News Intel's latest CPUs run so hot that delidding has become common — EKWB introduces world's first AIO liquid cooler designed for delidded CPUs

[Admin]

EKWB has developed a brand new AIO specifically for delidded LGA-1700 coolers. The new cooler was designed specifically for the flood of new PC users that are delidding Intel's latest 12th, 13th and 14th Gen Core CPUs.

Intel's latest CPUs run so hot that delidding has become common — EKWB introduces world's first AIO liquid cooler designed for delidded CPUs : Read more

 

[hotaru251]

it is funny how Intel has the thermal issues when AM5 was designed to run at 95c basically forever.

Intel really needs to stop thinking more voltage is the answer ;/

 

[ingtar33]

14th gen is basically just an overclocked 13th gen, which was an overclocked 12th gen.

 

[TerryLaze]

it is funny how Intel has the thermal issues when AM5 was designed to run at 95c basically forever.

Intel really needs to stop thinking more voltage is the answer ;/

This isn't about a thermal issue, it's about the CPU having clock headroom when you can deal with a lot of power/heat.
Extreme overlockers don't want to thermal throttle, and intel at 100 and amd at 95 thermal throttle, the only difference is that intel has headroom to be pushed higher while ryzen not so much.

 

[PEnns]

This isn't about a thermal issue, it's about the CPU having clock headroom when you can deal with a lot of power/heat.
Extreme overlockers don't want to thermal throttle, and intel at 100 and amd at 95 thermal throttle, the only difference is that intel has headroom to be pushed higher while ryzen not so much.

I doubt Intel designed those CPUs with overclockers in mind to begin with.

I doubt Intel loses any sleep at night worrying over a tiny percentage of its clients, extreme overclockers or whoever.

 

[TerryLaze]

I doubt Intel designed those CPUs with overclockers in mind to begin with.

I doubt Intel loses any sleep at night worrying over a tiny percentage of its clients, extreme overclockers or whoever.

Of course they don't, intel designed them for 125/150W TDP with a max of 320W for the KS model....
but the CPUs can handle a lot more than that and some people want to get there and that's why others have to do the delidding and/or direct die cooling.

 

[hotaru251]

This isn't about a thermal issue,

the only difference is that intel has headroom to be pushed higher while ryzen not so much.

yes its a thermal issue becasue intel tosses insane voltage to hit that crazy high speed. intel voltages are crazy as you gain so little for the scary amount of voltage extra.

Theres a point where no matter the cooling the voltage is goign to generate heat faster than it can be cooled.

 

[Johnpombrio]

One of the reasons why my last three Intel CPUs were i7 instead of i9. Air cooling works and is quiet. No overclock ether, just not worth the bother any longer as the CPUs are already factory overclocked.

 

[TerryLaze]

yes its a thermal issue becasue intel tosses insane voltage to hit that crazy high speed. intel voltages are crazy as you gain so little for the scary amount of voltage extra.

Theres a point where no matter the cooling the voltage is goign to generate heat faster than it can be cooled.

Those are not intel voltages, they are mobo voltages.
Just because they don't cause the CPUs to explode, like they do on amd, so intel has no reason to do anything about them, doesn't mean that they are intel voltages.

 

[mac_angel]

not so sure about "common". The tools for it aren't very easy to find; at least not in Canada.

 

[jp7189]

it is funny how Intel has the thermal issues when AM5 was designed to run at 95c basically forever.

Intel really needs to stop thinking more voltage is the answer ;/

Yes, but then what is the answer for Intel to stay competitive with AMD? Voltage is all they right now.

 

[Ogotai]

CPUs to explode, like they do on amd

care to back that up with proof, or are you just spreading more anti amd BS again, terry ????

if intel keeps having to put more power into their cpus to remain competive they are the ones that will have exploding cpus....

they are intel voltages, they are the ones allowing motherboard makers to run their cpus as they do, there fore it IS intel doing it, plain and simple, regardless how you try to twist and spin it around.
if i bought an intel cpu and it fried because of how much power they are putting, or allowing, their cpus to use, damn right i will blame intel.

Yes, but then what is the answer for Intel to stay competitive with AMD? Voltage is all they right now.

they only one they have left, time for a brand new Gen 1 arch.. face it, intels cpus are out of gas now, they have nothing left but to keep upping the voltage.

 

[thestryker]

EKWB put out the LGA 1700 AIO back in January so that part is nothing new. Their press release was actually about new custom blocks for delidded AM5 and LGA 1700.

14th gen is basically just an overclocked 13th gen, which was an overclocked 12th gen.

14th Gen isn't an overclocked 13th Gen it's just the same silicon with a better bin. Now the differences between ADL and RPL is much deeper than that as it has an updated IMC and different cache configurations which make them a fair bit different. This would have been considered a "Tock" from their "Tick-Tock" release era.

it is funny how Intel has the thermal issues when AM5 was designed to run at 95c basically forever.

Intel really needs to stop thinking more voltage is the answer ;/

Delidding has nothing to do with high voltage and everything to do with the sheer amount of power people are putting through the CPU and eliminating the thermal resistance from the IHS. Intel's CPUs all officially cap at 253W and the 14900KS has a 320W profile available. You do not need a direct die cooling solution to run either of these settings though you'd need a very good cooler to run the latter.

The high voltage curve tends to come into play when someone has good cooling, has unlimited power on but otherwise stock settings. Intel didn't design the CPUs with unlimited power in mind or else the default curve might have been tuned better.

Those are not intel voltages, they are mobo voltages.

That's generally not accurate it is actually Intel's voltage curve, but the fault is the motherboard settings. Effectively because the CPU is never hitting the power or current limits it'll keep asking for more voltage.

not so sure about "common". The tools for it aren't very easy to find; at least not in Canada.

EK sells their own delidding tool, but it's rather expensive.

 

[hotaru251]

Those are not intel voltages, they are mobo voltages.

....intel gives MB vendors the requriements for their product.

please...lets see them make their own MB and see voltages required to hit these speeds.

doesnt matter if its MB or intel choosing the voltages in the end the CPU requires high voltage to hit the speeds stated BY intel.

Yes, but then what is the answer for Intel to stay competitive with AMD? Voltage is all they right now.

accept not being the top for 1 or 2 generations and re-do your stuff. AMD went from irrelevant to dominant by changing their stuff.
Long term its beneficial as you are going to have to pivot to something other than voltage pumping eventually.

 

[rluker5]

It seems like delidding was more common in the Haswell era 10 years ago.
They had that "pigeon poop" back then. I personally got 300 mhz of thermal headroom for my 4770k. I've delidded all sorts of socket 1150 chips. Not worth the hassle with 1700 imo.

 

[rluker5]

....intel gives MB vendors the requriements for their product.

please...lets see them make their own MB and see voltages required to hit these speeds.

doesnt matter if its MB or intel choosing the voltages in the end the CPU requires high voltage to hit the speeds stated BY intel.

The CPU's don't need the voltages that are off of the volt curve to hit those speeds and they don't need unlimited power or over 1.5v on the memory controller in OS when BIOS claims 1.3v. But the motherboard manufacturers do that anyways.

If I left settings the way Asus intends I would have a hot, throttling CPU. Perhaps you have lost sight of the existence of base clock, boost clock, turbo 2,3, TVB and in the case of AMD "up to" clocks. Maximum boost under all loading conditions is guaranteed by neither Intel nor AMD.

The motherboard makers give extra juice to have the best performing, highest memory speed, etc mobos and push it more with their higher tiers. Intel isn't making them default to non spec power limits or voltages. Otherwise they would all match in performance and Intel would have different numbers in the CPU specs.

 

[TerryLaze]

care to back that up with proof, or are you just spreading more anti amd BS again, terry ????

It happened less than a year ago, you can't even pretend like you forgot about it.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/a...use-identified-expo-and-soc-voltages-to-blame

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiTngvvD5dI&t=898s&ab_channel=GamersNexus

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arDqhxM8Wog&t=2s&ab_channel=der8auerEN

 

[TerryLaze]

doesnt matter if its MB or intel choosing the voltages in the end the CPU requires high voltage to hit the speeds stated BY intel.

Yeah, please go ahead and show us what speeds are being stated by intel.

 

[craigss]

some of the responses on here make no sense, the article starts by stating the issue is intel temps and the fact folks are regressing 20 years and delidding the chips to make them more usable, this is a fact not a speculation, the fact a company such as EKWB has spent the time to research and then produce and sell a product specifically for this "niche" shows its a lot more common than is being suggested by the Intel misinformation fan boys, (for the record I think AMD badly designed AM5 at 95c), the fact is intel simply cannot compete with AMD unless they use massive amounts of power, power equals heat hence the need to delid and cool the CPU more effectively.
Intel right now simply has no answer to AMD when it comes to power usage vs performance, they are running headlong back to the goal of maximum FPS and to hell with the power/heat

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WRF2bDl-u8

 

[rluker5]

some of the responses on here make no sense, the article starts by stating the issue is intel temps and the fact folks are regressing 20 years and delidding the chips to make them more usable, this is a fact not a speculation, the fact a company such as EKWB has spent the time to research and then produce and sell a product specifically for this "niche" shows its a lot more common than is being suggested by the Intel misinformation fan boys, (for the record I think AMD badly designed AM5 at 95c), the fact is intel simply cannot compete with AMD unless they use massive amounts of power, power equals heat hence the need to delid and cool the CPU more effectively.
Intel right now simply has no answer to AMD when it comes to power usage vs performance, they are running headlong back to the goal of maximum FPS and to hell with the power/heat

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WRF2bDl-u8

The issue is Intel temps in all core benchmarks and some relatively rare applications where, in the case of all core benchmarks some enthusiasts will go to extremes to get the best performance.

Intel's power consumption excess isn't so black and white, there are other factors in play like:

1. Intel 12-14th scale well with volts at high frequencies while AMD ones do not - hence the motivation for use of higher volts for more frequency by consumers.

2. Intel chips are far more durable in regards to how many volts and how much power they can take - hence the lack of deterrent for adding more volts and power.

3. Intel 12-14th gen chips are still coolable while using 2-3x as much power as Ryzen CPUs and most consumers care more about temps than power consumption. For example: https://www.boringtextreviews.com/2...i9-13900k-not-as-great-with-amds-ryzen-7700x/ max 298W with 13900k vs 126.5W max with a 7700X.

With most fan curves higher temps mean louder PC. I believe more care more about the volume of their fans over the power consumed by their CPU. This is a good motivation to undertake the more risky and difficult delidding of Ryzen CPUs which is also happening.

Also it is notable that this situation may not last much longer. Intel 12th -14th gen are still made on DUV lithography while AMD hasn't used DUV since they started having TSMC make their CPUs instead of Global Foundry. DUV is older and works well for large nodes like 22nm, but is not suited for 10nm or less. Core Ultra are already on EUV like TSMC made CPUs and Intel is already getting High NA EUV running while AMD's manufacturer TSMC is not currently pursuing this lower node advancement.

High NA EUV will definitely be more efficient than DUV and will definitely have a higher heat density, but also may scale worse with more power and may be less durable (usually this is more evident in earlier iterations of a node).

The indestructible beast CPUs of the 12900k-14900k series that happily consume enough power to make 14 phases droop may be the last of their kind.

I'm glad to have one since it will not only last a long time, but consuming a lot of power with it is a choice. I can game at 4k60 using 30-40W if I tune the clocks back and also do things like browse the web at 10w.
With my PC running quieter nearly all of the time than if I had a Ryzen with everything else being the same.

 

[Amdlova]

Don't see any problem with 13600t
Work as intended can push it to 50w and man it's 90% of a stock 12600k and temps? Two degree above ambient temps.

 

[craigss]

The issue is Intel temps in all core benchmarks and some relatively rare applications where, in the case of all core benchmarks some enthusiasts will go to extremes to get the best performance.

Intel's power consumption excess isn't so black and white, there are other factors in play like:

1. Intel 12-14th scale well with volts at high frequencies while AMD ones do not - hence the motivation for use of higher volts for more frequency by consumers.

2. Intel chips are far more durable in regards to how many volts and how much power they can take - hence the lack of deterrent for adding more volts and power.

3. Intel 12-14th gen chips are still coolable while using 2-3x as much power as Ryzen CPUs and most consumers care more about temps than power consumption. For example: https://www.boringtextreviews.com/2...i9-13900k-not-as-great-with-amds-ryzen-7700x/ max 298W with 13900k vs 126.5W max with a 7700X.

With most fan curves higher temps mean louder PC. I believe more care more about the volume of their fans over the power consumed by their CPU. This is a good motivation to undertake the more risky and difficult delidding of Ryzen CPUs which is also happening.

Also it is notable that this situation may not last much longer. Intel 12th -14th gen are still made on DUV lithography while AMD hasn't used DUV since they started having TSMC make their CPUs instead of Global Foundry. DUV is older and works well for large nodes like 22nm, but is not suited for 10nm or less. Core Ultra are already on EUV like TSMC made CPUs and Intel is already getting High NA EUV running while AMD's manufacturer TSMC is not currently pursuing this lower node advancement.

High NA EUV will definitely be more efficient than DUV and will definitely have a higher heat density, but also may scale worse with more power and may be less durable (usually this is more evident in earlier iterations of a node).

The indestructible beast CPUs of the 12900k-14900k series that happily consume enough power to make 14 phases droop may be the last of their kind.

I'm glad to have one since it will not only last a long time, but consuming a lot of power with it is a choice. I can game at 4k60 using 30-40W if I tune the clocks back and also do things like browse the web at 10w.
With my PC running quieter nearly all of the time than if I had a Ryzen with everything else being the same.

Meanwhile a 7800x3d will do all that with less power and cores, I think your missing the point yes the intel chips can use more power, the point is not only can they use but they do in fact have to use it to get the last bit of performance, whilst for you its a choice to go with the extra power in reality if you were to look at the performance per watt over a similar workload then AMD comes out on top every time, I believe the next gen will also show the same advantage as TSMC is on a matured process evolution whilst for Intel its a first step on that ladder.
Games at 4k dont tax the CPU its mostly GPU try it at 1080 and see the results, again the discussion is specifically the CPU not the other bits of the system, my x3d sips power at 4k whilst using less power but beating the Intel side my 4090 however guzzles it and dumps 400 plus W into my cooling loop

 

[TerryLaze]

Meanwhile a 7800x3d will do all that with less power and cores, I think your missing the point yes the intel chips can use more power, the point is not only can they use but they do in fact have to use it to get the last bit of performance,

First of all, that's a pretty different thing, you are comparing with a specialized CPU that is only good at one thing, playing games, but not even every game but only some games that benefit largely from a big cache.

It's like taking a celeron that has quicksync and then comparing it with a CPU that has no iGPU at all and saying that the celeron is faster at video conversion and uses less power to do so with qsv, because the other CPU doesn't even have qsv, while true it's also a very specific set of circumstances that need to happen for it to be true.

Secondly, every CPU, your x3d included, has to use all the power it can to get the last bit of performance out of it.
The only difference is that the x3d has no safe margins above what they come with, you try to run the ram or the CPU any faster and they could explode on you.

Thirdly look at
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/...ke-tested-at-power-limits-down-to-35-w/8.html

For the 47 apps average the 7800x3d achieves 71% the performance of the 14900k with 49W average while the 14900k achieves 75% with 65W , for gaming efficiency the 7800x3d gets 5.1FPS while the 14900k at 65W gets 4.6, sadly they don't test the 14900k at 50W to get an even better comparison, but already one can see that the difference in power that "HAVE TO" isn't as big as you think.

 

[craigss]

OMG how much do you want to try and cherry pick to slew the results?
Do you work for Intel by any chance because all your recent posts seem to totally ignore facts and do their best to make Intel look great.
Ok lets make it simple get a 7950x and a 14900k test them both with out of the box settings (tech powerup did just that) and the conclusion is simple and I will summarise it.
The 14900k boosts higher and MARGINALLY beats the 7950x in the overall test but not in ALL the tests, however
7950x max power draw 230w Max temp was 92.4 degc
14900k Maximum power draw 351w Max temp was 105 degc
You can manipulate figures all you like and make allowances all you like but the truth is the universe works on the laws of Physics, to do work you spend energy, energy cannot be destroyed it can only do work.
The 14900k is the absolute pinnacle of what Intel can achieve right now but it comes at a cost of inefficient use of energy despite the fact it has so called efficiency cores whilst the AMD part has standard cores, lets also remember the 14900 is a so called new CPU but we all know in reality its a overclocked previous gen part with better ram support, they just stopped saying +++++etc
Facts dont lie but they can sure as hell be manipulated!

 

[TerryLaze]

OMG how much do you want to try and cherry pick to slew the results?
Do you work for Intel by any chance because all your recent posts seem to totally ignore facts and do their best to make Intel look great.
Ok lets make it simple get a 7950x and a 14900k test them both with out of the box settings (tech powerup did just that) and the conclusion is simple and I will summarise it.
The 14900k boosts higher and MARGINALLY beats the 7950x in the overall test but not in ALL the tests, however
7950x max power draw 230w Max temp was 92.4 degc
14900k Maximum power draw 351w Max temp was 105 degc
You can manipulate figures all you like and make allowances all you like but the truth is the universe works on the laws of Physics, to do work you spend energy, energy cannot be destroyed it can only do work.
The 14900k is the absolute pinnacle of what Intel can achieve right now but it comes at a cost of inefficient use of energy despite the fact it has so called efficiency cores whilst the AMD part has standard cores, lets also remember the 14900 is a so called new CPU but we all know in reality its a overclocked previous gen part with better ram support, they just stopped saying +++++etc
Facts dont lie but they can sure as hell be manipulated!

How is taking a review with the most amount of benchmarks cherry picking?!
Are you speaking a different language than everybody else in this world?!

You did not talk about default settings (out of the box) you talked about "have to" and techpowerup PROVES that they don't "have to"

You are completely ignoring the numbers that you don't like just to make yourself feel better...

If with cherry-picking you meant the 125W setting, that is what these CPUs are rated for and is the default power draw they should have.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000055611/processors.html

Is the Processor Base Power terminology the same as the TDP?
Yes, in the 12th Generation and above, the TDP terminology is replaced with Processor Base Power.

I accept that the 351W and even the 400W+ numbers exist on intel, but you can't accept that the intel CPUs can also run at 125W.