Review Intel Core i9-13900KS Review: The World's First 6 GHz 320W CPU

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As I pointed out, someone primarily interested in optimizing efficiency of lightly threaded workload can't do better than Ryzen 5 7600X.
Oh sure you can do better than the 7600x !
The 5700g is like two times as efficient....
Nobody cares about efficiency on its own if the performance that goes along with it isn't good enough as well.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-9-7950x/24.html
efficiency-singlethread.png
 
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No if they existed HE might have a point.
He equated 320W to being the same as using that for single core.
I just realized you're not even right about what you're claiming*. The Pentium 4 had HT, which would've been needed to hit max power. So, indeed we are talking specifically about multithreaded workloads! And that the Cinebench scores you highlighted were single-threaded, not single-core.

* That distinction is only meaningful to you. Everyone else can surely see your red herring for what it is.

The 5700g is like two times as efficient....
Right. I forgot about the G.
 
I just realized you're not even right about what you're claiming*. The Pentium 4 had HT, which would've been needed to hit max power. So, indeed we are talking specifically about multithreaded workloads! And that the Cinebench scores you highlighted were single-threaded, not single-core.

* That distinction is only meaningful to you. Everyone else can surely see your red herring for what it is.


Right. I forgot about the G.
Sure, HT will get the 13900k from 32W to 320W ,ok.
 
"Microsoft recently advised gamers to disable several security features to boost gaming performance. As such, we disabled secure boot, virtualization support, and fTPM/PTT for maximum performance. You can find further hardware details in the table at the end of the article. "

Not just no, hell no. If you can't strike a balance between security and efficient processing you lean towards security. Gaming is second to not risking your network and integrity. This processor has oodles of power, the impact of security of this basic level should minuscule.
 
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This processor has oodles of power, the impact of security of this basic level should minuscule.
I agree with your priorities, but some security features affect the performance of syscalls that are needed to interact with the GPU, for instance. Adding any latency to your critical path can definitely have an impact on framerates. Especially in the era of multi-100 Hz displays.
 
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In the current power draw and throttling situation, taking into account that the chips are good, it may be possible that we could get stable original clock with lower voltage. That would lead to a lower power draw, lower temperature and less ther7mal throttling. In turn, it may lead to a/ better performance. Hence, for many workloads, undervolting may reduce temperatures and power consumption and increase the performance... The plundervolt was due to causing instability in the processor, so setting the undervolting should require administrator's privileges but if the processor is fully stable, there is no vulnerability. Undervolting is als/o different than limiting the total power draw. To my knowledge, limiting the total power keeps the voltage curve unaltered, while undervolting affects the whole curve, hence for given power draw, we have more computing power.
Unfortunately, locking the CPUs to the default voltage curve via BIOS or firmware or microcode update or some other low level crap, pushed over Win update with a vague description and required install, was the way they went with mitigating Plundervolt. The conversation probably went something like "if someone is doing plundervolting maybe they kidnapped and tortured the admin and pwned everything." Something like that. iirc, this was before all the spectre/meltdown stuff came to lig/ht, so it was easier to cover up.
By the time Kaby Lake came around, Intel had an EXTREMELY optimized 14nm process due to years of screwing up the 10nm shrink, so I was able to drop the voltage curve on my 7th gen i7 laptop by -0.230v with no stability issues and huge benefits to cooling and the availability of turbo boost time. I couldn't even go over the PL1 limit with it running like that. One day it suddenly started overheating and a little research taught me all about this well thought out solution. My favorite part, event if I had made it unstable, the way Plundervolt worked meant that it never had any effect on my attack surface to begin with.
The mitigation itself was an attack that fixed something that wasn't broke. It felt analogous to being told my car is hard to see behind cause the mirror might be kinda iffy and ending up with a mandatory, legally enforced recall that installs a giant mirror that blocks 75% of the view out the front. Maybe there are people that can't turn around and drive their cars all out in reverse gear, but I'm not one of them.
I wish I knew how to undervolt for craptops. The problem is that I've never seen a craptop BIOS that allows that level of customisation. All of the ones I've owned w8ere more or less locked into an "as-is" mode.
I used a techpowerup program called throttlestop. It let you adjust voltage curves in real time for CPU core, ring bus, IMC, GPU, and an uncore or something. Even though my voltages got locked down from Plyndervolt mitigation, I still use it as it lets you adjust the Enhanced Speedstep setting (effects how aggresive the CPU frequency clocks to vs. the load its under, allows you to bias towards lower speeds when on battery to save power or higher speeds to keep the speeds up for games and stuff) as well as change the turbo boost timer duration, allowing more time under boost, as much as you may want until the CPU throttles from thermals. The program was abandoned quite a while ago so it's kind of a toss up on whether it'll work with newer systems, but it's free so you can always try and see.
"Microsoft re. cently advised gamers to disable several security features to boost gaming performance. As such, we disabled secure boot, virtualization support, and fTPM/PTT for maximum performance. You can find further hardware details in the, table at the end of the article. "

Not just no, hell no. If you can't strike a balance between security and efficient processing you lean towards security. Gaming is second to not risking your network and integrity. This processor has oodles of power, the impact of security of this basic level should minuscule.
It kinda seems like that sort of thing would be better to look at on a case by case basis. For corporate environments, yes, security, that's a no brainer. I'm not so sure secure boot or TPMs would have too much impact, but I know that with VBS, the memory integrity crap can have a pretty decent impact (although it can be killed without disabling virtualization, but VBS also has other small hits). For someone playing games competively, in twitch response games especially, every bit of performance can make a difference. If that computer is dedicated to gaming then there really isn't data to be taken or lost for real that won't come back with wiping the disks and reinstalls. Pretty much all of that is gonna be saved online. Add some proper network isolation to keep it from talking to other stuff in the LAN and your main network will be reasonably safe. I'm sure I'm over simplifying, but my point is gaming can lead to counterintuitive configuration needs compared to the security-preferential needs of most stuff.
 
I used a techpowerup program called throttlestop. It let you adjust voltage curves in real time for CPU core, ring bus, IMC, GPU, and an uncore or something. ... I still use it as it lets you adjust the Enhanced Speedstep setting (effects how aggresive the CPU frequency clocks to vs. the load its under, allows you to bias towards lower speeds when on battery to save power or higher speeds to keep the speeds up for games and stuff)
Windows 10 has settings for this. I haven't explored them in detail, as I just crank my work laptop to the lowest power settings to keep its fan noise down. That utility sounds more sophisticated, but to a degree probably not needed by most.

If that computer is dedicated to gaming then there really isn't data to be taken or lost for real that won't come back with wiping the disks and reinstalls. Pretty much all of that is gonna be saved online. Add some proper network isolation to keep it from talking to other stuff in the LAN and your main network will be reasonably safe.
If you browse the web, particularly some of the more shady sites, then you probably shouldn't disable security mitigations. It's not only the data on disk that you need to worry about. If you login to your online banking, work accounts, etc. from the same machine, you risk your authentication being stolen.
 
That's a red herring, as it was still during the era of single-core CPUs. You're spinning like a top.


Depending on which benchmark you cherry-pick. The thing is, if you really care about single-threaded efficiency, then you'd probably get a smaller CPU, like the 7700X or the 7600X.
efficiency-singlethread.png

And if you care about multi-thread efficiency, then Intel simply has no answer for AMD:
efficiency-multithread.png
I guess that's why they're losing so much datacenter marketshare to AMD.
Yeah, that R9-5950X is maybe the best all-around CPU that AMD has ever put out. Steve Burke called the R9-5950X "The most efficient CPU that we've ever tested." and that's saying something! 👍
 
Yeah, that R9-5950X is maybe the best all-around CPU that AMD has ever put out. Steve Burke called the R9-5950X "The most efficient CPU that we've ever tested." and that's saying something! 👍
A clock-limited 7950X would beat it on efficiency. AMD even said as much, during their launch material. This chart compares the performance of the two, when restricted to the same power levels:
 
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As long as you only look at what AMD tells you to look at...
Anything based on one single app is useless information except for only that one single app.
If you want to do more than just that one thing on your PC you will have to look for more numbers.
Uv6hcKy.jpg
 
A clock-limited 7950X would beat it on efficiency. AMD even said as much, during their launch material. This chart compares the performance of the two, when restricted to the same power levels:
SoC_24.png
Yeah I saw that, but lately AMD has been playing fast and loose with the facts in their presentations, something that has been pissing me off to no end so I took it with a grain of salt and when nobody else said the same thing, I dismissed it. It's a shame really because AMD was doing so well by just being honest between 2017 and 2021 but then the Ryzen and Radeon 7000-series were released and all that goodwill they earned went out the window.

I just don't know why Steve Burke didn't try that in his testing... Oh well, if that's actually true (not doubting you, just doubting the AMD marketers for obvious reasons) then that's great. I honestly think that this stupid game that AMD has been forced to play because Intel is willing to sell CPUs that pull >250W on their own is detrimental to us as consumers.

I never thought that any CPU would ever be more ridiculous in its power draw and heat than the AMD FX-9590... and then along came the i7-13700K and the i9-13900K, both of which draw more power and run hotter than even the FX-9590. That's a crown that you don't want to have, eh? 😆
 
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Yeah I saw that, but lately AMD has been playing fast and loose with the facts in their presentations,
In this case, the problem is that their 7950X doesn't run in the same power envelope as the 5950X, so it's a somewhat fictional comparison. Where it will become real is in the Zen 4-based laptop products. You'll see those pull well ahead of comparably hot Ryzen 5000 laptops with the same core count.

then the Ryzen and Radeon 7000-series were released and all that goodwill they earned went out the window.
It's just because they raised the power limits of AM5. Take a look at one of the many articles that benchmarked the 7950X in Eco mode. It's a very efficient CPU, you just tame its power consumption.

That said, DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 both add a tax, and this is where the laptops should benefit from using LPDDR5 and having fewer PCIe lanes.

On a related note, check out the 65 W 7700. It beats the 5950X and the 105 W 7700X is only 3.3% faster (stock):
 
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In this case, the problem is that their 7950X doesn't run in the same power envelope as the 5950X, so it's a somewhat fictional comparison. Where it will become real is in the Zen 4-based laptop products. You'll see those pull well ahead of comparably hot Ryzen 5000 laptops with the same core count.


It's just because they raised the power limits of AM5. Take a look at one of the many articles that benchmarked the 7950X in Eco mode. It's a very efficient CPU, you just tame its power consumption.

That said, DDR5 and PCIe 5.0 both add a tax, and this is where the laptops should benefit from using LPDDR5 and having fewer PCIe lanes.

On a related note, check out the 65 W 7700. It beats the 5950X and the 105 W 7700X is only 3.3% faster (stock):
relative-performance-cpu.png
Well, you've got me convinced and I'm glad to see it. I had been thinking that we've been moving backwards in the efficiency department and it's good to see that's not what has been happening. Thanks for that! 👍
 
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Well, you've got me convinced and I'm glad to see it. I had been thinking that we've been moving backwards in the efficiency department
In a very real sense, you're exactly right to criticize the race to higher power limits in a scramble to take the performance crown. Because of it, a lot of people will be burning extra power and getting very little in return for it. It's sad to see.