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Yup, some 65W mobile part for desktop which will work very well for some systems, with the big boy lineup with Arrow Lake coming later, makes sense.
- Jan 20, 2010
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The ones we know of are 6 P-core + 8 E-core, but I think there could be other compute tiles than the one so far leaked? The 6+8 configuration matches the larger die of the Alder Lake P-series (i.e. laptop-oriented) models. For upper/mid-range laptops, expect core-count parity (except for the extra 2x ultra-efficiency cores, in the SoC tile).
Again, I'm betting they'll go after the lower-end desktops with this. Like the corporate 65W mini-ITX market, for instance. In that case, having only 6 P-cores isn't so much of a liability, especially if Crestmont (the Meteor Lake E-core) increases IPC as much as I expect.
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- Jan 20, 2010
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The thing is that the tiles made on older nodes are a lot cheaper. Depending on the size of its iGPU, I think cost won't necessarily be such an issue.
>>So, yes, I'm saying that we (consumers) won't see Arrow Lake CPUs and supporting boards for desktop in '24.
>Just because you arbitrarily have decided not to believe Intel? Okay. I'll remember that.
What you should remember is that twisting other people's words and belittling them to win petty online argument is sophomoric, and doesn't lend itself to conducive discussion, only to more infantile "I win you lose" arguments. I never said I don't believe Intel will launch Arrow Lake in '24, only that "launch" and "retail availability" (for desktops) are different animals.
And it's not my "arbitrary" opinion. It's an opinion based on the observation that it's very difficult if not impossible for Intel to sell two CPU platform launches to the same audience (the PC desktop) at the same time, or even spaced 3 months apart. They will cannibalize each other, as people will buy one or the other, not both. That's in addition to the difficulty of convincing board partners to launch supporting products (CPUs don't run by themselves) for two different platforms at the same time, knowing cannibalization will happen. The PC industry is geared for annual launches. It will take an extraordinary effort on Intel's part to compel others to basically double their work, for the same amount of revenue.
Jarred said that maybe MTL will be a niche product, implying that it will not have its own product launch, but will instead be part of the Arrow Lake launch. I somewhat disagree (yes, it's an opinion). My SWAG is that MTL will be marginally better than RPL-R on raw perf, hence the delayed desktop launch, but the main sales pitch will be the improved iGPU, and most importantly, its NPU, which would be the first for an x86 chip. MTL will thus merit its own launch, not as a niche part of the Arrow Lake launch.
Of course, it's an opinion, just as everyone else's opinions here. I freely admit, I could be wrong. But you won't see me twisting other people's words to win some stupid argument.
Here's a video clip of the discrete NPU part in the announced Surface Laptop Studio 2. As shown, Windows 11 will explicitly support it, most likely in 23H2 update which we will be able to download by tomorrow (9/26). It's an inference accelerator, and the initial benefit will be for image processing. But I imagine there'll be other Windows functions that take advantage of this capability, coming in Win12 next year. Not sure about other Windows apps, but apps from Adobe and such will likely be the first.
So, yes, NPU is soon be a thing.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhtwFkQqKxM&t=38s
>Just because you arbitrarily have decided not to believe Intel? Okay. I'll remember that.
What you should remember is that twisting other people's words and belittling them to win petty online argument is sophomoric, and doesn't lend itself to conducive discussion, only to more infantile "I win you lose" arguments. I never said I don't believe Intel will launch Arrow Lake in '24, only that "launch" and "retail availability" (for desktops) are different animals.
And it's not my "arbitrary" opinion. It's an opinion based on the observation that it's very difficult if not impossible for Intel to sell two CPU platform launches to the same audience (the PC desktop) at the same time, or even spaced 3 months apart. They will cannibalize each other, as people will buy one or the other, not both. That's in addition to the difficulty of convincing board partners to launch supporting products (CPUs don't run by themselves) for two different platforms at the same time, knowing cannibalization will happen. The PC industry is geared for annual launches. It will take an extraordinary effort on Intel's part to compel others to basically double their work, for the same amount of revenue.
Jarred said that maybe MTL will be a niche product, implying that it will not have its own product launch, but will instead be part of the Arrow Lake launch. I somewhat disagree (yes, it's an opinion). My SWAG is that MTL will be marginally better than RPL-R on raw perf, hence the delayed desktop launch, but the main sales pitch will be the improved iGPU, and most importantly, its NPU, which would be the first for an x86 chip. MTL will thus merit its own launch, not as a niche part of the Arrow Lake launch.
Of course, it's an opinion, just as everyone else's opinions here. I freely admit, I could be wrong. But you won't see me twisting other people's words to win some stupid argument.
Here's a video clip of the discrete NPU part in the announced Surface Laptop Studio 2. As shown, Windows 11 will explicitly support it, most likely in 23H2 update which we will be able to download by tomorrow (9/26). It's an inference accelerator, and the initial benefit will be for image processing. But I imagine there'll be other Windows functions that take advantage of this capability, coming in Win12 next year. Not sure about other Windows apps, but apps from Adobe and such will likely be the first.
So, yes, NPU is soon be a thing.
TerryLaze
Polypheme
- May 9, 2016
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Stress tests will still make them go to the maximum power draw they are capable of, so again unless the new node is somehow worse and can't support the same level of power, results will look the same because they only look at peak power draw under stress on unlimited platforms.
Same tiers of CPUs will have the same max power unless the process refinement makes them be able to draw even more power.
(And of course the 14700 that will have more e-cores will draw more max power)
I think at best, you're looking at an i5 class part on MTL for desktop. At worst, you're looking at borderline sketchy marketing with bga MTL in a few nucs from asus. It makes zero sense to launch MTL when we're getting RPL+ near the end of this year and ARL near the end of next year
- Jan 20, 2010
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LOL. Way to turn this into something it's not.
Let's step back and look at the facts:
- Intel claims Arrow Lake will launch in 2024.
- You claim it won't.
That's all we really know. Your claim is based on no specific knowledge of Arrow Lake or Intel's other forthcoming products. You simply decided not to believe their statement. Sure, you can point to past cases where they haven't lived up to their promises, but we can find more cases where they have. So, ultimately, you picked an interpretation you like, from among the possible interpretations.
We can't settle this until it happens, so I don't see any point in having a big flame war over it.What I've always taken care to say is that they're launching 3 architectures in about 1 year's time. In my book, it makes little difference if we're talking about Arrow Lake-S shipping in November 2024 or January 2025. It's still awfully close.
What's interesting is that Meteor Lake-P is launching a couple months later than Raptor Lake Refresh-S. So, the idea that Arrow Lake-P would launch before Arrow Lake-S seems a little less likely.
The thing is, all of the boards for Raptor-Refresh are basically on the market, already. There's no new chipset for it, so you don't need new boards.
Meanwhile, Intel's plans for Meteor Lake-S to launch this year meant their partner ecosystem already designed and started production of new LGA1851 boards. So, everything you say that's "hard" is already basically done. Let's not forget that Arrow Lake-S is set to use the same LGA1851 socket as Meteor Lake-S is (or was) going to use. So, a lot of that platform work to prepare for Arrow Lake-S is basically done.
Except, the desktop variant was rumored not to feature a big iGPU. That is rumored not to happen until Arrow Lake.
Depends on how you regard their GNA (Gaussian & Neural Accelerator) or AMD's Ryzen AI:
- https://docs.openvino.ai/2023.1/openvino_docs_OV_UG_supported_plugins_GNA.html
- https://www.amd.com/en/products/ryz...MI9OOg6crFgQMVzCuzAB0_LAqwEAAYASAAEgLKFPD_BwE
IMO, those both qualify as NPUs, although Ryzen AI and Meteor Lake's VPU both are in a different class than GNA.
While we're on the subject of Meteor Lake, I want to give a mention to TechTechPotato's YT clip talking about it below. (For long-time PC fans, TechTechPotato is Ian Cutress, a well-respected member of AnandTech before it tanked.)
Ian is excited about MTL, which is one (of many) indication that MTL will be a "big deal" (read: not a niche part).
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CMGdhtDlqI
Here's a video piece from PCWorld interviewing an Intel exec of its strategy for MTL going forward. Mentioned are "Raptor Lake like performance, discrete level GPU, first ever integrated NPU". Speaking as an industry observer, Intel is making way too much marketing noise for MTL to be a niche part.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQW5lfQtLTs
The last segment is probably most relevant to consumers, "how are you selling AI to consumers" and the answer is as expected, "The script is being written in real-time, as the world is still coming to grasp with the possibilities" [paraphrasing]. But she did mention all the obvious uses, image/video processing, collaboration, personal assistant, security, etc.
What I'm personally excited about is to see now the NPU will improve Stable Diffusion performance, along with LLMs-on-PCs. I won't jump on the MTL gen, but probably the gen after (which would be Arrow Lake).
Ian is excited about MTL, which is one (of many) indication that MTL will be a "big deal" (read: not a niche part).
Here's a video piece from PCWorld interviewing an Intel exec of its strategy for MTL going forward. Mentioned are "Raptor Lake like performance, discrete level GPU, first ever integrated NPU". Speaking as an industry observer, Intel is making way too much marketing noise for MTL to be a niche part.
The last segment is probably most relevant to consumers, "how are you selling AI to consumers" and the answer is as expected, "The script is being written in real-time, as the world is still coming to grasp with the possibilities" [paraphrasing]. But she did mention all the obvious uses, image/video processing, collaboration, personal assistant, security, etc.
What I'm personally excited about is to see now the NPU will improve Stable Diffusion performance, along with LLMs-on-PCs. I won't jump on the MTL gen, but probably the gen after (which would be Arrow Lake).
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It's technically interesting, which he always likes, and he's incentivized to generate interest. I don't care about hype - I care about data. Let's wait and see how it actually performs.
It's not going to hold a candle to big dGPUs, so you'd better tamp down those expectations.
grogi
Reputable
- Jun 27, 2021
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The real question about any upgrade is do you have any good reason for it or do you just want to try something new? For example, I just upgraded my trusty old 1070 for 4070 because I wanted to play Cyberpunk 2077. I kept my old CPU and mobo because I got the results I needed. So if it is matter of want instead of need anytime is a good time (as long as you have cash to burn). If you want to balance need vs. want the best time to upgrade is when you start experiencing slowdowns IMHO.
Now that I have read all of this and think about it more, I bet you are right. Meteor Lake was going to be laptop only, but now they say deektop too, but I bet you are right.... No high end 15900k- equivalent. If you build a high end PC for gaming or high-end demanding productivity work, then your choice is build with Raptor Lake refresh now or wait a year for Arrow Lake, which will be the big generational desktop platform change (in many ways). I'm not a gamer but need lots of computational power (and because I want the latest and greatest and it is time for me to build). So I am building in Oct with the Raptor Lake refresh i9 14900K. I can't wait a ytear for Arrow Lake (but I wish I could or would).
You are right of course. But I'm building high end in Oct w Raptor Lake Refresh 14900K and the 4090 GPU. When Arrow Lake comes out for high-end desktop, it will be a big generational platform, power and computational change and do AI much better too. I will regret building now a year from now. But so be it. I don't think Meteor Lake will be high-end desktop. It will be the lower levels of desktop which is great for people not building or buying at the top-end.
>If you want to balance need vs. want the best time to upgrade is when you start experiencing slowdowns IMHO.
As this is an enthusiast's site, we're talking mostly about "wants" here--translated as what's "nice to have"--because frankly, nobody really "needs" more FPS or higher resolution. IMO, "need" is more about commodity functions, like being able to have multiple tabs in your browser, etc. YMMV of course.
As for want/need/whatever, MTL has one functionality that would be very nice to have for me, and that is AV1 encoding. I'm not a big gamer--mostly strat games--and not having to buy a current-gen GPU for that means I can save money with a cheaper card, or just stick with the iGPU. Having both AV1 enc native in CPU, and improved iGPU, are two big pluses for "casual" gamers like me.
I won't touch on the NPU stuff, because AI use cases on PCs are still very nebulous for now. But it's the start of a large trend, and I'm excited to see what's coming down the pipe, not for MTL in particular, but for the gens following it. I've no doubt AMD will be in close lockstep.
My observation from people's "wants" here is that they want fairly traditional PC stuff, basically more raw perf, to power higher gfx fidelity in games. While we will still get that with succeeding CPUs/GPUs, I don't think that will be the main emphasis (read: the main sales hook) going forward, and whatever raw perf gain will be marginal. Nvidia foreshadowed this new emphasis by stating that AI will be a large part of their GPU performance going forward. Intel is of the same mindset for CPUs, and I'm betting AMD isn't any different. We'll see.
As this is an enthusiast's site, we're talking mostly about "wants" here--translated as what's "nice to have"--because frankly, nobody really "needs" more FPS or higher resolution. IMO, "need" is more about commodity functions, like being able to have multiple tabs in your browser, etc. YMMV of course.
As for want/need/whatever, MTL has one functionality that would be very nice to have for me, and that is AV1 encoding. I'm not a big gamer--mostly strat games--and not having to buy a current-gen GPU for that means I can save money with a cheaper card, or just stick with the iGPU. Having both AV1 enc native in CPU, and improved iGPU, are two big pluses for "casual" gamers like me.
I won't touch on the NPU stuff, because AI use cases on PCs are still very nebulous for now. But it's the start of a large trend, and I'm excited to see what's coming down the pipe, not for MTL in particular, but for the gens following it. I've no doubt AMD will be in close lockstep.
My observation from people's "wants" here is that they want fairly traditional PC stuff, basically more raw perf, to power higher gfx fidelity in games. While we will still get that with succeeding CPUs/GPUs, I don't think that will be the main emphasis (read: the main sales hook) going forward, and whatever raw perf gain will be marginal. Nvidia foreshadowed this new emphasis by stating that AI will be a large part of their GPU performance going forward. Intel is of the same mindset for CPUs, and I'm betting AMD isn't any different. We'll see.
Thanks! That was interesting. Tom's reported what they think Intel announced concerning Meteor Lake for the desktop. This guy says no way Meteor Lake will be on the desktop at the top-end level. OK. I'm building with Raptor Lake Refresh and not waiting a year for Arrow Lake. Meteor Lake not happening for high-end desktop. It's either Raptor Lake now or Arrow Lake a year (or more) from now for the high-end desktop build.
This is very interesting. RLR didnt show up in intel public roadmaps. If they release MTL Desktop it in 2024.... when is Arrow lake coming? The will "start production in 2024" but for MTL, it was a year from start production to sales. and Lunar lake? Does anyone believe Intel will deliver 5 client products in 2-3 years (RL, RLR, MTL, ARL, LL) ? So far the only one we can buy is the OG RL.
It would appear Intel has fine with multiple overlapping products which is both very expensive and confuses large end customers. Of course when they drop products and delay them in 2024, we might find there was no overlap to begin with....
It would appear Intel has fine with multiple overlapping products which is both very expensive and confuses large end customers. Of course when they drop products and delay them in 2024, we might find there was no overlap to begin with....
Its not that confusing. We just dont know which of Intels announced products will be cancelled or delayed indefinitely. I am betting Arrow and lunar get delayed/killed/merged/excused. MTL refresh on Intel 4++ will be awesome! Intel had customer slides with RLR for 9 months and never admitted the product existed LOL.
- Jan 20, 2010
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The mix of microarchitectures on the desktop isn't something that I personally can recall. We've seen where they used an older, higher-clocking Skylake-derived CPU for the HX laptop models, however.
The closest they came, in recent history, was to sell Alder Lake dies as lower-end Gen 13 CPUs. However, Raptor Lake really wasn't a different microarchitecture, per se.
If you're referring to the way that Gen 11 (Rocket Lake) and Gen 12 (Alder Lake) both launched in the same calendar year, recall that Comet Lake was launched on August 21st, 2019. Alder Lake was launched in November 4th, 2021. So, that's 26.5 months between them. The anomaly was Rocket Lake, which I'd say was late both because of how ambitious it was and probably pandemic-related delays.
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- Jan 20, 2010
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My take is they had trouble getting Meteor Lake to clock high enough to match/exceed Raptor Lake. That's when they killed off the desktop version and opted to simply refresh Raptor Lake. It must've come as a late surprise, as rumors only surfaced about it several months ago.
However, their board partners were probably upset by this, since they had undertaken the trouble and expense of designing LGA 1851 boards, with the expectation of recouping some of those costs over the next year. So, to throw them a bone (and maybe make good on some contractual obligations, who knows?), Intel forged ahead with a few Meteor Lake-S models in market segments where they could still be competitive. That should be within lower power envelopes, where Alder Lake can't properly stretch its legs.
At the bare minimum, they could probably at least do a respin of it on Intel 3 - especially, since it's only the CPU tile they'd need to redo.
- Oct 6, 2014
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I would agree with that.
Mainly office use but can play some less demanding games.
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