

you can sit here and tell me all night that a keyboard isnt incredibly limiting in how you can move but i know its not true, and you know its not true.. what i dont understand is why not admit it?.. if you were to admit it, then youd have to face the fact that your PC gaming interface really isnt the best it can be and as stated theres really not much you can do about it as no one makes a better interface

perhaps you are incapable of comprehending the words i have read... i did give pros and cons for keyboards and controllers. i even made suggestions on what pc gaming needed. perhaps you conveniently missed that.

trying to force the "you know its true" words into my mouth is a cop out since you cannot seem to provide enough facts to actually back up your claim.

i dont know about you but i've been speaking from personal experience here, research i've read in the past about controller vs keyboard + mouse as well as general gamer opinion from spending literally years on a tech forum. no lies or hiding the truth here.

no one makes a better interface because all the games we play now are designed to use a keyboard.. and they design them to use a keyboard because everyone has a keyboard for gaming (well most people) and the reason they use a keyboard for gaming is because this is what games are made for... its a loop that ive noticed PC gaming has been stuck in for literally decades. and im saying we need a change.. i think its time to toss aside the keyboard and come up with a new idea and thats what i was trying to discuss

that is just the point... there are already different interfaces available... that you could use. perhaps i'll list a few for you.

ATOC gun controller
http://www.atoc-gaming-gun.com/index.php/en/videos
-instead of using a mouse all movement is linked to side to side movement of the gun. the game can be viewed on the attached lcd screen.
-forward movement would have to be via analog stick

Zalman FS1000 gun mouse
-basically a gun stick on a mouse. not sure i like it but it is unique.

Splitfish FragFX v2 (this one is for ps3 and xb360)
-basically its the same concept you have except for consoles

Leetgion El'druin
http://www.leetgion.com/product-eldruin.php
-basically a fancy gaming mouse with an analog stick on the side

Lexip Pro 3d mouse
http://www.lexip.fr/pro/en.html
-another different analog mouse which has a better thumbstick

Logitech G13 gaming pad
http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/g13-advanced-gameboard
-mini keyboard with analog stick for movement

Unknown 4d finger mouse
http://www.kaboodle.com/reviews/usb-4d-finger-mouse-with-trackball-black
-handheld trackball. would need to be larger for gaming though with more buttons like the wii controller.

Cyber Snipa v2 gaming pad
http://www.cybersnipa.com/us/gaming-keyboards/gamepad.php
-gaming layout mini keyboard

Logitech M570 trackball
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-trackball-m570?crid=8
-trackball combines multiway direction input on a static mouse surface.

Zboard Merc gaming keyboard
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ZBoard/MERCKeyboard/
-full sized keyboard with gaming oriented keys.

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as you can see there has been significant progress over the years in terms of perepheral design. most never make it because either they suck, are too expensive, are too hard to use or people just dont like them. of course there are always niche products which never appeal to the masses but are widely accepted by a certain few types of individuals.

calling the pc perepheral market stale just means that you dont know much about pc perepherals.

i agree that there needs to be optimizations made and some coding added in games to support such features but its not as bad off as you seem to think.

 

[jason41987]

hmm.. now that cyber snipa gamepad looks interesting.. looks like it would be a hell of a lot more comfortable than a keyboard.. when my fingers are curled on a keyboard thats when it begins getting painful.. but i really like the spacing on that z board.. are those pressure sensitive WASD keys?.. that would make it even more interesting if they were

the only downside to keypads though is that they really dont solve any of the issues i, or others with keyboard issues, have with the keyboard itself.. i think the biggest issue that needs to be solved and many mouse+keyboard people agree is that there needs to be some form of analog, omnidirectional movement capabilities.. some suggest pressure sensitive WASD on a keypad.. keypads with an analog thumbstick (i read the logitech wasnt truly analog).. reguardless, it does look like the need for better control is out there, and i hope manufacturers of peripherals take advantage of it.. for the time being ill be using a playstation navigation controller paired with a mouse

im willing to try either the G13 if the stick truly is analog and omnidirectional, and im willing to try a zboard or something similar.. im wondering though.. how are those trackball mice for gaming when compared to a standard mouse or controller?.. ive actually seen an xbox controller that had the right thumbstick removed for a trackball

 

[bystander]

For anyone that wants to try out game pads, you have to give yourself at least a week before you can really tell if it is worth using or not. Our brains have been trained for years to play games a certain way, and changing things requires time to adjust and learn.

The first time I tried using the Nostromo n52, I would get sick after a short while due to my brain just not being ready for something so different than I was used to. After a week, I could easily see a big improvement over using a keyboard. Especially when you use the d-pad.

The G13 has an analog joystick, unfortunately, games for the PC rarely except analog input, and the few that do require you do go through a lot of hoops to get it to use analog with the G13, but it can be done.

The biggest benefit to using the G13 or Nostromo n52 is the thumb joystick/d-pad. Moving with a single thumb button frees up all your fingers to push hotkeys. This gives you a great deal most control with macros.

Then there are the G600's and Razer's Naga. I have tried using the G600 for a week. I did not think I'd like all those keys, but figured I could make use of a few of them at least. The problem is setting up 9 buttons to be controlled by a single digit is not very practical. It requires you to move your thumb all over to push macros, which is a bit harder than having your 4 fingers directly over the hotkeys on a G13 or Nostromo n52. I also found it difficult to lift and reposition the mouse without accidentally pushing a button, since the thumb side of the mouse is covered in buttons.

The G13 has more programming options if you use Lua, and more buttons, which can be quite handy. The Nostromo n52 is more ergonomically pleasing. I ultimately have chosen the G13, but your mileage may vary.

 

[jason41987]

so then its agreed upon the plain ole keyboard is bad, and that keypads are better, but not yet perfect.. i looked up more info on the G13 and although the thumbstick is analog allowing you to move at different speeds it still only works in 8 directions?.. i dunno.. but id also like to see the keys on such an analog keypad laid out a bit more intuitively and ergonomically besides in rows and columns.. like if you play your hand on the table, draw an arch across the top of your fingers then across the last knuckle and put all the buttons in that range.. in a way where they can all be pressed without bending the fingers it would do a lot for comfort and avoiding carpal tunnel like symptoms

the big problem here is that for new control interfaces to be viable, gaming developers need to not put so much emphasis on mapping every single thing to its own key, and come up with more intuitive and simple ways of performing the same functions with less keys, but they wont do that until we started using that new interface.. so we're sort of stuck in a loop

another issue with keyboard is this... once that oculus rift device comes out.. im probably not going to use a monitor anymore.. ill have my tower right next to a recliner, pop the oculus on, put my feet up, and play a game

 

[Privatemanos]

manos, the reason you suck on PS3 is because youre not used to a controller, you havent spent time with it, learned it, developed the skills for precision or the muscle memory.. noticed you were -15, the others werent, thats because they have developed those skills, and i know people with their sensitivity so high they can turn around in a blink of an eye and shoot you.. so because YOU cant manage a FPS with a controller, doesnt mean its the controller

What do you mean im -15? If you mean age im 24 years old.
About the practice thing i play on both consoles + PCs since 2000.

 

[Ezilkannan]

I use a x box controller as well as keyboard + mouse for gaming. Like privatemanos mentioned, Keyboard + mouse is best suited for FPS,RTS,RPG games. I use my controller only when I play games that are neither RTS nor FPS. The controller is much better when you play sports/racing games like NFS or something of the sort. But in FPS well some do play well with a controller, but in my opinion the mouse + keyboard is better, and in RTS, the controller is pretty much useless.

 

[jason41987]

ezilkannan, you mean the mouse you like better for FPS, the keyboard isnt giving you any kind of advantage over a controller and hinders youre ability to really do everything else besides aim which is the point of the discussion

 

[Ezilkannan]

ezilkannan, you mean the mouse you like better for FPS, the keyboard isnt giving you any kind of advantage over a controller and hinders youre ability to really do everything else besides aim which is the point of the discussion

Well then I guess its better to have a controller with you just in case you want to play FPS(If you feel that you are better with a controller) and use the keyboard when you play some RTS or something of that sort.

 

[ssddx]

if you want to break it down to the most simple answer you can:

the best device is the one you are most comfortable using

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this might not be the best device out of all the plethora of devices we have out there but if it fits you best then thats what you should roll with. many of us are perfectly fine with keyboard and mouses. there are others who like controllers. there are others yet who like gamepads.

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the problem today is mostly software. game developers need to allow analog stick support and perhaps a few other features.

 

[jason41987]

well.. im going to map a couple different type of PC games to a combination of the playstation navigation controller (nunchuck with thumbstick, d-pad, 2 face buttons, PS button, L1, L2 trigger, and L3) paired with the 5-button mouse i have now.. ill try some FPS games with this setup and let you guys know what i think when im done, should be interested

but to be completely honest.. i doubt ill see any performance increase in FPS games.. when playing battlefield 4 beta, while i was a gunner in a tank or helicopter id actually grab the mouse for shooting and im actually less accurate with that because i have the coordination and motor skills needed to accurately and precisely use a thumbstick.. as such im a lot more accurate with the thumbstick.. but we'll see how the mouse/nunchuck thing works

 

[jason41987]

well.. im going to map a couple different type of PC games to a combination of the playstation navigation controller (nunchuck with thumbstick, d-pad, 2 face buttons, PS button, L1, L2 trigger, and L3) paired with the 5-button mouse i have now.. ill try some FPS games with this setup and let you guys know what i think when im done, should be interested

but to be completely honest.. i doubt ill see any performance increase in FPS games.. when playing battlefield 4 beta, while i was a gunner in a tank or helicopter id actually grab the mouse for shooting and im actually less accurate with that because i have the coordination and motor skills needed to accurately and precisely use a thumbstick.. as such im a lot more accurate with the thumbstick.. but we'll see how the mouse/nunchuck thing works

 

[bystander]

well.. im going to map a couple different type of PC games to a combination of the playstation navigation controller (nunchuck with thumbstick, d-pad, 2 face buttons, PS button, L1, L2 trigger, and L3) paired with the 5-button mouse i have now.. ill try some FPS games with this setup and let you guys know what i think when im done, should be interested

but to be completely honest.. i doubt ill see any performance increase in FPS games.. when playing battlefield 4 beta, while i was a gunner in a tank or helicopter id actually grab the mouse for shooting and im actually less accurate with that because i have the coordination and motor skills needed to accurately and precisely use a thumbstick.. as such im a lot more accurate with the thumbstick.. but we'll see how the mouse/nunchuck thing works

You may have good skills using a joystick to turn, but it'll never be as accurate as a mouse "can" be. A joystick/thumb stick requires you to push and wait. A mouse allows you to just move it to where you want.

That said, if a joystick is what you feel most comfortable with, go for it.

 

[jason41987]

im still going to debate being able to turn quicker.. with a mouse, you dont just automatically reach your destination immediately, you still have to drag it over across a surface and with a thumbstick you decide the speed in which you turn... its a different way of turning, but no less suitable and just takes a little practice to get it down right.. and the mouse arguement doesnt really do anything for whats wrong with the keyboard.. as whenever mouse and keyboard come into question people immediately jump to defend the mouse, but you dont hear nearly as many of those same people defending the keyboard.. i believe they understand its a flawed input method and that the mouse they enjoy would probably be a lot better off with something else for their left hand

hah.. i just realized my scroll wheel works left-right as well.. so a total of 9 programmable functions for a total of 19 programmable functions available for my nunchuck/mouse 😀

 

[ssddx]

i already provided alternatives for keyboards, notably gamepads. sure they are missing a few features but overall they fill the role nicely.

you are going to debate no matter what is said here. its pointless to continue.

 

[bystander]

im still going to debate being able to turn quicker.. with a mouse, you dont just automatically reach your destination immediately, you still have to drag it over across a surface and with a thumbstick you decide the speed in which you turn... its a different way of turning, but no less suitable and just takes a little practice to get it down right.. and the mouse arguement doesnt really do anything for whats wrong with the keyboard.. as whenever mouse and keyboard come into question people immediately jump to defend the mouse, but you dont hear nearly as many of those same people defending the keyboard.. i believe they understand its a flawed input method and that the mouse they enjoy would probably be a lot better off with something else for their left hand

hah.. i just realized my scroll wheel works left-right as well.. so a total of 9 programmable functions for a total of 19 programmable functions available for my nunchuck/mouse 😀

I don't defend the keyboard, because I don't use a keyboard, but for simple button pressing, there isn't much to discuss, they do the same thing as the controllers buttons in the same manner. The only thing is the lack of an analog joystick. I personally use a G13 which has an analog joystick, so there is no difference there either. Not that it matters, PC's don't have analog input as a choice.

As far as the mouse goes vs the joystick, you can't be serious about the time it takes to move the mouse. It takes no more time to move the mouse 3 inches or less as it takes to push the joystick, but unlike the joystick, there is no timing required with a mouse.

But anyways, go for it, have fun. It shouldn't matter to you what I think, other than the possibility of you learning how to use a mouse, which will take at least a week of solid use without ever using your controller to just start to feel comfortable (the same time it takes to go from mouse to joystick). It will then take a couple more weeks before you see huge benefits.

Of course games that use some sort of auto-aim features will give advantages to the joystick, but that isn't about an input being better, but game dev's giving joysticks a chance to compete.

 

[jason41987]

well, since 90% of the pain in the hand i get from trying to use a keyboard form gaming is the WASD keys.. a keypad might just work having a thumbstick... but id like to know more about the G13 from people that have it.. is it a truly analog thumbstick capable of being mapped to the typical X and Y axis.. with full omnidirectional movement? and are there any ways of using it off a desk?.. maybe sitting on my leg... duct taped to my hand (kind of sarcastic on that last one)

as i play now, i set in a chair.. a recliner, and i have a desk to the rigth side of this chair that my mouse is on.. monitor in front of me.. but im likely to mount this on an arm coming out of the wall soon, so i can play games relaxed in a recliner.. i wonder if leaving the mouse where it is now id be able to put the G13 on my leg

 

[bystander]

well, since 90% of the pain in the hand i get from trying to use a keyboard form gaming is the WASD keys.. a keypad might just work having a thumbstick... but id like to know more about the G13 from people that have it.. is it a truly analog thumbstick capable of being mapped to the typical X and Y axis.. with full omnidirectional movement? and are there any ways of using it off a desk?.. maybe sitting on my leg... duct taped to my hand (kind of sarcastic on that last one)

as i play now, i set in a chair.. a recliner, and i have a desk to the rigth side of this chair that my mouse is on.. monitor in front of me.. but im likely to mount this on an arm coming out of the wall soon, so i can play games relaxed in a recliner.. i wonder if leaving the mouse where it is now id be able to put the G13 on my leg

It is truly analog, but games rarely recognize analog input devices. You also have to create a device setup for it, and in general it is a pain to setup, but it is analog. It reads the x and y axis like any other analog device. They also allow you to switch the joystick into a mouse device, which I don't find useful.

But for PC gaming, it's quite rare to find a game that supports analog movement, so I've never really bothered with it for analog. I normally just assign them key presses so it acts like wasd, but on the thumb.

As far as it recognizing diagonals, all joysticks I've ever known only read in x and y axises. They extrapolate the diagonals from how far the joystick is moved sideways and how far it is moved up. Simply put, that is a software issue.

Here is a thread that has some info on it from various users.
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/G-Series-Gaming-Keyboards/G13-analog-stick-for-movement-in-bf3-help/m-p/1033265#M29392

 

[teddymines]

It wouldn't surprise me if someday the standard uses multiple inputs. A flexible paper thin display pad that sits on your desk and contains images of certain buttons like weapons or assignable macros. Right hand would still be a mouse. Voice commands like Reload, Crouch, Run, Use. Possibly head gestures for the actual movement, in conjunction with left hand inputs.

 

[jason41987]

yeah.. im aware of how thumbsticks work and i wasnt sure if this was a true analog thumbstick or not or if the device automatically assigned it to WASD.. also, many games support analog movement.. and more should allow omnidirectional analog movement in a patch if they dont already.. especially if they plan on supporting the steam box which will attract many console gamers to PC... but ill look into the G13.. i think that could be really good

 

[ssddx]

if you purchase your g13 or nostromo from best buy or another brick & mortar retailer you can always return it if you dont like it. this is what i did with the nostromo and g600

i'm not sure if it was a limitation of the game (tera 2) or the device (nostromo) but i was only able to use 8 way run in game not omnidirectional. when i hooked up my ps3 controller i was able to use omnidirectional just fine.

perhaps i should have tested it out on more games... but all other games i was fine with a keyboard. tera 2 is an action rpg so is better suited for a gamepad or controller anyways.

the only way you will know what you like is if you go out and try it out. good luck.

 

[jason41987]

the only problem is there arent anything like a best buy anywhere near me.. im in a town of 1,500 people and its the biggest city in the county.. so i do all my shopping on amazon

 

[ssddx]

ah. well i suppose you have no option than to use amazon, ebay or another online retailer.

most do have return policies but you would have to fork out shipping cost back if you did not like it.

i suppose there isnt much you can do though.

 

[bystander]

if you purchase your g13 or nostromo from best buy or another brick & mortar retailer you can always return it if you dont like it. this is what i did with the nostromo and g600

i'm not sure if it was a limitation of the game (tera 2) or the device (nostromo) but i was only able to use 8 way run in game not omnidirectional. when i hooked up my ps3 controller i was able to use omnidirectional just fine.

perhaps i should have tested it out on more games... but all other games i was fine with a keyboard. tera 2 is an action rpg so is better suited for a gamepad or controller anyways.

the only way you will know what you like is if you go out and try it out. good luck.

Unless Razer has changed the Nostromo a bit, it is not an analog stick. The G13 is, if you change it to joystick mode.

 

[ssddx]

that would explain it then. i figured that was the case.

the ergonomics on the nostromo are better though.