Question I updated the BIOS firmware on my 2 week old PC, as well as some drivers like chipset, bluetooth etc, and now my CPU is performing 20-25% worse

[mfizzel]

Bought a prebuilt from ABS w/ a i7 14700F and MSI PRO B760-VC WIFI motherboard

Here's a benchmark I ran when I first received it.

Yesterday I decided to update the firmware BIOS, and also update some drivers that were available from MSI Center (which shipped w/ the system). Some of these drivers were critical ones like chipset etc.

I now know it's best not to update BIOS unless you're experiencing issues. I did have a few random BSOD's and other quirks which I why I decided to in the first place. There were 5 new BIOS versions since the one that shipped with my system and the notes sounded like there were improvements made. This was my initial reasoning.

After updating the BIOS I noticed XMP was disabled by default so I had to manually enable it. This got my RAM running from stock 4800 to 6000. Other than that I made no other changes after updating BIOS.

I then ran the same benchmark and this was the result:

Scores on max, 16 and 8 threads are significantly lower. Look at the first screenshot I posted, the CPU frequency maintains itself throughout the entire bench, but in this one it drops significantly like it's falling off a cliff (I used red arrows to highlight this).

I noticed this in games too, the performance cores no longer settle on 5300mhz while I'm gaming, they jump around, from 4.7 to 4.9 to 5.1 to 5.3 back down etc etc. I also noticed that the wattage stays around the 65w TDP whereas before it was hitting 100-125w more regularly. It's like the CPU is scared to stretch it's legs now.

I reverted the BIOS to the one that shipped with the system and I'm getting the same benchmark and gaming result. It's like I'm missing a setting somewhere in the BIOS or windows that's making the CPU be more conservative. I can't figure it out. In the BIOS all the settings I would think that need to be turned on are.

The CPU even seems to be running cooler in Windows when it's basically idle and I'm not doing much. So again it feels like some kind of power management thing. BTW, it's definitely not throttling because of heat.

Here's another before and after test,

Before BIOS and driver updates:

After:

The CPU score went down 5,000 pts, or 25%. Checkout the red arrow! What is happening there??

 

[Lutfij]

Did you clear the CMOS after you'd updated the BIOS? In hindsight, you shouldn't let MSI's app tell you if there's any updates pending. If you wanted to update the BIOS, you should do so manually within the BIOS(cross referencing the version you currently have with the one that's the latest on their support site).

What BIOS version are you on for your motherboard?

 

[mfizzel]

Did you clear the CMOS after you'd updated the BIOS? In hindsight, you shouldn't let MSI's app tell you if there's any updates pending. If you wanted to update the BIOS, you should do so manually within the BIOS(cross referencing the version you currently have with the one that's the latest on their support site).

What BIOS version are you on for your motherboard?

I didn't clear the CMOS immediately after updating yesterday but I did it today after contacting ABS support and they suggested it. The benchmark results were the same after doing so. After clearing it I had to re-enable XMP again. There were no other settings I changed.

I did manually update the BIOS via M-FLASH, not via the MSI app. The updates I installed in MSI Center were windows drivers like intel chipset, bluetooth, etc. All of the updates they suggested were newer versions than what was already on the system. I assumed that since these were important drivers and that this app is what shipped with the system that I should update them.

The system shipped with 7D98vB5 (2023-09-12), and I updated it to 7D98vBA (2024-03-05). I've since reverted to 7D98vB5 but have the same issue.

 

[thestryker]

It sounds like one of the turbo/power settings in the BIOS is changing between versions. There are some varying options regarding these settings, but two that are most straightforward:

1. Just try turning Game Boost/Creator Genie (whichever you have) on from EZ Mode.
2. Put the BIOS in Advanced Mode and then in the OC menu look for a cooler option and set that to tower.

 

[dwd999]

I didn't clear the CMOS immediately after updating yesterday but I did it today after contacting ABS support and they suggested it. The benchmark results were the same after doing so. After clearing it I had to re-enable XMP again. There were no other settings I changed.

I did manually update the BIOS via M-FLASH, not via the MSI app. The updates I installed in MSI Center were windows drivers like intel chipset, bluetooth, etc. All of the updates they suggested were newer versions than what was already on the system. I assumed that since these were important drivers and that this app is what shipped with the system that I should update them.

The system shipped with 7D98vB5 (2023-09-12), and I updated it to 7D98vBA (2024-03-05). I've since reverted to 7D98vB5 but have the same issue.

There have been some discussions lately about disabling the CEP functions in bios which supposedly do not affect performance but this is questionable. You could try checking the CEP functions in the CPU section of your bios to see if they're affecting your performance.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...t-losing-performance-recommends-disabling-cep

 

[mfizzel]

It sounds like one of the turbo/power settings in the BIOS is changing between versions. There are some varying options regarding these settings, but two that are most straightforward:

1. Just try turning Game Boost/Creator Genie (whichever you have) on from EZ Mode.
2. Put the BIOS in Advanced Mode and then in the OC menu look for a cooler option and set that to tower.

Sure enough the BIOS was set to boxed cooler, which I believe is for the stock fan Intel provides? I changed it to 'Tower Air Cooler' and my CPU doesn't appear to be throttling anymore. In the benchmarks I'm hitting the #s I did initially. Still running some tests to confirm that the frequency and temps are what they should be and I asked ABS what setting the system ships with to make sure it was in fact this setting that caused the throttling. I asked this question here, reddit and hardforum, as well as contacting the builder and you're the only person that's mentioned it so thank you very much. I knew I had to of been missing something.

As for #1, I couldn't find a Game Boost/Creator Genie option in my BIOS.

 

[mfizzel]

There have been some discussions lately about disabling the CEP functions in bios which supposedly do not affect performance but this is questionable. You could try checking the CEP functions in the CPU section of your bios to see if they're affecting your performance.

https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...t-losing-performance-recommends-disabling-cep

Thanks for the info I'm going to look into this. I'm a little confused by the chart in the link you posted. I have a 14700F w/ a B760 MB, but what is BO stepping? It says 'Yes' for "14th Gen non-K series (BO stepping)", does this apply to my CPU?

 

[NedSmelly]

Sure enough the BIOS was set to boxed cooler, which I believe is for the stock fan Intel provides? I changed it to 'Tower Air Cooler' and my CPU doesn't appear to be throttling anymore.

On MSI BiOS, ‘Boxed cooler’ sets your power limits to Intel retail specs. ‘Tower Air Cooler’ and ‘Water cooler / AIO profile’ basically maxes out Power Limit 1 and 2. When you update BIOS all the settings return to default.

 

[mfizzel]

On MSI BiOS, ‘Boxed cooler’ sets your power limits to Intel retail specs. ‘Tower Air Cooler’ and ‘Water cooler / AIO profile’ basically maxes out Power Limit 1 and 2. When you update BIOS all the settings return to default.

Hi, when you say it maxes out PL1 and 2 what do you mean? On the 14700F the processor base power is 65W and the maximum turbo power is 219W. Is that what the PL1 and 2 are? When I select 'tower air cooler' this allows the CPU to run at it's max performance? Does the system understand what CPU it is and what the power limits are? Is there any danger to it? I am using a tower air cooler BTW. I don't know what brand it is but you can see it here for example: https://www.newegg.com/abs-sa14700f4060ti-stratos-aqua/p/N82E16883360467?Item=N82E16883360467

 

[NedSmelly]

PL2 = Maximum Turbo Power = Short Duration Power = Turbo Boost = 219W
Tau = turbo time limit = boost time limit = 28 seconds
PL1 = Base processor power = long duration power = 65W

You can thank Intel and the motherboard vendors for using different names for the same thing.

‘Boxed cooler’ sticks to these guidelines = it will boost from idle to 219W, stay there for 28 seconds, then settle on 65W.

However Intel doesn’t lock this down, even in non-K CPUs. So motherboard vendors pump them to the max with power to try and beat each other in marketing/benchmarks.

’Tower cooler’ and ’AIO’ profiles on MSI boards completely throw this out the window and set a ridiculously high number for both PL1 and PL2, effectively making Tau irrelevant.

Some mobos even have ‘4096W’ for both PL2 and PL1 as default

So basically it’s feeding your CPU ‘unlimited power’ if not using Box Cooler profile, and you need to be careful to make sure your cooling solution can handle it.

 

[mfizzel]

PL2 = Maximum Turbo Power = Short Duration Power = Turbo Boost = 219W
Tau = turbo time limit = boost time limit = 28 seconds
PL1 = Base processor power = long duration power = 65W

You can thank Intel and the motherboard vendors for using different names for the same thing.

‘Boxed cooler’ sticks to these guidelines = it will boost from idle to 219W, stay there for 28 seconds, then settle on 65W.

However Intel doesn’t lock this down, even in non-K CPUs. So motherboard vendors pump them to the max with power to try and beat each other in marketing/benchmarks.

’Tower cooler’ and ’AIO’ profiles on MSI boards completely throw this out the window and set a ridiculously high number for both PL1 and PL2, effectively making Tau irrelevant.

Some mobos even have ‘4096W’ for both PL2 and PL1 as default

So basically it’s feeding your CPU ‘unlimited power’ if not using Box Cooler profile, and you need to be careful to make sure your cooling solution can handle it.

Thanks a lot for the info.

In your opinion should the 'Boxed Cooler' setting be throttling me as shown in the 2nd screenshot of the 1st post? It stopped after I selected 'Air tower cooler'.

If you check this post:https://www.msi.com/blog/cpu-cooler-tuning-optimized-power-limit-based-on-cpu-coolers and scroll down to their benchmark it says that the Boxed Cooler setting kept the CPU at around 70 degrees which degraded performance. Could that have been what was happening to me?

 

[thestryker]

As for #1, I couldn't find a Game Boost/Creator Genie option in my BIOS.

It only shows up when the BIOS is set to EZ Mode and it's usually in the upper left somewhere on the main screen. I wouldn't use it personally, but it is an option.

Hi, when you say it maxes out PL1 and 2 what do you mean? On the 14700F the processor base power is 65W and the maximum turbo power is 219W. Is that what the PL1 and 2 are? When I select 'tower air cooler' this allows the CPU to run at it's max performance? Does the system understand what CPU it is and what the power limits are? Is there any danger to it? I am using a tower air cooler BTW. I don't know what brand it is but you can see it here for example: https://www.newegg.com/abs-sa14700f4060ti-stratos-aqua/p/N82E16883360467?Item=N82E16883360467

The cooler setting just changes power profiles. The Box Cooler setting might not even follow default settings. Usually MSI displays what the power settings are in the cooler menu. I suggested tower cooler because it allows unlimited boost based on power, but doesn't set the power limit to super high numbers.

 

[NedSmelly]

In your opinion should the 'Boxed Cooler' setting be throttling me as shown in the 2nd screenshot of the 1st post? It stopped after I selected 'Air tower cooler'.

I don’t have your motherboard, but I have an MSI MAG B460 with similar options. On mine, there’s literally no difference between ‘Tower Cooler’ and ‘AIO’ profiles - both set PL2 and PL1 to 253W for my 10700.

I can’t tell from your screenshots, but HWinfo64 live graphs will clearly show you if Tau is being respected in CPU power consumption.

I spent quite a bit of time fiddling with PL2 and PL1 on my 10700. I found that setting PL1 to 135W got me within 96% of the Cinebench score at 253W, but had more sane temperatures. I don’t know if this applies to your 14700, so I’d suggest having a go at tweaking it manually if you’re up for it.