RADIO_ACTIVE
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- Jan 17, 2008
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[citation][nom]CaedenV[/nom]lol, I forgot about the 'quest' games. Hero quest, kings quest, and space quest! They were fun to play, had killer graphics (well... for the days of dos and win95), and insane story lines. Everything games were ever meant to be before the modern 'serious' RPG games took over. I do enjoy a good serious RPG from time to time, but I would absolutely love to have a fun light game to enjoy that eats a hundred hours or so.[/citation]
I did enjoy Kings quest and space quest (I don't remember if I played Hero quest). The thing is, Kings quest, Space quest, Zork and the likes were never considered RPG's. They've always been considered adventure games. The adventure games are all about puzzle solving and do not have much combat and no leveling systems which are a big part of RPG's.
I did enjoy Kings quest and space quest (I don't remember if I played Hero quest). The thing is, Kings quest, Space quest, Zork and the likes were never considered RPG's. They've always been considered adventure games. The adventure games are all about puzzle solving and do not have much combat and no leveling systems which are a big part of RPG's.
This list is ludicrous. Its obvious the author stopped playing RPGs in 1998, knows Skyrim is on the shelf at Target and added a random pick with Dragon Age. Lists are personal, sure, but this is just ridiculous. Its not even a best of list, its a HISTORY. It's like european history that jumps from the renaissance to the beatles. If it's a history in pictures than at least show an evolution in graphics which 15 2d/2.5d software rendered games and two true 3d games ain't it. Tom's should retract this article altogether.
Bluescreendeath
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- Jan 15, 2009
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It jumps from 1998 to 2006? What about Morrowind, Oblivion, Planescape Tournament, Dragon Age 1, Fable, Guild Wars, Knights of the Old Republic, etc?
This list is retarded.
This list is retarded.
Bluescreendeath
Splendid
- Jan 15, 2009
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It jumps from 1998 to 2006? What about Morrowind, Oblivion, Planescape Tournament, Final Fantasy, Fable, Guild Wars, Knights of the Old Republic, etc?
This list is retarded.
This list is retarded.
The_Trutherizer
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- Jul 21, 2008
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jtd871
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- Jan 26, 2012
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Where's the love for Darklands? Hello?! Open-world, nonlinear game play. Roll your own party. Skill progression (attributes largely fixed) based on use. Primitive, but effective morality system. Persistent changes to world. Isometric perspective in dungeons. Sheesh!
buzznut
Splendid
- Sep 26, 2007
- 3,650
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[citation][nom]tyrecies[/nom]What About Daggerfall?[/citation]
Yeah, this was such an improvement on Arena its like they weren't even the same game series. 1st time for real time weather effects. Huge game world to explore, random encounters, huge dungeons, I could go on and on. Daggerfall was the most innovative game of its time, and a huge RPG adventure.
Also I'll mention the Heroes II and III of the same missing time frame.
Yeah, this was such an improvement on Arena its like they weren't even the same game series. 1st time for real time weather effects. Huge game world to explore, random encounters, huge dungeons, I could go on and on. Daggerfall was the most innovative game of its time, and a huge RPG adventure.
Also I'll mention the Heroes II and III of the same missing time frame.
- Jul 27, 2011
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I loved the Ultima series - the original NES version of Ultima was my first foray into RPGs and I've been hooked ever since. I just dusted off my copy of Diablo II in preparations for Diablo III - can't wait!
demonhorde665
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- Jul 13, 2008
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this is stupid , you start out the article saying you chose the most impacting games on teh genre , yet you have dragon age and skyrim on this ????
WTF ???
yeah granted those were good games they were not influential in the development of the genre so much as they are culmination of past influences
what about elder scrolls 3 morrowind , or neverwinter nights , ES 3 was by far the best game in the series (and still is ) . and NO other rpg has brought home brewed MMOing to folks like nwn 1 and 2 have , infact ther are still more people playing the first nwn online game than there are playing the second one online. yet you only give these games slight side mention under baldur's gate , and then jump right to dragon age origin a game that while being great , didn't really bring ANY thing new to the "table"
neither did skyrim either for that matter.
you lookat too many "early" days games , too few "mid days" games. the article reads odd , and skipps large chunks of important role playing game history.
WTF ???
yeah granted those were good games they were not influential in the development of the genre so much as they are culmination of past influences
what about elder scrolls 3 morrowind , or neverwinter nights , ES 3 was by far the best game in the series (and still is ) . and NO other rpg has brought home brewed MMOing to folks like nwn 1 and 2 have , infact ther are still more people playing the first nwn online game than there are playing the second one online. yet you only give these games slight side mention under baldur's gate , and then jump right to dragon age origin a game that while being great , didn't really bring ANY thing new to the "table"
neither did skyrim either for that matter.
you lookat too many "early" days games , too few "mid days" games. the article reads odd , and skipps large chunks of important role playing game history.
Ananan
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- Apr 2, 2007
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It was the first 3d RPG that had fully voiced characters. It made Morrowind feel like a puppet-filled joke.
It was also the first 3d RPG that had NPCs with daily schedules.
But then agian, stevelord, you never played it, so why am I responding to you? Go away.
It was also the first 3d RPG that had NPCs with daily schedules.
But then agian, stevelord, you never played it, so why am I responding to you? Go away.
I think KOTOR missing is crazy. It set forth a fantastic series including the play good or bad that allowed greater choice in game play. Mass Effect only exists as a result of KOTOR.
The Witcher brought this to a whole new level with tons of completely different scripted endings based various decisions taken. It also had the least good or bad model ever seen, with none of that either I am an angel or the devil. Instead, it often lived by the motto of "no good deed goes unpunished".
The Witcher brought this to a whole new level with tons of completely different scripted endings based various decisions taken. It also had the least good or bad model ever seen, with none of that either I am an angel or the devil. Instead, it often lived by the motto of "no good deed goes unpunished".
Cy-Kill
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- Mar 9, 2010
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'Diablo established the sub-category of computer action role-playing games.'
No it didn't, we have had action RPGs in one form [console and/or arcade] or another since the '80s; there were even other action RPGs that came out around the same time Diablo did, granted that it was the more popular one, still doesn't mean it 'established the sub-category' when ARPGs were already around!
No it didn't, we have had action RPGs in one form [console and/or arcade] or another since the '80s; there were even other action RPGs that came out around the same time Diablo did, granted that it was the more popular one, still doesn't mean it 'established the sub-category' when ARPGs were already around!
Hi everybody,
Sorry for the late reply. I was out of town for a few days, and I got exactly what I paid for with the free hotel internet.
Since this article has generated a lot more excitement than I imagined (it has about as many comments as the GTX 690 launch article), I would like to address a few points/games you have mentioned.
BASIC SETUP
- WHERE I AM COMING FROM: I have played cRPGs continuously starting with The Bard’s Tale on a C64 until today. I am currently playing Skyrim, and am planning to play Legend of Grimrock next.
- INNOVATION: Before writing the article, I made some basic decisions. It was not supposed to be another best of list, but a list of games that had shaped the genre. Consequently, it was going to be heavy on earlier games.
- 15 GAMES LIMIT: Originally, I wanted it to be the 10 games that shaped the genre most. After some research, I decided to go to 15 games, plus two current games to show where we are right now. This is about the maximum many people will still click all the way through for a list like this, so for every game added beyond this, another one would need to be taken out.
- JUST cRPGs: The list was only going to have "classic" computer role-playing games. Games like Zork, King's Quest, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, etc. are considered Adventure Games, not cRPGs. Wolfenstein, Doom, etc. are considered First Person Shooters, not cRPGs. I was thinking about doing similar articles about those genres, as I have played, and am playing, them as well. Let me know if you would be interested in that (and what games you would like to see)!
- No MMORPGs: Some people feel that Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, Guild Wars, TOR, etc. are in their own category, others feel that they are cRPGs. I think there are good arguments to be made by both sides, and I play both. I left them out mostly for practical reasons, as I already had to cut out games I would have liked to be on the list. I have played EQ and am playing WoW and some TOR.
- Just PC: I decided to go with games that were primarily PC games only, so no Final Fantasy, etc. This is a PC site, after all.
"JUMP"
The biggest criticism of the article seems to be that there is a "jump" after 1998. This was not my intention. I should have made it clear that the last two games are just in there as two current games to show where the genre is right now. My intention was for the list to end after 1998. Frankly, in my very humble personal opinion, I do not think that there has been that much innovation in the genre since, with a couple of notable exceptions (see below). Don't get me wrong, graphics have improved by a great deal. I put the two current games in to show that. Sound, often overlooked, has improved just as much, if not more. Fully voiced NPCs have certainly added to the immersion.
But I started playing these games with The Bard’s Tale on a C64, and the games on this list that I played felt like a whole new experience. The first time I played Pool of Radiance, or Ultima 6/7, or Baldur’s Gate, just after they came out, I was blown away. I think SW:KotOR and DA: O are some of the best games ever made, bar none, and I am currently playing Skyrim, which I think is fantastic, but, for me, they did not have the same innovative quality that these earlier games had.
Overall, and I know a lot of people will disagree with this, when I look at Dragon Age: Origins, and then trace it back all the way to Baldur’s Gate, I don’t think that much has happened. I have played every game in the “series,” including expansions, no matter the developer and publisher: Baldur’s Gate II, NWN, NWN2, SW:KotOR, SW:KotOR2, DA: O, DA2. I think they peaked with Baldur’s Gate II. Yes, I said it, I think that was the best one of the bunch, with a close shared second place going to SW:KotOR and DA: O. NWN was fantastic for its online/DM component, but as I said above, I disregard multiplayer for the purposes of this article.
An argument can be made to include The Elder Scrolls II and III. I thought there was some noticeable innovation beyond graphics and sound. But cutting out two of the other games for them and ending up with four Elder Scrolls games out of 17 games? So I decided to limit every series to two at the most, and with the first and last one. As a side note, Oblivion becomes just as good, if not better, than the others if you mod it enough. I recommend OOO and Qarl's Texture Pack III, for starters.
Why do I think innovation has mostly stalled since 1998 or so? Unfortunately, developers/publishers don’t like to take risks any more. With the advent of AAA titles that are almost as expensive to make as AAA movies, everybody just sticks with the tried and true formulas. This makes for some great and highly refined and polished games, but not a whole lot of innovation. Then again, we seem to be entering the age of the indies on the PC, and I expect some great innovative games to come out soon.
INDIVIDUAL GAMES
Here are my comments on some of the individual games mentioned.
- All the BioWare games: see above.
- All the Elder Scrolls games: see above.
- Dungeon Master / System Shock: Personal favorites, would have been next games to make it in.
- Rogue / Hack / Dungeon Hack / Might and Magic 6/7: Personal favorites, almost made it in.
- Auto-Duel: Considered it, but did not really know it before my research for this article.
- Planescape Torment: Personal favorite, but already had “strong story” game with Hero’s Quest, which was a big deal at the time, and also a hybrid. Why doesn’t anybody mention Krondor for this category? I enjoyed that one even more than the other two, which I already enjoyed a lot.
- Other Gold Box Games: I played practically all of these, but they mostly stuck with the same (great!) engine and formula.
- Lands of Lore / Witcher: Personal Favorites, but I did not think they were THAT innovative.
- Gothic: OK, people are not going to like me any better for this, but I never got into Gothic. I did not think it was THAT innovative, either. Just didn’t connect with it.
- Diablo II: Not enough of a jump from Diablo I for me. Online component is a really big thing here, but I am not taking that into account for this article.
- Mass Effect: Personally, I always considered this one to be more of a console game for some reason. Admittedly, that might be just me.
- Ultima 6 engine spinoffs: Why doesn’t anyone mention the Ultima: Worlds of Adventure spinoffs? The Savage Empire and Martian Dreams. Really enjoyed these.
Well, there you have it.
I know that I should have been more clear about the rationale, maybe even with a different title, and that the last two games were current examples. After reading the comments, I am thinking it would have been a good idea to have a few “summary” slides for several games in there, instead of making it just one “prototypical” game per slide, but I thought I’d keep it simple when I wrote the article.
Let me know what you think and if you’d like to see articles like this one about different genres (with the improvements mentioned above)!
-Arne
Sorry for the late reply. I was out of town for a few days, and I got exactly what I paid for with the free hotel internet.
Since this article has generated a lot more excitement than I imagined (it has about as many comments as the GTX 690 launch article), I would like to address a few points/games you have mentioned.
BASIC SETUP
- WHERE I AM COMING FROM: I have played cRPGs continuously starting with The Bard’s Tale on a C64 until today. I am currently playing Skyrim, and am planning to play Legend of Grimrock next.
- INNOVATION: Before writing the article, I made some basic decisions. It was not supposed to be another best of list, but a list of games that had shaped the genre. Consequently, it was going to be heavy on earlier games.
- 15 GAMES LIMIT: Originally, I wanted it to be the 10 games that shaped the genre most. After some research, I decided to go to 15 games, plus two current games to show where we are right now. This is about the maximum many people will still click all the way through for a list like this, so for every game added beyond this, another one would need to be taken out.
- JUST cRPGs: The list was only going to have "classic" computer role-playing games. Games like Zork, King's Quest, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry, etc. are considered Adventure Games, not cRPGs. Wolfenstein, Doom, etc. are considered First Person Shooters, not cRPGs. I was thinking about doing similar articles about those genres, as I have played, and am playing, them as well. Let me know if you would be interested in that (and what games you would like to see)!
- No MMORPGs: Some people feel that Ultima Online, Everquest, WoW, Guild Wars, TOR, etc. are in their own category, others feel that they are cRPGs. I think there are good arguments to be made by both sides, and I play both. I left them out mostly for practical reasons, as I already had to cut out games I would have liked to be on the list. I have played EQ and am playing WoW and some TOR.
- Just PC: I decided to go with games that were primarily PC games only, so no Final Fantasy, etc. This is a PC site, after all.
"JUMP"
The biggest criticism of the article seems to be that there is a "jump" after 1998. This was not my intention. I should have made it clear that the last two games are just in there as two current games to show where the genre is right now. My intention was for the list to end after 1998. Frankly, in my very humble personal opinion, I do not think that there has been that much innovation in the genre since, with a couple of notable exceptions (see below). Don't get me wrong, graphics have improved by a great deal. I put the two current games in to show that. Sound, often overlooked, has improved just as much, if not more. Fully voiced NPCs have certainly added to the immersion.
But I started playing these games with The Bard’s Tale on a C64, and the games on this list that I played felt like a whole new experience. The first time I played Pool of Radiance, or Ultima 6/7, or Baldur’s Gate, just after they came out, I was blown away. I think SW:KotOR and DA: O are some of the best games ever made, bar none, and I am currently playing Skyrim, which I think is fantastic, but, for me, they did not have the same innovative quality that these earlier games had.
Overall, and I know a lot of people will disagree with this, when I look at Dragon Age: Origins, and then trace it back all the way to Baldur’s Gate, I don’t think that much has happened. I have played every game in the “series,” including expansions, no matter the developer and publisher: Baldur’s Gate II, NWN, NWN2, SW:KotOR, SW:KotOR2, DA: O, DA2. I think they peaked with Baldur’s Gate II. Yes, I said it, I think that was the best one of the bunch, with a close shared second place going to SW:KotOR and DA: O. NWN was fantastic for its online/DM component, but as I said above, I disregard multiplayer for the purposes of this article.
An argument can be made to include The Elder Scrolls II and III. I thought there was some noticeable innovation beyond graphics and sound. But cutting out two of the other games for them and ending up with four Elder Scrolls games out of 17 games? So I decided to limit every series to two at the most, and with the first and last one. As a side note, Oblivion becomes just as good, if not better, than the others if you mod it enough. I recommend OOO and Qarl's Texture Pack III, for starters.
Why do I think innovation has mostly stalled since 1998 or so? Unfortunately, developers/publishers don’t like to take risks any more. With the advent of AAA titles that are almost as expensive to make as AAA movies, everybody just sticks with the tried and true formulas. This makes for some great and highly refined and polished games, but not a whole lot of innovation. Then again, we seem to be entering the age of the indies on the PC, and I expect some great innovative games to come out soon.
INDIVIDUAL GAMES
Here are my comments on some of the individual games mentioned.
- All the BioWare games: see above.
- All the Elder Scrolls games: see above.
- Dungeon Master / System Shock: Personal favorites, would have been next games to make it in.
- Rogue / Hack / Dungeon Hack / Might and Magic 6/7: Personal favorites, almost made it in.
- Auto-Duel: Considered it, but did not really know it before my research for this article.
- Planescape Torment: Personal favorite, but already had “strong story” game with Hero’s Quest, which was a big deal at the time, and also a hybrid. Why doesn’t anybody mention Krondor for this category? I enjoyed that one even more than the other two, which I already enjoyed a lot.
- Other Gold Box Games: I played practically all of these, but they mostly stuck with the same (great!) engine and formula.
- Lands of Lore / Witcher: Personal Favorites, but I did not think they were THAT innovative.
- Gothic: OK, people are not going to like me any better for this, but I never got into Gothic. I did not think it was THAT innovative, either. Just didn’t connect with it.
- Diablo II: Not enough of a jump from Diablo I for me. Online component is a really big thing here, but I am not taking that into account for this article.
- Mass Effect: Personally, I always considered this one to be more of a console game for some reason. Admittedly, that might be just me.
- Ultima 6 engine spinoffs: Why doesn’t anyone mention the Ultima: Worlds of Adventure spinoffs? The Savage Empire and Martian Dreams. Really enjoyed these.
Well, there you have it.
I know that I should have been more clear about the rationale, maybe even with a different title, and that the last two games were current examples. After reading the comments, I am thinking it would have been a good idea to have a few “summary” slides for several games in there, instead of making it just one “prototypical” game per slide, but I thought I’d keep it simple when I wrote the article.
Let me know what you think and if you’d like to see articles like this one about different genres (with the improvements mentioned above)!
-Arne
thehidecheck
Distinguished
- Jan 8, 2012
- 30
- 0
- 18,540
awe I think you were on the right track but you'd probably be better off doing statistical data collection as to which games in each genre was most influential. You would take it from what seemed like an article written in 3 minutes to one that speaks to the masses since they would have been where the info would have came from. Otherwise its seems that you are just spewing personal opinion as to what is best instead of finding what your audience thinks was the best.
You are still overlooking a serious change in the RPG genre: the option games like KOTOR and The Witcher have of playing different alignments in story driven RPGs. Not only can you play the 'dark side' but the story and ending will change accordingly. The WIthcer and WItcher 2 take this even deeper, since not only can you chnage the entire unfolding of the plot, but the choices are no longer clean-cut white or black. Instead it is a series of shades of grey. This is an incredibly important change in the way cRPGs have evolved. Not one of the games show reflects this evolution.
CaedenV
Splendid
- Jun 14, 2011
- 4,829
- 3
- 23,465
[citation][nom]bystander[/nom]I did enjoy Kings quest and space quest (I don't remember if I played Hero quest). The thing is, Kings quest, Space quest, Zork and the likes were never considered RPG's. They've always been considered adventure games. The adventure games are all about puzzle solving and do not have much combat and no leveling systems which are a big part of RPG's.[/citation]
Sure, Space quest was an adventure game (with so many great ways to die lol), but King's quest had a definate RPG element to it, and was (I believe) the first game to let you take your character (level stats, looks, etc) and import them into the next game. While you could not beat the game without solving the 'puzzles' (oddly reminiscent of today's 'quest' system on many RPGs), you also could not beat the games without some level of combat and stat upgrades.
Either way, the last 'fun' RPG that I played anywhere near this vein of story style was Final Fantasy 9. I really wish more games were like that. There is a place for the D2/3, and dragon age style games, but I miss the days when games were just fun and entertaining.
Sure, Space quest was an adventure game (with so many great ways to die lol), but King's quest had a definate RPG element to it, and was (I believe) the first game to let you take your character (level stats, looks, etc) and import them into the next game. While you could not beat the game without solving the 'puzzles' (oddly reminiscent of today's 'quest' system on many RPGs), you also could not beat the games without some level of combat and stat upgrades.
Either way, the last 'fun' RPG that I played anywhere near this vein of story style was Final Fantasy 9. I really wish more games were like that. There is a place for the D2/3, and dragon age style games, but I miss the days when games were just fun and entertaining.
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