News Intel hit with lawsuit over $32 billion loss, shareholders complain company hid problems

[Admin]

The semiconductor giant is being sued by one group of investors, saying that it made "false or misleading statements", which inflated its stock price.

Intel hit with lawsuit over $32 billion loss, shareholders complain company hid problems : Read more

 

[Taslios]

.... I really thought about putting a short call on INTL back at the end of July.... alas...

So much mud is going to be thrown at Intel over the next few months. Lunar lake and Arrow lake need to be flat out a amazing.

I do not want an AMD monopoly...

 

[Makaveli]

.... I really thought about putting a short call on INTL back at the end of July.... alas...

So much mud is going to be thrown at Intel over the next few months. Lunar lake and Arrow lake need to be flat out a amazing.

I do not want an AMD monopoly...

AMD cannot supply enough to the market to have a monopoly.

 

[Taslios]

AMD cannot supply enough to the market to have a monopoly.

Nvidia is basically a monopoly and they manufacture at the same location as AMD.

If Intel implodes, AMD will be able to set their price and buy TSMC fabs.. (or pay them for exclusive use/ increased fab construction)

Either way intel's struggles are not a good thing for the industry.

 

[tennis2]

Toms:

combined with a 99% drop in revenue in 2Q24 led to a $1.61 billion net loss

Reuters (source):

Intel also posted a $1.61 billion second-quarter net loss, as revenue fell 1% to $12.83 billion

Math is hard.

 

[Makaveli]

Nvidia is basically a monopoly and they manufacture at the same location as AMD.

If Intel implodes, AMD will be able to set their price and buy TSMC fabs.. (or pay them for exclusive use/ increased fab construction)

Either way intel's struggles are not a good thing for the industry.

Nvidia's monopoly is far bigger than just manufacturing there are other factors.

1. They are a much larger company bringing in more revenue
2. CUDA Software lock in for AI
3. Marketing and brand loyaly when you have people that will pitch a tent infront of bestbuy for a new gpu launch.

AMD cannot afford to buy TSMC nor would that purchase be allowed.

Remove TSMC from both AMD and Nvidia they go back to samsung and everythign continues on for NV. AMD would be in a much worse position.

 

[jp7189]

Nvidia is basically a monopoly and they manufacture at the same location as AMD.

If Intel implodes, AMD will be able to set their price and buy TSMC fabs.. (or pay them for exclusive use/ increased fab construction)

Either way intel's struggles are not a good thing for the industry.

Nvidia dominates a relatively small market (by volume) compared to the much larger general CPU market. Also, fabs are Hella expensive. From a market cap pov, tsmc is many times larger than AMD. Zero chance of a buyout. That said, Intel is now manufacturing much of it silicon at tsmc (never thought I'd see the day), so there's an argument to be made that in some markets Intel now has the same volume limits that AMD does.

 

[Taslios]

Nvidia dominates a relatively small market (by volume) compared to the much larger general CPU market. Also, fabs are Hella expensive. From a market cap pov, tsmc is many times larger than AMD. Zero chance of a buyout. That said, Intel is now manufacturing much of it silicon at tsmc (never thought I'd see the day), so there's an argument to be made that in some markets Intel now has the same volume limits that AMD does.

and I'm not saying they will be able to supply the market.

But intel is in danger of being split up, or unlikely but possible out right collapse if Lunar/Arrow Lake have issues or the extent of the lawsuits throw enough mud.

AMD without any real direct competition in the CPU market will be disastrous for many many reasons... not only that they cannot actually supply the needed number of processors.

 

[jp7189]

and I'm not saying they will be able to supply the market.

But intel is in danger of being split up, or unlikely but possible out right collapse if Lunar/Arrow Lake have issues or the extent of the lawsuits throw enough mud.

AMD without any real direct competition in the CPU market will be disastrous for many many reasons... not only that they cannot actually supply the needed number of processors.

Agreed. I very much want to see Intel turn it around. They need another Keller hail mary. His last stint was barely enough to give them a lifeline. Rumors of internal politics and exec egos apparently limited his effectiveness. Until those get out of the way, I fear Intel is screwed.

 

[Taslios]

Agreed. I very much want to see Intel turn it around. They need another Keller hail mary. His last stint was barely enough to give them a lifeline. Rumors of internal politics and exec egos apparently limited his effectiveness. Until those get out of the way, I fear Intel is screwed.

Intel doesn't know how not to be #1 and their ego may be a weight to heavy to bear... lot of the old school upper management probably need to go for them to have a prayer. I'm not sure if Pat is part of the problem, or if he was just too late to the rudder to save the ship from the storm thrashed rocks.

 

[Vanderlindemedia]

AMD spun off their own fabs years ago. On paper now they are a designer of chips, but not a manufactor. Intel on the other hand is having fabs but battles with tech advancements compared to TSMC. It's this that will f up intel for some time to come.

 

[DS426]

Nvidia is basically a monopoly and they manufacture at the same location as AMD.

If Intel implodes, AMD will be able to set their price and buy TSMC fabs.. (or pay them for exclusive use/ increased fab construction)

Either way intel's struggles are not a good thing for the industry.

nVidia is effectively a monopoly in the hardware-side of AI, yes. Call it AI GPU's or AI accelerators, but they're being investigated for exactly this problem that's obviously not good for the industry and to consumers.

AMD went thru worse dire straits from trying to recovery cash from the ATI acquisition and the Bulldozer failure. The optics here look worse because it's Intel, but they do have good things in the pipeline, including their fabs and leading-edge node production that are coming online, even if slower than what Pat and the company made it sound like. Intel basically went all in, so the next 1-2 years will show if it pays off or not -- not right now with Meteor Lake being nothing ground-breaking and Raptor Lake & RL Refresh being powerful but unstable chips.

The real f-up is that Intel is draining 15% of its workforce to see a short-term win in the near future but ending up struggling again in 4-5 years. I don't know how such a massive company with so much data analytics and raw workforce horsepower let's things bubble so much and then sheds 15% all at once rather than more gradually, just as some of the other big tech overlords began layoffs in late 2023 and early 2024. They are either mad or geniuses... or I suppose more realistically somewhere in between, but my opinion today is more mad than anything. And yes, the old guard at Intel has ego problems and other issues that are still projecting out today but have been for several years with the 14nm ++++ / 10nm execution failure and general chip performance stagnation failure.

Anyways, Intel's struggles aren't necessarily "not a good thing for the industry" because humbling a power player can be good to improve the competitiveness of #2 and #3 and #4 and... well, those don't exist in x86 so! If the struggle isn't too severe, it means closer to 50/50 competition, which I think is what we're all hoping for (except for the die-hard fanbois). I certainly don't want to see Intel crash TOO hard but simply go thru what we call in economics as a hard correction. I honestly think they are doing this today, and will end up ok-ish in the near time. Again, it's the long-term that looks more scary, although I don't doubt that some of it is necessary to shed excess weight and become a more nimble company.

 

[TheSecondPower]

I can't help but think that at the very least some of Intel's problems stem from Gelsinger pivoting Intel too quickly. Intel should certainly be a foundry provider but building tens of billions of dollars-worth of new fabs for external customers before first getting fabs that are competitive enough to meet the needs of Intel's own products seems a little pre-emptive. Intel simply didn't have the money for this, and bleeding talent out to pay for it is going to be costly later.

Then again, no matter what Intel did, having fabs that are trailing the competition was never going to work out for Intel. It worked a few years ago because everyone was at home using computers and online services. Today the economy has slowed and AMD has products produced at a better foundry. Intel's finances today were going to look bad no matter what.

Quarter 3 won't be much better. The only new product shipping the whole quarter is Sierra Forest, and its Crestmont cores aren't the best technology Intel has. But together with Emerald Rapids it does make Intel's server offerings a lot stronger.

Quarter 4 could be alright if Granite Rapids is competitive. Lunar Lake should help too but probably won't bring in nearly as much revenue as Granite Rapids. A Meteor Lake refresh moving from Intel 4 to Intel 3 could help maintain Intel's position in the rest of the laptop market.

Quarter 1 2025 Intel should have competitive products across the whole lineup, with Sierra Forest being the weakest, and Arrow Lake being potentially the strongest. But Q1 is a slow quarter and if the economy doesn't pick up then Intel will have a very small pie to sell to.

I don't watch stocks very closesly but I believe the entire stock market took a huge hit this week. That's certainly not helping Intel's stock value.

 

[TheSecondPower]

With all the employees Intel has, why is Granite Rapids just now coming out with Redwood Cove cores? Those hit the market in December and are similar to Raptor Cove which came out in 2022 and the last major architecture update was Golden Cove in late 2021. Lion Cove is "launching" next month in Lunar Lake; surely with all the people Intel has, Lion Cove could've been ported to Intel 3 for Granite Rapids? AMD's Zen 5 is coming to servers on TSMC's not-the-latest-node N4B, so Intel will be competing for the first time in some time on a similar-performing node but with a really old microarchitecture.

 

[rluker5]

Intel having financial difficulties while, and due to increasing fab and packaging capacity on more advanced nodes is bad timing. If they can't afford the fabs they won't do well. As Intel goes, goes all of modern western world lithography. With all of its economic and military implications. There is only TSMC and a poorer performing Samsung left. Consumer CPUs will go to $1k in AMD's hands and GPUs will go as high as the Nvidia/AMD duopoly wants. TSMC probably won't go to High NA until 2035 and are already hitting a wall similar to Intel's 14nm DUV one.

Might be better for tech consumers (AMD consumers included) if China invaded Taiwan and their fabs got sanctioned than if Intel had to become a shell of what it is today.

 

[hotaru251]

If Intel implodes

wont ever happen.
Intel has insane amounts of $. they could cut the company in half and STILL be ahead of AMD in production of chips.

buy TSMC fabs.. (or pay them for exclusive use/ increased fab construction)

AMD already TSMC's 3rd largest customer...Intel is the 7th :|
TSMC is the top dog in who gets what and at what price. They are arguably the most important company on planet atm. (as they responsible for 90% of high end chip production)

But intel is in danger of being split up, or unlikely but possible out right collapse if Lunar/Arrow Lake have issues or the extent of the lawsuits throw enough mud.

becasue of this issue?
This isnt even the worst its been for them and they remain market dominator.

There is no risk of being split up nor collapsing. Biggest thing that could happen is changing up leadership & big fines.

13/14th gen cpu issue is not their biggest drama.
Shareholders suing them? again thats due to shareholders #1 goal: profit & losing investment ofc they would try to profit another way.
Intel wont disappear.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

Intel stock at $20, Nvidia could buy them with their loose change…

 

[Taslios]

wont ever happen.
Intel has insane amounts of $.
Intel wont disappear.

Sears, Bear Sterns, RCA, Westinghouse, GE, Kodak, Blockbuster, Pan Am... not all of these are gone... but none of them are what they once were.

I said their issues were unlikely to lead to collapse... but it is not impossible. Intel has been in the downturn for nearly a decade now...

 

[Taslios]

Intel stock at $20, Nvidia could buy them with their loose change…

FTC would never allow it and honestly the x86 license isn't even that valuable anymore. The Fabs are worth a lot of money, but if their Fabs were as good as they would like them to be Intel wouldn't be using TSMC while their own fabs are underutilized.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

FTC would never allow it and honestly the x86 license isn't even that valuable anymore. The Fabs are worth a lot of money, but if their Fabs were as good as they would like them to be Intel wouldn't be using TSMC while their own fabs are underutilized.

If you take the x86 licence and the fabs aside, what is left? Serious question. Their GPUs have a small amount of traction but not much..

 

[logainofhades]

FTC wouldn't allow it, but Nvidia has the cash to do it. I do hope AMD capitalizes on Intel's missteps to increase their market share, to where there is more of a 50/50 split, and Intel gets back on track. Lately it seems like nothing but bad news for them.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

I agree, parity would be a good thing all round

 

[thestryker]

This lawsuit specifically is just sour grapes from investors as the information has been out there and they already realigned financial reporting with regards to the fabs.

The real f-up is that Intel is draining 15% of its workforce to see a short-term win in the near future but ending up struggling again in 4-5 years. I don't know how such a massive company with so much data analytics and raw workforce horsepower let's things bubble so much and then sheds 15% all at once rather than more gradually, just as some of the other big tech overlords began layoffs in late 2023 and early 2024.

This move is almost entirely about wall street and has nothing to do with the health of the company. It's about cost cutting to make the investors gamblers feel better about spending money on Intel. There's been a cadre of investors who have wanted Intel to ditch fabs for around a decade due to how much short term money that would mean for them irrelevant of what that would mean for the long term health of the company or industry.

I can't help but think that at the very least some of Intel's problems stem from Gelsinger pivoting Intel too quickly. Intel should certainly be a foundry provider but building tens of billions of dollars-worth of new fabs for external customers before first getting fabs that are competitive enough to meet the needs of Intel's own products seems a little pre-emptive. Intel simply didn't have the money for this, and bleeding talent out to pay for it is going to be costly later.

It had to happen because Intel needed volume and this is the only way to do that. Historically Intel hasn't had a ton of extra fab space due to node retirement. That and the fact that certain nodes are staying around much longer means they needed raw capacity to continue volume manufacture while rolling out new nodes. Look at how much they had to spend to get MTL volume because the only two fabs that could do it were Oregon and Ireland and Oregon is the primary development fab and needed to shift to Intel 3 and 20A. This is the sort of thing they cannot have happen to be successful long term.

There's also "investor" class absolutely hating capital investment so this was always going to be a problem hence why they've cut the joint ownership deals on some fabs.

 

[dimar]

Isn't it good in a way that the stock is going down? Other people can buy it, while it's low, with hopes that it will go up again at some point when new products are released.

 

[Taslios]

If you take the x86 licence and the fabs aside, what is left? Serious question. Their GPUs have a small amount of traction but not much..

that's kind of my point. Intel is a huge company that has sold off most of the assets that they can easily sell.