News Intel Arc Branding Announced: 'Alchemist' Discrete GPUs Land In Q1 2022

[TerryLaze]

They can sell GPUs at whatever prices they want, as long as they don,t just dump inventory, usually at a significant loss to themselves, for the purpose of running competition out of business.

And how exactly are they supposed to proof one or the other?!
Intel already got burned in the past for giving out that high of a bulk discount that OEMs didn't want to buy CPUs from anybody else and even refused to get them for free because even that would cut into the profit they where doing by buying intel for that cheap.
The FTC didn't proof that intel sold those CPUs at a loss, it was enough that no OEM wanted to deal with any other CPU for them to slap intel with a fee.

 

[InvalidError]

And how exactly are they supposed to proof one or the other?!

I think it'll be outright non-applicable for DG2 since Intel won't have enough to sell to make a dent in the current market even if they gave them away for free.

 

[TerryLaze]

I think it'll be outright non-applicable for DG2 since Intel won't have enough to sell to make a dent in the current market even if they gave them away for free.

From the latest debates about how intel got "all" the 3nm from tsmc, it could easily be that intel might be able to produce at least as many GPUs as AMD, sure intel will also make server CPUs from it but AMD will also have to spread out their 3nm between different products.
The current market is one thing because it entails all the generations of GPUs from at least the last ten years, intel wont make any kind of dent there, but for the newest gen both AMD and Nvidia are extremely restricted in how many units they can produce.

 

[Zerk2012]

I think a lot of people are looking at this the wrong way.

Intel doesn't need to even try to compete with cards like the 3080ti / 3090 if the best they can do is get to the say 3060ti /3070 performance area they will sell every card they can make.

The mid range video card market is huge.

For the processors that really has nothing to do with this post neither company is is trouble their and competition is good for everybody.

 

[Ninjago97]

This exactly.

 

[Ninjago97]

This exactly.

So quoting sucks on this device. Anyway, Zerk2012 is 100% correct. All Intel needs to do is make something mid-range that is reliable and it will completely sell out. Even if it's a bit over priced, it will still sell.

 

[InvalidError]

From the latest debates about how intel got "all" the 3nm from tsmc, it could easily be that intel might be able to produce at least as many GPUs as AMD

At some point in the future, maybe. But DG2 is on TSMC's 7nm so Intel flooding the market with cheap GPUs to drive Nvidia and AMD out of the market isn't going to happen any time soon even assuming that is the plan.

 

[escksu]

With ETC taking the first major step towards PoS in December, there won't be a whole lot of GPU crypto-mining to drool over in 2022 when these things launch assuming the schedule does not slip some more.

Not quite. You need to remember eth isnt that only coin that could be mined with gpu today. Its just that its the most profitable.

 

[escksu]

At some point in the future, maybe. But DG2 is on TSMC's 7nm so Intel flooding the market with cheap GPUs to drive Nvidia and AMD out of the market isn't going to happen any time soon even assuming that is the plan.

It may. Because intel could easily bundle their gpus together with cpus and force oems to purchase a min quantity of gpus in order to buy cpus. They can easily undercut nvidia at sell it at a cheaper price.

I wonder be surprised if major oems start selling pcs with intel gpus once it out.

 

[spongiemaster]

From the latest debates about how intel got "all" the 3nm from tsmc, it could easily be that intel might be able to produce at least as many GPUs as AMD, sure intel will also make server CPUs from it but AMD will also have to spread out their 3nm between different products.

Based on what Intel likely had to pay to get so much of TSMC's 3nm, they aren't going to be using it for gaming GPU's. The rumor is that everything Intel will be producing will be datacenter targeted, 3 CPU's and a GPU, which makes perfect sense. I don't know if it was ever confirmed, but it is basically assumed Intel will be using TSMC's 7nm for DG2.

 

[spongiemaster]

I wonder be surprised if major oems start selling pcs with intel gpus once it out.

Neither would anyone else on the planet. Of course Intel will sell their GPU's to major OEM's. Why on earth would they not do that?

 

[InvalidError]

Neither would anyone else on the planet. Of course Intel will sell their GPU's to major OEM's. Why on earth would they not do that?

Just like how DG1 was pretty much only available through OEMs with the "requirement" partly enforced by the need for proprietary BIOS support only present on specific motherboards.

 

[RodroX]

... Come on intel "ARC"... really?

ARC.. thats it ? 😞

Thats all a multi billion dollar company can come with as a new brand name in 2021, after several years of developing a product?

Dear God, they really need some kids around, and I mean real small kids that will surelly come up with better names than ARC.

 

[Didymos]

Since Intel sells its products always too expensive thanks to its monopoly, it will not help consumers in the future to have “correct” prices.
For the moment AMD and nVidia are having a great time reaching historic highs in the price of graphics cards.
Of course, nothing justifies these prices but we must not forget that we live in a single system: the Capitalist.
And the only value in this system is money, God of humans, and in always doing more.

But it is impossible to make a profit without someone on this planet suffering from it.
But hey, that will never change since it has existed for millennia with the invention of money (by one or more rich and therefore stingy and God).

 

[Alex/AT]

Seems like poorly hidden attempt to jump on mining market train.

 

[TerryLaze]

Since Intel sells its products always too expensive thanks to its monopoly, it will not help consumers in the future to have “correct” prices.

Because they are a monopoly anytime they try to sell their products cheaper they get a 1bil fine by the EU or the FTC because every OEM immediately stops caring (selling) about any other company, completely killing competition.
So you can forget about getting any "correct" pricing.

 

[InvalidError]

Because they are a monopoly

Intel currently has a ~0% market share in discrete graphics. No monopoly there, Intel is a new entrant and it is common for new entrants to make significant losses attempting to break into a market.

 

[TerryLaze]

Intel currently has a ~0% market share in discrete graphics. No monopoly there, Intel is a new entrant and it is common for new entrants to make significant losses attempting to break into a market.

Didymos wasn't talking about the GPU market.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Seems like poorly hidden attempt to jump on mining market train.

There has so far been zero real discussion (by Intel) about mining and Xe Graphics. I'm not saying it hasn't looked into the possibilities mining presents, but publicly at least Intel is focused on data center stuff (machine learning, HPC, etc.) and is using gaming as a way to leverage that on the consumer side. Theoretically, Xe might work fine for mining as well, but that will be predicated almost entirely on how much memory bandwidth it brings to the table. Indications so far are that Xe DG2 stuff (aka Arc) will use GDDR6, probably in a 256-bit interface at the very top. That means similar bandwidth to the RTX 3060 Ti and RX 6800, or around 60-ish MH/s for Ethereum mining. Unless Intel has some way to boost performance without increasing bandwidth, or it decides to make a card with a 384-bit or 512-bit memory interface, mining performance will at best match the cards that already fall around the 500-650 GB/s bandwidth mark.

And of course, there's the fact that Intel started talking about Xe Graphics and its discrete GPU aspirations back in 2018, when mining was not at all a major factor in GPU sales. Nvidia and AMD weren't talking about mining in 2018/2019 either. Everyone got hot and bothered about mining (again) starting in late 2020 and early 2021. It will be interesting to see if Intel's GPUs even work with existing mining software — the DG1 at least basically failed to run any of the normal algorithms when I tried it out. But drivers and software updates can fix that, if there's a reason to do so.

 

[InvalidError]

Indications so far are that Xe DG2 stuff (aka Arc) will use GDDR6, probably in a 256-bit interface at the very top. That means similar bandwidth to the RTX 3060 Ti and RX 6800, or around 60-ish MH/s for Ethereum mining.

Except that if the difficulty bomb drops in December along with the migration to PoS as currently scheduled, it'll be too late for ARC to account for a meaningful fraction of ETC mining regardless of how well it may perform.

 

[TJ Hooker]

Because they are a monopoly anytime they try to sell their products cheaper they get a 1bil fine by the EU or the FTC because every OEM immediately stops caring (selling) about any other company, completely killing competition.
So you can forget about getting any "correct" pricing.

They were fined because they were making deals with OEMs that stipulated that the OEMs would not purchase products from Intel's competitors. In exchange, Intel would sell them CPUs for cheap, at or below cost in some cases IIRC. Kinda important to details to leave out when claiming that Intel gets fined just for selling products cheaply.

 

[TerryLaze]

They were fined because they were making deals with OEMs that stipulated that the OEMs would not purchase products from Intel's competitors. In exchange, Intel would sell them CPUs for cheap, at or below cost in some cases IIRC. Kinda important to details to leave out when claiming that Intel gets fined just for selling products cheaply.

Yeah that's what the EU said to justify it.
That why there is an appeal that was granted by the Court of Justice of the European Union.
https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/CP170090EN-1.pdf

As regards that complaint, the Court of Justice notes that the General Court confirmed the Commission’s line of argument that loyalty rebates granted by an undertaking in a dominant position were, by their very nature, capable of restricting competition such that an analysis of all the circumstances of the case and, in particular, an as efficient competitor test (‘AEC test’) were not necessary.

Dominant position + rebates = automatic fine

The Court observes that, while the Commission emphasised that the rebates at issue were by their very nature capable of restricting competition, it nevertheless carried out an in-depth examination of the circumstances of the case in its decision, which led it to conclude that an as efficient competitor would have had to offer prices which would not have been viable and that, accordingly, the rebate scheme at issue was capable of foreclosing such a competitor. The AEC test therefore played an important role in the Commission’s assessment of whether the rebate scheme at issue was capable of having foreclosure effects on as efficient competitors.

They didn't check if they where selling them below cost, they just said, without owning any FABs and without having any experience in making CPUs, that nobody else could produce them as cheaply so...automatic fine.

 

[deesider]

They didn't check if they where selling them below cost, they just said, without owning any FABs and without having any experience in making CPUs, that nobody else could produce them as cheaply so...automatic fine.

No. Your understanding of competition law and that decision is misguided.

 

[renz496]

MINING makes intel drooling .

nope. it was the other way around

 

[renz496]

Q1 2022 is kinda late for Intel GPUs. Ampere Refresh is expected about the same time and after aprox 6 months RDNA3 will come.

Intel will be very much behind, unless their top Arc GPU is 3090/6900 XT performance levels... or they sell at half the MSRP prices of nvidia and AMD.

that is if intel gunning to go head to head with nvidia and AMD. but i think intel will cater to their strength rather than dug it out with AMD and nvidia in DIY market. remember intel main reason to enter discrete GPU market is not about to win the graphic race. they do it to disrupt nvidia main source of revenue.