News Intel’s next-gen desktop CPUs may run even hotter than current ones — chipmaker allegedly extends maximum temperature for Arrow Lake CPUs

[Admin]

Intel reportedly increases the TJMax temperature for Arrow Lake and Panther Lake processors to 105°C.

Intel’s next-gen desktop CPUs may run even hotter than current ones — chipmaker allegedly extends maximum temperature for Arrow Lake CPUs : Read more

 

[Taslios]

If the "silicon degradation" issue on the Raptor lake chips is at all heat related... I don't see this as ending well for Intel.....

 

[TerryLaze]

Intel reportedly increases the TJMax temperature for Arrow Lake and Panther Lake processors to 105°C.

Intel’s next-gen desktop CPUs may run even hotter than current ones — chipmaker allegedly extends maximum temperature for Arrow Lake CPUs : Read more

However, if a laptop CPU works at 100 to 105 degrees Celsius for a long time, notebooks may be uncomfortable because they will get hot. The increase in TJMax could mean that Intel is confident that its silicon will survive a temperature of 105 degrees Celsius and not degrade, which is good.

It's not the CPU temp that causes a laptop, or any PC, to feel hot, it's the sustained amount of power that the cooling removes from the CPU that makes the environment hot, so leaving more of the heat on the CPU will let more of the heat stay within the case instead of escaping.

Of course higher tjmax would suggest higher TDP and in that case it would make the laptop hotter but higher TDP is not the only reason to increase Tjmax.

If the "silicon degradation" issue on the Raptor lake chips is at all heat related... I don't see this as ending well for Intel.....

You think that you thought about it and they didn't?!

 

[ezst036]

Intel seems to always come back to Northwood.

 

[hotaru251]

intels gonna end up being the 1st cpu to req water cooling at this rate.

they really do need to figure soemthing out and not have "just moar power" be the answer...

AMD figured it out w/ zen so intel could as they have much more resources to throw at the issue.

 

[Taslios]

@TerryLaze

No I suspect Engineers are very aware. However I also get the feeling that there are people making choices in Intel that are choosing to make acceptable risks to maintain benchmark leads wherever they can.

That Intel has yet to really make any sort of official statement in regards to what Level 1 Techs and game developers are saying about stability and degradation leads me to believe that either Legal, or Marketing is weighing their options.

Their Silence is letting arm chair reddit "experts" gather a lot of torches and pitchforks.

 

[Lucky_SLS]

intels gonna end up being the 1st cpu to req water cooling at this rate.

I think that distinction goes to AMD's FX 9590

 

[vijosef]

We need radiators boosted with peltier cells, controlled by software so they don't grow ice.

 

[TerryLaze]

intels gonna end up being the 1st cpu to req water cooling at this rate.

I think that distinction goes to AMD's FX 9590

Also it's the official recommendation for the 5950x and 7950x.
And the 5900x and 7900x
https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/desktops/ryzen/5000-series/amd-ryzen-9-5900x.html

Recommended Cooler: Liquid cooler recommended for optimal performance

 

[ThomasKinsley]

It's going to be a good 1.5-3 years before we start seeing signs of Intel coming back with great chips. Until then, the Intel fans who buy now are holding the line much like those who bought the Phenom and Bulldozer series for AMD.

 

[zipspyder]

Is the article right....100 degrees Celsius for laptops? WTF

 

[Notton]

Is the article right....100 degrees Celsius for laptops? WTF

Laptop CPUs operating near TJMax has been the norm for... at least 20 years now.
Although, it's entirely up to the laptop manufacturer to do better than that.

One way to cut down on weight is to reduce heatsink material, and they totally do that.
Another way to cut down on costs is to use less heatpipes, and they totally do that.
My Dell 7405 2-in-1 uses a dinky little heatsink (half the size of a pinky finger) for a R5-4500U, and it sucks. It constantly hits 100C when it does a AV scan in the background. If Dell used a slightly larger heatsink, I'm sure it would never exceed 80C.
Meanwhile, I also have an Acer Aspire 3 with i5-1135G7. It uses a moderately sized heatsink and never goes past 76C.

 

[Taslios]

It's going to be a good 1.5-3 years before we start seeing signs of Intel coming back with great chips. Until then, the Intel fans who buy now are holding the line much like those who bought the Phenom and Bulldozer series for AMD.

fanboys are going to fanboy. Anyone who buys Intel right now deserves nearly the same degree of mockery as those who bought AMD CPUs in 2014

 

[ThomasKinsley]

fanboys are going to fanboy. Anyone who buys Intel right now deserves nearly the same degree of mockery as those who bought AMD CPUs in 2014

There is some truth to that, but if the fanboys didn't buy then we wouldn't have today's AMD that serves as a counterweight against Intel's current antics. Even fanboys have their place by buying the lesser stuff so everyone can later enjoy the better products.

 

[PCWarrior]

Intel increasing TJmax is a good thing. It means they have confidence in their new silicon being capable of operating at higher temps. It doesn’t mean that it will operate at higher temps – not at stock clocks at least. Previous gens like the 3rd gen (3770K) had TJmax of 105C. They didn’t run hot at stock, did they? Some people should stop assume the worst just because it serves a narrative against the rival company. I never understood why anyone would fanboy over a mutli-billion corporation. That be Intel, AMD or Nvidia. If Intel were to disappear would that help things out in x86 cpus? Of course not. We need BOTH Intel and AMD to do well, to keep one-upping each other and keep in check one another in prices.

 

[uWebb429]

The Core Ultra 7 155H is already up to 110°C.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...-processor-155h-24m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

Max Operating Temperature

This is the maximum operating temperature allowed as reported by temperature sensors. Instantaneous temperature may exceed this value for short durations. Note: Maximum observable temperature is configurable by system vendor and can be design specific.

 

[KyaraM]

Intel increasing TJmax is a good thing. It means they have confidence in their new silicon being capable of operating at higher temps. It doesn’t mean that it will operate at higher temps – not at stock clocks at least. Previous gens like the 3rd gen (3770K) had TJmax of 105C. They didn’t run hot at stock, did they? Some people should stop assume the worst just because it serves a narrative against the rival company. I never understood why anyone would fanboy over a mutli-billion corporation. That be Intel, AMD or Nvidia. If Intel were to disappear would that help things out in x86 cpus? Of course not. We need BOTH Intel and AMD to do well, to keep one-upping each other and keep in check one another in prices.

Amen.

We can't say anything about TDP or operating temperatures at this point in time at all. Cool your heads everyone. Besides, 105°C is hardly overly hard, it's 5°C more than before and as said in the quote above. I ran 3rd gen Intel on a 15€ air cooler and it stayed around 50°C at all times...

 

[TheHerald]

, so leaving more of the heat on the CPU will let more of the heat stay within the case instead of escaping.

That's not how it works though. The rate at which heat is transfered will be the same regardless of how hot your cpu is

 

[TheHerald]

intels gonna end up being the 1st cpu to req water cooling at this rate.

they really do need to figure soemthing out and not have "just moar power" be the answer...

AMD figured it out w/ zen so intel could as they have much more resources to throw at the issue.

The usual nonsense again. Intel offers the skus at 65w and 35w tdps. You are focused on the enthusiasts k lineup to make a point. Intel has much more efficient chips that you can buy and run out of the box than amd has. That's a fact. We need to stop with the nonsense.

 

[bit_user]

We need radiators boosted with peltier cells, controlled by software so they don't grow ice.

It's been tried. TECs are very inefficient and (AFAIK) generally haven't been shown to be a not worthwhile addition to a CPU cooler.

I think there's a way to use TECs to relatively good effect, in a water cooling loop. If you use one near the outlet of a radiator, you should be able to achieve cooler water temps, without wasting too much energy (i.e. because the water is mostly cool, by that point). I don't know if anyone has tried it, but I'd guess probably.

 

[bit_user]

It's going to be a good 1.5-3 years before we start seeing signs of Intel coming back with great chips.

Lunar Lake and Arrow Lake both sound rather promising, based on what Intel has published about them. Both are due out this year (Lunar in Q3, then Arrow in Q4).

 

[TheHerald]

It's been tried. TECs are very inefficient and (AFAIK) generally haven't been shown to be a not worthwhile addition to a CPU cooler.

I think there's a way to use TECs to relatively good effect, in a water cooling loop. If you use one near the outlet of a radiator, you should be able to achieve cooler water temps, without wasting too much energy (i.e. because the water is mostly cool, by that point). I don't know if anyone has tried it, but I'd guess probably.

Tecs are terrible. When you need them the most (high power draws) they completely fail.

 

[bit_user]

Does anyone know the formal definition of TJMax? Is it just the hottest point at the interface between the die and IHS, or is there some minimum area specified, as well?

The reason I ask is that...

Intel increasing TJmax is a good thing. It means they have confidence in their new silicon being capable of operating at higher temps.

First of all, you have a point that they wouldn't do this if the process node couldn't handle it. However, I view it as less of a harmless "vote of confidence" in their new process node, and more of a necessity. My reasoning is illustrated by your next point.

It doesn’t mean that it will operate at higher temps – not at stock clocks at least. Previous gens like the 3rd gen (3770K) had TJmax of 105C. They didn’t run hot at stock, did they?

Ivy Bridge did actually run hotter die temperatures than Sandybridge. Part of that was their unfortunate decision to replace solder with thermal paste, between the die and IHS. Another part of it was due to the size reduction of Ivy Bridge's cores. Smaller cores need to have proportionately smaller TDPs, or else the amount of thermal energy per unit of area goes up. The era of constant thermal density ended approximately in 2006, so it's a given that a lithographic shrink of effectively the same microarchitecture would run at higher thermal density. And that can result in hotspots that are more difficult to cool.

This is one reason Zen 4 is thought to run rather hot, in fact - the thermal density with TSMC's N5 node is quite high. So, given these CPUs' use of Intel's 20A node (and 18A, for Panther Lake?), it seems to me like it might be more of a necessity to tolerate higher TJMax temperatures.

 

[bit_user]

It's not the CPU temp that causes a laptop, or any PC, to feel hot, it's the sustained amount of power that the cooling removes from the CPU that makes the environment hot, so leaving more of the heat on the CPU will let more of the heat stay within the case instead of escaping.

The first part of your statement is right, but the second part is slightly off the mark. You can't "leave heat in the CPU die", because it has incredibly little thermal mass. If heat isn't drawn away from the die at the same rate that the die produces it, the die's temperature increases. Once it gets hot enough, throttling occurs and that reduces the rate at which heat is generated.

The system will reach an equilibrium that's defined by the cooling system's ability to continuously conduct heat away from the die. The hotter the die gets, the easier it is to transfer into the heatsink (i.e. the thermal gradient is potentially steeper), which potentially lets you get away with a smaller heatsink, etc. as @Notton mentioned. See Newton's Law of Cooling.

As @TheHerald said, the laptop will churn out heat at the rate that the CPU produces it. It's then up to the laptop's cooling system to vent that heat, so the chassis & keyboard don't get uncomfortably warm.

 

[TerryLaze]

The first part of your statement is right, but the second part is slightly off the mark. You can't "leave heat in the CPU die", because it has incredibly little thermal mass. If heat isn't drawn away from the die at the same rate that the die produces it, the die's temperature increases. Once it gets hot enough, throttling occurs and that reduces the rate at which heat is generated.

I didn't say in the CPU die, I said on the CPU, it's not like anybody runs (can run) their CPUs without a cooling block or cooling in general.

As @TheHerald said, the laptop will churn out heat at the rate that the CPU produces it. It's then up to the laptop's cooling system to vent that heat, so the chassis & keyboard don't get uncomfortably warm.

Yes, but at 5C more you have 5% more time at the same amount of cooling until that time, or your cooling can run 5% lower and the saturation will happen at the same time.
At 5% lower running cooling your room, or lap, will be 5% cooler for that duration of time and if you use your laptop for light workloads. that duration of time can be indefinite.