Is technology to blame for the London riots

[blackhawk1928]

Just that they be taxed enough to ensure everyone who busts his/her ass 40 hours a week can have healthcare without having to file for bankrupcy when he/she gets sick. And that every child who gets nice grades in high school can go to college without having to enter the scholarship lottery and without ending up in a ton of debt. The rich live off the work of the rest, are protected by them, reap huge profits off them and should thus be concerned about their well being, since many refuse to do so on a voluntary basis it seems a healthy amount of concern for their fellow human beings (their golden geese) has to be beaten into them by the IRS. Don't worry, the rich will still make obscene profits after this, they'll barely notice the difference, but a lot of poor people will see their lives transform. It's a golden deal for the rich: the poor won't chop their heads off and they'll still get to make way more money than any job is really worth (nobody works hard enough to "earn" $10 million a year, so when society lets you legally keep $5 million of it you should stfu and count your blessings, well that's just how I see it).

I don't understand you, I simply don't. The rich, legally and through hard-work climb to the top of the income chain (Or they do it with their brains), and earn lots of money. Who are you to tell them how much they can earn or that they have to pay for somebody elses well being. The rich don't get rich from the labor of the poor...the poor choose to work voluntarily. You think there is slavery, but you are liar. Nobody is forcefully working for anybody.

Just that they be taxed enough to ensure everyone who busts his/her ass 40 hours a week can have healthcare without having to file for bankrupcy when he/she gets sick.

You are acting as if 40hours a week is lot of work...many people work 60 and even 80...and are fine. Working 40 hours a week takes up 24% of your time...the other 76% of their time...the people you speak off enjoy their lives and sleep.

And that every child who gets nice grades in high school can go to college without having to enter the scholarship lottery and without ending up in a ton of debt.

Why is at a rich persons problem...if the kid has a debt problem...guess what?...THATS HIS OWN PROBLEM! Why you feel entitled for somebody else to pay for anothers problem.

Your entitlement mentality is the main issue in the United States.

Don't worry, the rich will still make obscene profits after this, they'll barely notice the difference, but a lot of poor people will see their lives transform.

Except they will lay off jobs in their business...which will then in turn harm americans.

 

[Archean]

Have a look at this graph, and tell me what you see, then consider the economic conditions of 1923 onward, and compare them with today.

During the great depression the ordinary people survived barely, I'd say mostly because they were able to hang on to their homes somehow. This time around, things are different, more then ten million people find themselves without homes. To sum it up, let me quote from “The Bankers Manifesto of 1892”:

"When through the process of law, the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of government, applied to a central power of imperial wealth under the control of the leading financiers [i.e. the banksters]."

Thus we can probably say that no matter how long this recession lasts, or even if it develops into a depression, the general population will emerge from it much poorer than the previous cycles.

Let me ask you one question "Is there any other group of people in the world more corrupt than the Wall Street Oligarchs?"

Now the other issue of income of wealthiest, while the wages for ordinary American worker has remained relatively stagnant, the income of rich has been multiplying every year, e.g. in 1995 the top 400 wealthiest Americans earned 50$ million on average, whereas fast forward to end of 1st decade of this century and it is in the range of 400$ million.

Someone in an earlier post also blamed unions for many ills. During my masters in management, the behavior and practices of unions was one of my topics, and my observation was that unions never really got the workers the rights they deserved mostly because of people who was running them got greedy / corrupt just like I'd say everyone else. But the underlying thinking behind unionism was very noble provided they had 'honest and hardworking' people running the show. With the corporatization of media in the 70s, it became very easy for employers to demonize unions, hence planting seeds for their disintegration and eventual disappearance. By eliminating job safety, the corporations have virtually created a form of slavery, knowing that people are left with very little choices. Hence, to sum it up, ignorance of people mean one thing, the sheep willingly threw away rights which they fought so hard to get in the first place.

To summarize it, I would say this also contributed in long term phenomenon of 'Structured Unemployment'. Structural unemployment is unemployment which is permanently 'structured' into labor markets so even at the peak of each business cycle, a large (sometimes growing) number of people would never find employment.

(On the issue of working hours a week)

Since technology always eliminates jobs faster than it creates new applications, every few decades it is necessary to shorten the work week – otherwise a steadily growing number of workers would never find a job. Since, the Govt. has stopped doing its duty of revising work week as the technology evolves it means that structured unemployment will continue to grow.

Roughly two thousand years ago Greek philosopher, Plutarch said:

"An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all Republics."

IMO it is just as damningly true today.

 

[Gulli]

I like the former? Japanese system, where the top man couldnt earn 7x more than the lowest paid
That in no way effects the already wealthy.
One has to understand, for decades the US system has worked
Everyone else played catch up
The wealthy are allowed tax incentives to invest, if those investments are kept within country, they should obviously continue
If theyre foreign investments, those monies should have a varying tax structure

In this thread, someone who hasnt read enough here said reagonomics is a fix all, but I deny this, as times have changed, as thoswe investors put their monies in Holland and Germany
I say its time they pull those monies out, reinvest here at home, with incentives
Lower the overpriced pay of those who "lead" their companies, spread that amongst the people on board, DONT give it to the government, wholl have to create a system of distribution, fairness etc, then print seperate financials to each reciprient, as they also keep tabs on them, way too costly an issue
Just pay the folks more, the "heads" less

PS This isnt communism, which paying more should be held in regard
Athletes, actors etc, can get those monies, and the sysem works
If they quit going to movies, or not go or watch ballgames, thise will change, as it doesnt show signs of problems, unlike the rest of the system, where the boards have lost their senses going after the guy they want
Yet theres ridicule about AMD for not replacing their head man
I say, they need money, they are doing OK, dont jump the gun, find the right fit
Even in College football, many decent schools hire young up and comers, so too should these corps

I'm not principally against this, but I'd like to point out that you forgot one condition required to make it work: someone has to prevent a massive inflational spiral, or in other words make sure health insurers and colleges don't just raise their rates to match the increased spending power of the people (this is why I proposed giving the government control over them, after all, you can't complain the government is interfering too much when the government pays the bills, and because this has been tried in other countries, often with great succes).

 

[Gulli]

I don't understand you, I simply don't. The rich, legally and through hard-work climb to the top of the income chain (Or they do it with their brains), and earn lots of money. Who are you to tell them how much they can earn or that they have to pay for somebody elses well being. The rich don't get rich from the labor of the poor...the poor choose to work voluntarily. You think there is slavery, but you are liar. Nobody is forcefully working for anybody.

Just that they be taxed enough to ensure everyone who busts his/her ass 40 hours a week can have healthcare without having to file for bankrupcy when he/she gets sick.

You are acting as if 40hours a week is lot of work...many people work 60 and even 80...and are fine. Working 40 hours a week takes up 24% of your time...the other 76% of their time...the people you speak off enjoy their lives and sleep.

And that every child who gets nice grades in high school can go to college without having to enter the scholarship lottery and without ending up in a ton of debt.

Why is at a rich persons problem...if the kid has a debt problem...guess what?...THATS HIS OWN PROBLEM! Why you feel entitled for somebody else to pay for anothers problem.

Your entitlement mentality is the main issue in the United States.

Don't worry, the rich will still make obscene profits after this, they'll barely notice the difference, but a lot of poor people will see their lives transform.

Except they will lay off jobs in their business...which will then in turn harm americans.

No they are not fine, 80 hours a week is already hard when you're a lawyer, but it's deadly when you have a physically demanding job. Unless you work 80 hours a week (excluding lunch and commuting, otherwise it's cheating) you really shouldn't be saying people should just work 80 hours a week to afford the necessities. Whoever hasn't been laid off by now probably cannot be replaced by Chinese or Indians, otherwise that would have happened already. Employees are entitled to life and liberty according to your own constitution, life means health care and liberty means not being slaves. The rich need well-educated poor/middle class children to innovate and work for them, that's why they should be concerned about education (I'm just stating this because you are devoid of any moral behaviour towards fellow human beings who did not choose to be born not rich).

And finally you're dead wrong about the rich working for their money: no job is worth the amounts these people make (off the backs of others). The rich are sucking the people dry because the people don't resist them hard enough.

P.S. there should really be an additional tax bracket for over $1 million.

 

[rededed1976]

Wow, talk about a derailed thread.
London Roits and Technology...... Turns into US politics......
Every time the Yanks hijack the forums..

 

[Archean]

"I'm just stating this because you are devoid of any moral behaviour towards fellow human beings who did not choose to be born not rich".

That is because 'benefits of blind capitalism' has been drummed into our ears and brains for so long that now no one even bothers to stop for a moment and think about ethical and social problems this system creates.

Look at these facts and then compare with the graph I linked above:

■ Since 1980 the US economy has doubled in size, but wages for ordinary workers have remained flat.

■Where’d all the money go? To the super-rich. The top 1%.

■All this money at the top has given the super rich lots of political power, especially the power to lower their own tax rates. Before 1980 the top tax rate was over 70% but now it’s only 30%. And the richest 400 Americans pay only @17%.

I think you can link the dots and imagine where all this is heading.

 

[Archean]

@red
Don't worry I am involved in hijacking of my own thread and feel free to drag us back to the topic. 😉

 

[Supermuncher85]

Obviously we should blame violent computer games like world of warcraft, which were clearly the cause of the Norwegian massacre.

 

[Gulli]

Here's one for you all to think about: this year tax cuts for the rich will cost the government about $70 billion. The top 1% pay 25% of this amount, so the rest, the "99ers" (everyone who's not a millionaire), of society pays 75%. In other words: people who are not in the top 1% will "invest" $52,5 billion in the tax cuts. For the past decades the trend has been that the rich got richer very quickly. The rich take 80% of economic growth. So every dollar the 99ers put into tax brakes has to be multiplied into 3,75 dollars just so the 99ers can break even, and it has to happen within one year, every year! In other words the tax cuts for the rich have to grow the US economy by 1,78% every year just for the 99ers to break even! The most optimistic predictions predict 3,2% economic growth for 2012 (this year economic growth has been lower than the predictions, as is often the case). This means the tax cuts for the rich have to cause 56% of total economic growth just to make them worthwile for the 99ers! For the uninitiated: such figures would represent an economic miracle, no investment yields 275% profit yearly (the congessional budget office doesn't believe the tax cuts will even put their own size back into the economy, let alone multiply by 3,75 times).

Still believe in "trickle down"?

P.S. 1) I know some of you will object that tax cuts are not true government expenditures, but that's arguing semantics: there is no mathematical difference between first having x and then spending y and first having x-y and then spending 0. My calculations will not be affected by this argument.

P.S. 2) I know politics is mostly about emotion, not facts, what a shame... Call me old fashioned but I still think one cannot truly win a debate or govern justly when one does not have the facts on one's side.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

No they are not fine, 80 hours a week is already hard when you're a lawyer, but it's deadly when you have a physically demanding job. Unless you work 80 hours a week (excluding lunch and commuting, otherwise it's cheating) you really shouldn't be saying people should just work 80 hours a week to afford the necessities. Whoever hasn't been laid off by now probably cannot be replaced by Chinese or Indians, otherwise that would have happened already. Employees are entitled to life and liberty according to your own constitution, life means health care and liberty means not being slaves. The rich need well-educated poor/middle class children to innovate and work for them, that's why they should be concerned about education (I'm just stating this because you are devoid of any moral behaviour towards fellow human beings who did not choose to be born not rich).

And finally you're dead wrong about the rich working for their money: no job is worth the amounts these people make (off the backs of others). The rich are sucking the people dry because the people don't resist them hard enough.

P.S. there should really be an additional tax bracket for over $1 million.

Ive done many things in my life, and working 80 or more hours a week for weeks was one of them, and no, it wasnt pushing pencils or tapping on keys

I was in the best shape of my life then, I was in my 40s, and I actually enjoyed
I wasnt forced, I wasnt a slave
Get your facts straight, and come back and talk