News Intel concerned about Irish energy costs says report — wants gov to subsidize renewables

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
You can't explain to me that Intel is not capable of making their fabs more energy efficient. Do we really need lots of machines other then the crucial ones, running 24/7? I'm pointing fingers at,

- Heavy duty office equipment, running 24/7
- Unneeded heating in various area's
- Unnecessary costs and all that?

It's like Intel is attempting to get the best possible deal from whatever country it is shopping into to satisfy shareholders. It's so stupid.

Why should Intel's shareholders and customers pay for a given country's hairbrained alternative energy scheme ?

They are in competition (and arguably losing) with many of the best companies in the entire world.

Providing reliable affordable power is a basic requirement for livability.

Industry in Germany is facing the same problem.
 
Why should Intel's shareholders and customers pay for a given country's hairbrained alternative energy scheme ?

They are in competition (and arguably losing) with many of the best companies in the entire world.

Providing reliable affordable power is a basic requirement for livability.

Industry in Germany is facing the same problem.
Yeah, Germany is really regretting the early retirement of their nuclear power stations. Like, I know the German people really wanted all the nuclear gone due to fear of accidents (completely blown out of proportion, western nuclear plants and modern designs are the safest in the world), but the responsible thing is to build up the replacement infrastructure first, then start decommissioning. But even then, their neighbor France is full of reactors, so they should still be just as fearful of nuclear accidents as before, yet they arent. Like I always like to say, obviously Irrational fears have no rational logic to them lol.
 
Yeah, Germany is really regretting the early retirement of their nuclear power stations. Like, I know the German people really wanted all the nuclear gone due to fear of accidents (completely blown out of proportion, western nuclear plants and modern designs are the safest in the world), but the responsible thing is to build up the replacement infrastructure first, then start decommissioning. But even then, their neighbor France is full of reactors, so they should still be just as fearful of nuclear accidents as before, yet they arent. Like I always like to say, obviously Irrational fears have no rational logic to them lol.

Not in my my backyard-ism. They get what they deserve, despite it being unfortunate.
 
Why should Intel's shareholders and customers pay for a given country's hairbrained alternative energy scheme ?
Intel should've known about this, when they decided to expand their fabs in Ireland. It's a little late to complain about it now.

I think the real issue is that the EU clamped down on Ireland's sweatheart tax breaks. So, now that Intel has to pay a more standard European tax rate, it's complaining about everything else, to try and save a little here or there.

Industry in Germany is facing the same problem.
Germany grew fat on cheap energy from Russia. They were in denial about it, for quite a while. Now, they're having to face the reckoning.

Not in my my backyard-ism. They get what they deserve, despite it being unfortunate.
I can sympathize a little bit, due to having a nuclear Sword of Damocles hanging over them in the Cold War. There was lots of public outcry over this, which probably formed unpleasant associations with nuclear power in the minds of many.

Also don't forget that Chernobyl was in their neighborhood. Except, completely different reactor designs, which is a detail lost on most of the public. I seem to recall parts of Western Europe were even downwind of Chernobyl and it affected things like whether they could drink the milk of cows which grazed there.

That's not to say I agree with their decision, now or at the time. However, I think it's more understandable if you look at it in that context.

their neighbor France is full of reactors, so they should still be just as fearful of nuclear accidents as before, yet they arent.
BTW, France is actually dependent on Russia for its nuclear fuel. The fuel rods are mechanically incompatible with those used in other Western countries, and converting your reactors isn't simple or easy, because it requires changes to all of the fuel-handling infrastructure.
 
Last edited:
Intel should've known about this, when they decided to expand their fabs in Ireland. It's a little late to complain about it now.

I think the real issue is that the EU clamped down on Ireland's sweatheart tax breaks. So, now that Intel has to pay a more standard European tax rate, it's complaining about everything else, to try and save a little here or there.


Germany grew fat on cheap energy from Russia. They were in denial about it, for quite a while. Now, they're having to face the reckoning.


I can sympathize a little bit, due to having a nuclear Sword of Damocles hanging over them in the Cold War. There was lots of public outcry over this, which probably formed unpleasant associations with nuclear power in the minds of many.

Also don't forget that Chernobyl was in their neighborhood. Except, completely different reactor designs, which is a detail lost on most of the public. I seem to recall parts of Western Europe were even downwind of Chernobyl and it affected things like whether they could drink the milk of cows which grazed there.

That's not to say I agree with their decision, now or at the time. However, I think it's more understandable if you look at it in that context.


BTW, France is actually dependent on Russia for its nuclear fuel. The fuel rods are mechanically incompatible with those used in other Western countries, and converting your reactors isn't simple or easy, because it requires changes to all of the fuel-handling infrastructure.
In France’s case, it has its own fuel enriching company Orano in southern France and makes it’s own fuel rods for its standard reactors by France’s Framatome or U.S.’s Westinghouse. The bulk of uranium used by France is purchased from Niger, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Australia.

However, you are correct in that the 4 new French reactors at complex 56, designed to use recycled fuel from their standard reactors, currently has to come from Russia, until they finish building their own domestic fuel recycling industry, as Russia is the only remaining nation with the infrastructure to reprocess spent reactor fuel into “recycled fuel”. So France sends their spent fuel to Russia and pays them to recycle it out of temporary necessity.

After the Cold War came to a close, all the Hot Labs and PUREX processing facilities in the U.S. were closed down, leaving the civilian power generation industry without a way to reprocess fuel efficiently. So this is also something that the U.S. nuclear power industry needs to invest in, since only about 20-30% of the U-235 in fuel rods is fissioned before the fuel rods are considered spent, due to gaseous fission products like xenon cracking and breaking up the fuel pellets. Essentially, US reactors are sitting on enough spent fuel in their spent fuel pools and dry cask storage to theoretically last another 3-4 cycles before true depletion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bit_user
Why should Intel's shareholders and customers pay for a given country's hairbrained alternative energy scheme ?

They are in competition (and arguably losing) with many of the best companies in the entire world.

Providing reliable affordable power is a basic requirement for livability.

Industry in Germany is facing the same problem.
Household consumers in Ireland already subsidize the lower rates that Intel pays for it's power here. On top of that, they have sweetheart tax incentives (Ireland is basically a tax haven). It's not up to Ireland to subsidise Intel's business failures too.

Intel is on its knees because of horrible decision making at the top over the past decade or two. Intel leaned hard into short term gains, buying back stocks and pumping up shareholder dividends instead of investing in the future and now they're paying the price. Sure power prices don't help, but it's not the reason Intel is failing. Intel in it's greed ate off its own fingers similar to Boeing.
 
Energy prices are high in Europe because we signed up and followed the green treaties etc and has cost us , while the rest of the world couldn't give a rats backside and continue to pump of pollution at a fraction of the price. Do you believe China will go green if it will help destroy their economy like it has in the UK, from a bunch of green zealot amateur crackpot affluent elitist Liebour politicians !
 
That’s not true at all, the last time the Texas grid was mentioned was in February of 2021 when the freak winter storm that broke Texas climate records came out of nowhere and froze the lubricating oil in our wind turbines (Texas never gets much past freezing normally and the oils need to be thick enough to lubricate at 110+ F, so obviously a freak storm with sustained well below freezing temps does not mix with thick oil), blocked the sun out from our solar farms, and froze the natural gas in our pipelines (again, freak low temperatures that we haven’t seen in 100 years of climate records). It was a perfect storm of rapid temperature change, 100 years temperature lows, etc..
Right now, all the energy infrastructure owners are towards the end of enacting their 5 year infrastructure resiliency plans required by the governor after the freak winter storm mentioned above to make sure it never happens again.
It is true that AZ is more reliable than TX. Arizona is #7 and Texas is #28.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/infrastructure/energy/power-grid-reliability
 
  • Like
Reactions: bit_user
The day rate of 26 seems pretty out of the US norm.
Does that include delivery fees? In Huntington Beach California where I live my electricity bill is split between a delivery fee per kWh and the generation fee per kWh. If I adjust my costs per kWh to include the variation in cost per kWh depending on when the energy is used it costs me 38.9 cents per kWh in October. I would need to find a newer bill, but it has certainly gone up since then. My bill is split nearly 50/50 between a 19 cent per kWh for the "delivery" of the power and the cost to generate it for 19.9 cents per kWh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bit_user
Energy prices are high in Europe because we signed up and followed the green treaties etc and has cost us , while the rest of the world couldn't give a rats backside and continue to pump of pollution at a fraction of the price.
The hole in that plan is that treaty signatories needed to agree to impose tariffs on any countries who aren't signatories to the treaty, in order to eliminate the competitive imbalance created by the treaty.
 
Does that include delivery fees? In Huntington Beach California where I live my electricity bill is split between a delivery fee per kWh
...
My bill is split nearly 50/50 between a 19 cent per kWh for the "delivery" of the power and the cost to generate it for 19.9 cents per kWh.
Wasn't there a private equity firm that used leveraged buyouts to monopolize California's electric grid, like 20 years ago? And then they proceeded to jack up everyone's rates, while under-investing in the grid?

I might have some of the details wrong, but that's the gist I got from an article I read about it, some time ago. That, and the need now to invest lots of money to add more fire protections to the grid might explain why your delivery rate is so high.
 
This is why I never understood TSMC going with Arizona for their new fab sites. Higher energy costs and lack of water resources, 2 very relevant inputs in the chip fab world.
Texas, home to Texas Instruments, Samsung, Tower Semi (formerly VLSI/Philips), Qorvo (formerly Micron), TDK, NXP semi (formerly Motorola), X-Fab (formerly IBM), Skorpios Tech (formerly SEMATECH), as well as numerous smaller/specialty fab companies and fab support companies, has ~40% cheaper electricity and mass amounts of local cheap water. With the likes of the University of Texas, Texas State University, and Texas A&M, there is no shortage of trained labor, so it seems like TSMC made a poor choice in location.
It is overall cost, tax, tax credit, land, water. sewege, regulations, etc.
 
Yes, 2 weeks of no power in February of 2021 really skews that report. I haven’t had a single power outage in 3 years since.
I've never in my life had a power loss of more than 1.5 days. That includes major winter blizzards in Michigan and New York with feet of snow, or record temperature # of back to back days over 110F heat straining the AZ grid in summer. The event in 2021 in Texas is totally unacceptable & shouldn't be easily talked away. It's a major infrastructure failure.

Additional a quick Look also shows many other events in Texas on the list of longest power outages compared to 1 in AZ.

Texas
  • September 13 2008—United States—Hurricane Ike landed in Galveston, Texas and left over two million customers without power in the Greater Houston area. Power to one million homes was restored by day 6 and to two million homes by day 16
  • February 2 2011—United States—In Texas, forced outages at two major coal-fired power plants and high electricity demand due to cold weather caused rolling blackouts affecting up to 3.2 million people.
  • June 9 2019—United States—350,000 people in Dallas County, Texas lost power after a severe thunderstorm downed hundreds of trees across the area. 200,000 remained without power on the evening of June 10 and 16,000 on the afternoon of June 12 restored. 41% of traffic signals in the city of Dallas were affected; 496 were temporarily inoperable and 168 reverted to flashing red signals.
  • January 10 2021—United States—Outages related to snowfall were experienced across eastern Texas, affecting over 100,000 customers
  • February 14–15 and 17–18 2021—United States—A first and second winter storm and associated cold wave caused over five million inhabitants to lose power across the US, with Texas alone having over 4.3 million customers without power
  • July 8–10—2024 United States—Nearly 3 million people in Texas lost power after Hurricane Beryl moved through the state. More than 1.6 million people remained without power two days after the hurricane struck the state.
Arizona
  • September 8–9 2011—United States and Mexico—the 2011 Southwest blackout affected parts of Southern California and Arizona, as well as parts of northwestern Mexico. The failure initiated after maintenance of a 500 kV line brought it offline, and subsequent weaknesses in operations planning and lack of real-time situational awareness at multiple power stations led to cascading outages. Power restoration was generally effective, but also affected by communication issues, with 100% power restoration occurring from 6–12 hours depending on location. Over five million people were affected.
 
Wasn't there a private equity firm that used leveraged buyouts to monopolize California's electric grid, like 20 years ago? And then they proceeded to jack up everyone's rates, while under-investing in the grid?

I might have some of the details wrong, but that's the gist I got from an article I read about it, some time ago. That, and the need now to invest lots of money to add more fire protections to the grid might explain why your delivery rate is so high.
I don't know all of the finer details, however, you cannot find a Californian who likes Southern California Edison (SCE) that don't work for them or profit off their business. I have lived in California all my life using their "services" against my will because they are the only option I am aware of. Here is a SS of my SCE bill for context if you are curious.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bit_user
I've never in my life had a power loss of more than 1.5 days. That includes major winter blizzards in Michigan and New York with feet of snow, or record temperature # of back to back days over 110F heat straining the AZ grid in summer. The event in 2021 in Texas is totally unacceptable & shouldn't be easily talked away. It's a major infrastructure failure.
Personal experience can vary quite a bit. In states that are heavily-wooded, it's going to be a much bigger function of where in the state you live than which state you live in. The big cities almost never have extended outages, but show me one state where some people in heavily-wooded outer-lying suburbs or rural areas don't sometimes go days or a week without power!

It's important to distinguish between grid/infrastructure failures vs. local power delivery. Residential customers might have a lot of power problems, even if a state has zero problems with their power plants, switching stations, and long-haul transmission lines. The more isolated you are, the lower priority you are for crews to repair. The outages affecting the most customers always get fixed first.
 
I've never in my life had a power loss of more than 1.5 days. That includes major winter blizzards in Michigan and New York with feet of snow, or record temperature # of back to back days over 110F heat straining the AZ grid in summer. The event in 2021 in Texas is totally unacceptable & shouldn't be easily talked away. It's a major infrastructure failure.

Additional a quick Look also shows many other events in Texas on the list of longest power outages compared to 1 in AZ.

Texas
  • September 13 2008—United States—Hurricane Ike landed in Galveston, Texas and left over two million customers without power in the Greater Houston area. Power to one million homes was restored by day 6 and to two million homes by day 16
  • February 2 2011—United States—In Texas, forced outages at two major coal-fired power plants and high electricity demand due to cold weather caused rolling blackouts affecting up to 3.2 million people.
  • June 9 2019—United States—350,000 people in Dallas County, Texas lost power after a severe thunderstorm downed hundreds of trees across the area. 200,000 remained without power on the evening of June 10 and 16,000 on the afternoon of June 12 restored. 41% of traffic signals in the city of Dallas were affected; 496 were temporarily inoperable and 168 reverted to flashing red signals.
  • January 10 2021—United States—Outages related to snowfall were experienced across eastern Texas, affecting over 100,000 customers
  • February 14–15 and 17–18 2021—United States—A first and second winter storm and associated cold wave caused over five million inhabitants to lose power across the US, with Texas alone having over 4.3 million customers without power
  • July 8–10—2024 United States—Nearly 3 million people in Texas lost power after Hurricane Beryl moved through the state. More than 1.6 million people remained without power two days after the hurricane struck the state.
Arizona
  • September 8–9 2011—United States and Mexico—the 2011 Southwest blackout affected parts of Southern California and Arizona, as well as parts of northwestern Mexico. The failure initiated after maintenance of a 500 kV line brought it offline, and subsequent weaknesses in operations planning and lack of real-time situational awareness at multiple power stations led to cascading outages. Power restoration was generally effective, but also affected by communication issues, with 100% power restoration occurring from 6–12 hours depending on location. Over five million people were affected.
Come to think of it, I have never had a blackout of longer than a couple hours in my life, but know that some had extended rotating blackouts during Feb 2021 so that everyone had an hour of heating every 4 hours. I agree that it was an act of gross negligence on the power companies who failed to winterize key infrastructure for the winter season, but my point was that the government is now on those power companies like “white on rice on a paper plate with a glass of milk in a snow storm” to make sure they cross their T’s and dot their I’s.

To your other points, Yeah acts of God like hurricanes are some of the most powerful natural events in the world. And Galveston is a natural barrier Island, its geographical purpose is to take the brunt of hurricanes to dissipate some of the storms energy before making proper landfall, so infrastructure being wiped out is a known risk of living there. A little trivia for you, the original Galveston was wiped off the face of the earth by tidal waves, 145 mph sustained winds, and a temporary rise in sea level of 12 ft. during the Great Storm of 1900. It still remains the deadliest natural disaster in U.S. history.

Now, in my opinion, comparing a snow blizzard (most powerful ever recorded in U.S. history had winds of 45 mph) to category 4 hurricanes like Ike and others that hovered over cities with 145 mph winds and dumping a week’s worth of constant rain over the course of a single hour is like comparing lawn mower racing to formula 1.
I will concede that supreme acts of God that interfere with grid reliability are way more frequent in Texas vs Arizona and is a valid reason to choose Arizona over Texas, but my question to you is: is this due to subpar infrastructure or the fact that we as humans do not have the capacity to build resilient grids (including remote rural infrastructure) that can survive the most violent forces on earth without bankrupting entire governments.

All due respect, but I could use the same rhetoric as you to make New York’s infrastructure problems after Hurricane Sandy seem wholly unacceptable for failing due to a category 1 extratropical cyclone, but just like meaningful snow storms of any kind and below zero temperatures are incredibly rare in Texas, hurricanes are incredibly rare in New York.
 
Last edited:
I don't know all of the finer details, however, you cannot find a Californian who likes Southern California Edison (SCE) that don't work for them or profit off their business. I have lived in California all my life using their "services" against my will because they are the only option I am aware of. Here is a SS of my SCE bill for context if you are curious.
Didn’t Enron play games with electrical supply in the early 2000’s by purchasing power at capped rates from California and then rerouting the power to inland states to be sold at high uncapped rates, thus causing artificial power scarcity in California?
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-may-09-fi-scheme9-story.html
 
Does that include delivery fees? In Huntington Beach California where I live my electricity bill is split between a delivery fee per kWh and the generation fee per kWh. If I adjust my costs per kWh to include the variation in cost per kWh depending on when the energy is used it costs me 38.9 cents per kWh in October. I would need to find a newer bill, but it has certainly gone up since then. My bill is split nearly 50/50 between a 19 cent per kWh for the "delivery" of the power and the cost to generate it for 19.9 cents per kWh.

Industrial "Delivery or infrastructure" fees are usually substantially less because they are a single point of delivery. I expect that the numbers quoted are cost of "power" only.
 
Household consumers in Ireland already subsidize the lower rates that Intel pays for it's power here. On top of that, they have sweetheart tax incentives (Ireland is basically a tax haven). It's not up to Ireland to subsidise Intel's business failures too.

Intel is on its knees because of horrible decision making at the top over the past decade or two. Intel leaned hard into short term gains, buying back stocks and pumping up shareholder dividends instead of investing in the future and now they're paying the price. Sure power prices don't help, but it's not the reason Intel is failing. Intel in it's greed ate off its own fingers similar to Boeing.

One could argue that Ireland has "leaned hard" into tax and subsidies competition for international corporations and should know that there certain consequences to that.

If households are paying even worse rates than the corporations then the power authorities are clearly failing both.
 
I don't know all of the finer details, however, you cannot find a Californian who likes Southern California Edison (SCE) that don't work for them or profit off their business. I have lived in California all my life using their "services" against my will because they are the only option I am aware of. Here is a SS of my SCE bill for context if you are curious.

For Cali it didn't look that bad to me. I figure we will all be paying for upgrades to a power system that can either survive high winds and storm or at least fail without causing a fire. Smart grid ect...