Discussion Is X870E motherboard a joke?

[FAhentai]

Hi guys, recently I have checked out the details about X870E motherboard, which made me totally shocked. How can this happen? Here is the details:
Before we start, I'd like to review X670E/B650E motherboard so that if some one does not know too much about AM5 platform.
If you already know about X670E/B650E in details, which I believe most of people here would, please just ingore this part,
As most of people here know about, for AM5, if you are using Ryzen 7000 or 9000 family CPU, you have total 28X PCI-E 5.0 from CPU to all the expasion, let's just ignore the PCI-E lanes that come from the chipset (I will explain everything later) , a typical X670E has 2XM.2 that from CPU directly, usually M.2_0 and M.2_1, each of them takes 4X PCI-E 5.0, thus, 20 PCI-E 5.0 lanes left, 16X for graphic, the last 4X lanes are used for connecting chipset.
Meanwhile, the chipset however, is no longer like the tranditional nth/sth bridge design (in fact north bridge has disappered from motherboard for almost 2 decades), it is basically something like a PLX+ some other function. Nevertheless, the major problem of AMD X670E/B650 is, the chipset that both of them use are ASM PROM 21,which only has total 12XPCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0, if you want to use sata then each PCI-E 3.0 lane will be convert to a sata port. However, the PCI-E lanes from CPU are 5.0., they have to down grade to PCI-E 4.0 to connect the chipset. Meanwhile, the difference between X670E and B650E/B650 is X670E is made by 2XASM PROM 21, it is connect to each other with series connection, which works out that there are total 12X PCI-E 4.0 and 8XPCI-E 3.0/SATA to use (the first PROM 21 connects to CPU, cost 4X PCI-E 4.0 lanes, connects to 2ed PROM21, cost another 4X PCI-E 4.0 lanes, which has only 4XPCI-E 4.0 to use and 4XPCI-E 3.0/SATA to use, while the 2ed PROM21 connets to 1st PROM21, cost 4XPCI-E 4.0 lanes, left 8X PCI-E 4.0 lanes and 4XPCI-E 3.0 lanes to use, so finally works out 4+8=12X PCI-E lanes plus 8XPCI-E 3.0 lanes/sata to use) while B650E has only one ASM PROM21, which works out 8XPCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0/Sata to use (4Xpci-e 4.0 is used to connect to CPU, which works out 12-4 = 8X PCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0 to use). Usually, if it is X670E, the PCI-E 4.0 lanes from chipset will be distribute to 2XM.2 pci-e 4.0 Ports, the rest are used for other things such as wifi, nic, and PCI-E slots on the motherboard, and the PCI-E 3.0 are used to connect sata devices and something else such as PCI-E slots, while for B650, usually there is only one PCI-E 4.0 M.2 that is from Chipeset, the rest of PCI-E lanes are used for SATA, pci-e slots, etc. Of course, there are some motherboards that has more than 2Xm.2 that connects cpu direct, those ports however, once they are in use, your graphic will run at 8x speed.
Here is a detail example. Now I am use Asus ROG X670E HERO, it is X670E motherboard, which means that it has total 12XPCI-E 4.0 and 8XPCI-E 3.0/sata from the chipset. On the motherboard, there are 2XM.2 run @pci-e 5.0X4 speed that connect to cpu directly, meanwhile 2xm.2 pci-e 4.0 from chipset. Which leaves 4XPCI-E 4.0 from chipset to use. Then, WIFI and NIC takes one PCI-E 4.0 lanes each, the ASM1061 Chip (a pci-e 2.0 to 2xsata 3 chip) takes 1XPCI-E, the last PCI-E 4.0 lane is used for the last pci-e slot on the very end of the motherboard. For PCI-E 3.0 part, 4XPCI-E 3.0 are used to make 4XSATA3 ports, plus 2XSATA3 from ASM1061, which works out 6 SATA3 ports, the last 4XPCI-E 3.0 are used to make a USB4 port.

My personal idea about X670E/B650E is that they are noot good enough yet accepatble, after all they seems like rushly made. In fact, the PROM 21 is the same chip that has been used on B550 motherboard. However X870E is totally below my expectation. Once again, I want to ask, how can this be? First of all, the chips it uses are still 2XPROM21. I was expecting at least they add 4XPCI-E 5.0 on one of PROM21 as the uplink, yet it is not there. In fact there is no differecen between X670E and X870E. Like this is not bad enough, it seems like AMD is forcing all the AIC to use 4XPCI-E 5.0 from the CPU to connect a USB4 chip, which means if you don't want to make your grahic card runs at 8X, you have only one M.2 that diectlly connect to CPU. I still fail to understand why is that. Asus X670E has already prove that for USB4, you just need X4 pci-e 3.0. Why AMD is forcing AIC to waste the precious PCI-E 5.0X4, down grade them to PCI-E 3.0X4 to just connect USB4? Is that because PCI-E 5.0X4 has big bandwideth so that in the future when the next gen RTX cards start use PCI-E 5.0, it may able to allow 3 way SLI (8+8+4) without performance lose so that they are not able to force those people with this kind of demand to buy their HEDT products?
I have been a computer hardware ethusist for almost 27 years, starts with AMD 486 DX-2 66MHZ. I have seen countless motherboards. Yet it is the first time I found that the motherboard can be down graded like this. I miss the old days when the 3rd party chipset manufacture, such as VIA, SIS, NVDIA were there. If they were still there, this would never happen.

 

[kerberos_20]

the only real difference between x670E and x870E is just addition of USB4 (40Gbit), on x670e this was optional, on x870e its a standart feature
and wifi7
thats about it
its same platform, no other changes, if youre already on 600 series board, then you can ignore 800 series board

 

[kanewolf]

My personal idea about X670E/B650E is that they are noot good enough yet accepatble, after all they seems like rushly made. In fact, the PROM 21 is the same chip that has been used on B550 motherboard. However X870E is totally below my expectation. Once again, I want to ask, how can this be? First of all, the chips it uses are still 2XPROM21. I was expecting at least they add 4XPCI-E 5.0 on one of PROM21 as the uplink, yet it is not there. In fact there is no differecen between X670E and X870E. Like this is not bad enough, it seems like AMD is forcing all the AIC to use 4XPCI-E 5.0 from the CPU to connect a USB4 chip, which means if you don't want to make your grahic card runs at 8X, you have only one M.2 that diectlly connect to CPU. I still fail to understand why is that. Asus X670E has already prove that for USB4, you just need X4 pci-e 3.0. Why AMD is forcing AIC to waste the precious PCI-E 5.0X4, down grade them to PCI-E 3.0X4 to just connect USB4? Is that because PCI-E 5.0X4 has big bandwideth so that in the future when the next gen RTX cards start use PCI-E 5.0, it may able to allow 3 way SLI (8+8+4) without performance lose so that they are not able to force those people with this kind of demand to buy their HEDT products?
I have been a computer hardware ethusist for almost 27 years, starts with AMD 486 DX-2 66MHZ. I have seen countless motherboards. Yet it is the first time I found that the motherboard can be down graded like this. I miss the old days when the 3rd party chipset manufacture, such as VIA, SIS, NVDIA were there. If they were still there, this would never happen.

Multi GPU is a VERY small percentage of all users. Rendering? Yeah. AI? Some. Mainstream and gaming? NOPE. Even the use-cases where multi-GPU makes sense, workstation motherboards with more PCIe lanes are usually a better fit.
The XvvvE motherboard are for buyers that want to brag about what they bought. They are trying to showoff that they have money. It is the same as buying an Escalade rather than an Yukon. You are trying to impress someone.

 

[CountMike]

Hi guys, recently I have checked out the details about X870E motherboard, which made me totally shocked. How can this happen? Here is the details:
Before we start, I'd like to review X670E/B650E motherboard so that if some one does not know too much about AM5 platform.
If you already know about X670E/B650E in details, which I believe most of people here would, please just ingore this part,
As most of people here know about, for AM5, if you are using Ryzen 7000 or 9000 family CPU, you have total 28X PCI-E 5.0 from CPU to all the expasion, let's just ignore the PCI-E lanes that come from the chipset (I will explain everything later) , a typical X670E has 2XM.2 that from CPU directly, usually M.2_0 and M.2_1, each of them takes 4X PCI-E 5.0, thus, 20 PCI-E 5.0 lanes left, 16X for graphic, the last 4X lanes are used for connecting chipset.
Meanwhile, the chipset however, is no longer like the tranditional nth/sth bridge design (in fact north bridge has disappered from motherboard for almost 2 decades), it is basically something like a PLX+ some other function. Nevertheless, the major problem of AMD X670E/B650 is, the chipset that both of them use are ASM PROM 21,which only has total 12XPCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0, if you want to use sata then each PCI-E 3.0 lane will be convert to a sata port. However, the PCI-E lanes from CPU are 5.0., they have to down grade to PCI-E 4.0 to connect the chipset. Meanwhile, the difference between X670E and B650E/B650 is X670E is made by 2XASM PROM 21, it is connect to each other with series connection, which works out that there are total 12X PCI-E 4.0 and 8XPCI-E 3.0/SATA to use (the first PROM 21 connects to CPU, cost 4X PCI-E 4.0 lanes, connects to 2ed PROM21, cost another 4X PCI-E 4.0 lanes, which has only 4XPCI-E 4.0 to use and 4XPCI-E 3.0/SATA to use, while the 2ed PROM21 connets to 1st PROM21, cost 4XPCI-E 4.0 lanes, left 8X PCI-E 4.0 lanes and 4XPCI-E 3.0 lanes to use, so finally works out 4+8=12X PCI-E lanes plus 8XPCI-E 3.0 lanes/sata to use) while B650E has only one ASM PROM21, which works out 8XPCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0/Sata to use (4Xpci-e 4.0 is used to connect to CPU, which works out 12-4 = 8X PCI-E 4.0 and 4XPCI-E 3.0 to use). Usually, if it is X670E, the PCI-E 4.0 lanes from chipset will be distribute to 2XM.2 pci-e 4.0 Ports, the rest are used for other things such as wifi, nic, and PCI-E slots on the motherboard, and the PCI-E 3.0 are used to connect sata devices and something else such as PCI-E slots, while for B650, usually there is only one PCI-E 4.0 M.2 that is from Chipeset, the rest of PCI-E lanes are used for SATA, pci-e slots, etc. Of course, there are some motherboards that has more than 2Xm.2 that connects cpu direct, those ports however, once they are in use, your graphic will run at 8x speed.
Here is a detail example. Now I am use Asus ROG X670E HERO, it is X670E motherboard, which means that it has total 12XPCI-E 4.0 and 8XPCI-E 3.0/sata from the chipset. On the motherboard, there are 2XM.2 run @pci-e 5.0X4 speed that connect to cpu directly, meanwhile 2xm.2 pci-e 4.0 from chipset. Which leaves 4XPCI-E 4.0 from chipset to use. Then, WIFI and NIC takes one PCI-E 4.0 lanes each, the ASM1061 Chip (a pci-e 2.0 to 2xsata 3 chip) takes 1XPCI-E, the last PCI-E 4.0 lane is used for the last pci-e slot on the very end of the motherboard. For PCI-E 3.0 part, 4XPCI-E 3.0 are used to make 4XSATA3 ports, plus 2XSATA3 from ASM1061, which works out 6 SATA3 ports, the last 4XPCI-E 3.0 are used to make a USB4 port.

My personal idea about X670E/B650E is that they are noot good enough yet accepatble, after all they seems like rushly made. In fact, the PROM 21 is the same chip that has been used on B550 motherboard. However X870E is totally below my expectation. Once again, I want to ask, how can this be? First of all, the chips it uses are still 2XPROM21. I was expecting at least they add 4XPCI-E 5.0 on one of PROM21 as the uplink, yet it is not there. In fact there is no differecen between X670E and X870E. Like this is not bad enough, it seems like AMD is forcing all the AIC to use 4XPCI-E 5.0 from the CPU to connect a USB4 chip, which means if you don't want to make your grahic card runs at 8X, you have only one M.2 that diectlly connect to CPU. I still fail to understand why is that. Asus X670E has already prove that for USB4, you just need X4 pci-e 3.0. Why AMD is forcing AIC to waste the precious PCI-E 5.0X4, down grade them to PCI-E 3.0X4 to just connect USB4? Is that because PCI-E 5.0X4 has big bandwideth so that in the future when the next gen RTX cards start use PCI-E 5.0, it may able to allow 3 way SLI (8+8+4) without performance lose so that they are not able to force those people with this kind of demand to buy their HEDT products?
I have been a computer hardware ethusist for almost 27 years, starts with AMD 486 DX-2 66MHZ. I have seen countless motherboards. Yet it is the first time I found that the motherboard can be down graded like this. I miss the old days when the 3rd party chipset manufacture, such as VIA, SIS, NVDIA were there. If they were still there, this would never happen.

How could anybody get sentimental bout VIA and SIS chipsets ? They were disaster specially SIS. All those pins to configure and BIOS having little adjustments....... brrrr, shudder when I remember !!! When North and South bridge were integrated and BIOS was only one way of adjustments, things looked much better.

 

[TeamRed2024]

its same platform, no other changes, if youre already on 600 series board, then you can ignore 800 series board

That's what I wanted to hear. Thanks for the info!

 

[FAhentai]

the only real difference between x670E and x870E is just addition of USB4 (40Gbit), on x670e this was optional, on x870e its a standart feature
and wifi7
thats about it
its same platform, no other changes, if youre already on 600 series board, then you can ignore 800 series board

Yes but as I mentioned before, it seems like for X870E, you are forced to use PCI-E 5.0X4 from CPU to connets the USB4 chip while for X670E you can use the PCI-E lanes from chipset, which makes one less M.2 that directly connets to CPU. That is a down grade. X670E with USB4 is even better.

Multi GPU is a VERY small percentage of all users. Rendering? Yeah. AI? Some. Mainstream and gaming? NOPE. Even the use-cases where multi-GPU makes sense, workstation motherboards with more PCIe lanes are usually a better fit.
The XvvvE motherboard are for buyers that want to brag about what they bought. They are trying to showoff that they have money. It is the same as buying an Escalade rather than an Yukon. You are trying to impress someone.

That muti GPU is just my guess, otherwise I just fail to see any reason for AMD forcing X870E to use its CPU-linked PCI-E 5.0X4 to connect a USB4 chip. It just does not make any sense.
Meanwhile, for XvvE part, think about M.2 slots, SATA ports. Espcially for AMD motherboard, AM5 socket is going to last long. More expansion is needed.

How could anybody get sentimental bout VIA and SIS chipsets ? They were disaster specially SIS. All those pins to configure and BIOS having little adjustments....... brrrr, shudder when I remember !!! When North and South bridge were integrated and BIOS was only one way of adjustments, things looked much better.

1st of all, VIA and SIS are not that bad. I have built so many computers with their chip sets, starts with Socket 7. and the last one I have built is with VIA PT890PRO chipset. Hardly any one goes wrong.
2ed, Pins and switches are also on Intel chipset at that time.
3rd, you missed my point. As I mentioned there, nowadays, the chipset is more or less like a PLX with some other functions such as SATA/USB controller. If those companies are still there, then, we would never been rip-off by AMD and Intel. Those companies would offer more.

 

[CountMike]

Yes but as I mentioned before, it seems like for X870E, you are forced to use PCI-E 5.0X4 from CPU to connets the USB4 chip while for X670E you can use the PCI-E lanes from chipset, which makes one less M.2 that directly connets to CPU. That is a down grade. X670E with USB4 is even better.

That muti GPU is just my guess, otherwise I just fail to see any reason for AMD forcing X870E to use its CPU-linked PCI-E 5.0X4 to connect a USB4 chip. It just does not make any sense.
Meanwhile, for XvvE part, think about M.2 slots, SATA ports. Espcially for AMD motherboard, AM5 socket is going to last long. More expansion is needed.

1st of all, VIA and SIS are not that bad. I have built so many computers with their chip sets, starts with Socket 7. and the last one I have built is with VIA PT890PRO chipset. Hardly any one goes wrong.
2ed, Pins and switches are also on Intel chipset at that time.
3rd, you missed my point. As I mentioned there, nowadays, the chipset is more or less like a PLX with some other functions such as SATA/USB controller. If those companies are still there, then, we would never been rip-off by AMD and Intel. Those companies would offer more.

Chipsets were bad specially for us overclockers and tuners, North bridge was heating more than CPUs and South bridge was far cry from Plug&play. Everything had to be adjusted and set manually in OS,

 

[kerberos_20]

just fail to see any reason for AMD forcing X870E to use its CPU-linked PCI-E 5.0X4 to connect a USB4 chip. It just does not make any sense.

they dont use nvme lanes for usb4, its not connected to pcie
its 16 lanes for gpu and 8 for general purpose (1x m2 + something or 2x m2) and 4 for chipset
same setup as with x670e, just its usb4 now

some mainboards offer even x3 gen 5 m.2 slots at the cost of pcie lanes from graphics

 

[TeamRed2024]

The XvvvE motherboard are for buyers that want to brag about what they bought. They are trying to showoff that they have money. It is the same as buying an Escalade rather than an Yukon. You are trying to impress someone.

I was looking for 4 m.2 slots... that was the top priority. This board was $260 which was a good price.

Meanwhile, for XvvE part, think about M.2 slots, SATA ports. Espcially for AMD motherboard, AM5 socket is going to last long. More expansion is needed.

My point exactly.

 

[FAhentai]

they dont use nvme lanes for usb4, its not connected to pcie
its 16 lanes for gpu and 8 for general purpose (1x m2 + something or 2x m2) and 4 for chipset
same setup as with x670e, just its usb4 now

some mainboards offer even x3 gen 5 m.2 slots at the cost of pcie lanes from graphics

No, that was wrong. Now I am using Asusu Rog Hero X670E, it uses PCI-E 3.0X4 from chipset to do so.
And also, you can go check the manual for Asus Rog Hero X870E, you will find that there are only 1 m.2 that directly connect to the CPU, as long as you want to keep you graphic card runs at 16x.
However, there are some motherboards that supports USB4 when you use Ryzen 8000 family CPU. Yet for 9000 and 7000, it will back to USB3.2x2

 

[FAhentai]

Chipsets were bad specially for us overclockers and tuners, North bridge was heating more than CPUs and South bridge was far cry from Plug&play. Everything had to be adjusted and set manually in OS,

Well, back to the old days it is always pain in the ass to overclock. No matter if it is VIA SIS or Intel, Nvdia. BIOS setting is never enough, you need to turn the dip swtiches and after that go back to BIOS to enable everything.
Overheating nth bridage, that was a news for me. The only 3rd party Chipset that has Nth bridge overheatting problem is Nvdia's Geforce N68 back to old days. Other than that, I hardly see and heard about

 

[kerberos_20]

nd also, you can go check the manual for Asus Rog Hero X870E, you will find that there are only 1 m.2 that directly connect to the CPU

just checked and manuals state this:
Supports 5 x M.2 slots and 1 x SlimSAS connector and 4 x SATA 6Gb/s ports*
AMD Ryzen™ 9000 & 7000 Series Desktop Processors
M.2_1 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
M.2_2 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
M.2_3 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
***When M.2_3 are enabled, PCIEX16_1 will run x8, and PCIEX16_2 will run x4.
** When M.2_2 and M.2_3 are enabled simultaneously, PCIEX16_2 will be disabled.
***When M.2_3 are enabled, PCIEX16_1 will run x8, and PCIEX16_2 will run x4, M.2_2 will be disabled.
a bit confusing to read, but as long you dont touch m2_3 slot, gpu wont get pegged

all three are wired to CPU, but two are dedicated and one use lanes from pcie x16 slots


edit: looking at your x670e hero and its basicly same? two m2 slots wired to cpu, two wired to chipset and 5th as an adapter which would peg gpu?

 

[TeamRed2024]

just checked and manuals state this:
Supports 5 x M.2 slots and 1 x SlimSAS connector and 4 x SATA 6Gb/s ports*
AMD Ryzen™ 9000 & 7000 Series Desktop Processors

... and here I was thinking 4 slots was enough. Actually... it is. I might consider upgrading if the next chipset has 6 slots. 🤣

 

[kanewolf]

... and here I was thinking 4 slots was enough. Actually... it is. I might consider upgrading if the next chipset has 6 slots. 🤣

99% of use cases will see zero performance improvement between a SATA SSD and an NVMe SSD. The most significant improvement is the removal of cables.

 

[kerberos_20]

99% of use cases will see zero performance improvement between a SATA SSD and an NVMe SSD. The most significant improvement is the removal of cables.

i would actually preffer cables to move m2 drives somewhere together away from gpu, close to front intake, but cables are up to gen4 if im not mistaken, 5.0 is kinda short for my liking

 

[TeamRed2024]

99% of use cases will see zero performance improvement between a SATA SSD and an NVMe SSD. The most significant improvement is the removal of cables.

Maybe I'm just confused... but I definitely see a difference when moving data between NVMe to NVMe compared to SATA to SATA. The 990 Pros I have are like 7000mb/sec... while the 2.5 870's are like 560mb/sec...

 

[kanewolf]

Maybe I'm just confused... but I definitely see a difference when moving data between NVMe to NVMe compared to SATA to SATA. The 990 Pros I have are like 7000mb/sec... while the 2.5 870's are like 560mb/sec...

If you have a single large file? You might see a few seconds difference. Is that REALLY significant? But if you have a directory of a 1000 smaller files? The overhead negates the benefits. I didn't say there were zero differences, just very few.

 

[FAhentai]

just checked and manuals state this:
Supports 5 x M.2 slots and 1 x SlimSAS connector and 4 x SATA 6Gb/s ports*
AMD Ryzen™ 9000 & 7000 Series Desktop Processors
M.2_1 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
M.2_2 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
M.2_3 slot (Key M), type 2242/2260/2280 (supports PCIe 5.0 x4 mode)
***When M.2_3 are enabled, PCIEX16_1 will run x8, and PCIEX16_2 will run x4.
** When M.2_2 and M.2_3 are enabled simultaneously, PCIEX16_2 will be disabled.
***When M.2_3 are enabled, PCIEX16_1 will run x8, and PCIEX16_2 will run x4, M.2_2 will be disabled.
a bit confusing to read, but as long you dont touch m2_3 slot, gpu wont get pegged

all three are wired to CPU, but two are dedicated and one use lanes from pcie x16 slots


edit: looking at your x670e hero and its basicly same? two m2 slots wired to cpu, two wired to chipset and 5th as an adapter which would peg gpu?

Humm, interesting..... It seems like I have been missled by one of those vlogers in China.
After checking all the details, I finally got the full picture for ROG X870E HERO
For M2 1, 2 and 3, as well as PCI-E 1 and 2, they are all directly linked to cpu, however, it seems like both PCI-E 2 and M2_3 needs to steal from 16X.
From Chipset side, since the chipset can offer 12X PCI-E 4.0 and all its 4.0 lanes are used for M.2/SLIM SAS devices. Thus, 2xm.2 and one 8654-4I, USB4 takes 4XPCI-E 3.0, while 5G ethernet (no wonder why they use 5G here, 10G with PCI-E 3.0 1X is not enough), 2.5G ethernet and wifi take 1Xeach, the last one pci-e 3.0 lane must be used as the sata 3 controller, might be ASM 1064 or 1164, so that it can offer 4XSATA3 with just one PCI-E 3.0
Damn, it seems like, well I was wong on this one...
For X670 HERO, it is like 4XM.2, 2 from chipset and 2 from CPU. There is one PCI-E 4.0X1 SLOT from chipset. Can't say which one is better.
Yet it is still not able to change the fact that X870E looks like a joke

 

[TeamRed2024]

If you have a single large file? You might see a few seconds difference. Is that REALLY significant? But if you have a directory of a 1000 smaller files? The overhead negates the benefits. I didn't say there were zero differences, just very few.

Yeah makes sense. I do see a difference... but that's because I'm moving thousands of GBs in a single click sometimes... files that are 5-20GB in size. Small files not so much.

 

[logainofhades]

How could anybody get sentimental bout VIA and SIS chipsets ? They were disaster specially SIS. All those pins to configure and BIOS having little adjustments....... brrrr, shudder when I remember !!! When North and South bridge were integrated and BIOS was only one way of adjustments, things looked much better.

My old ECS K7S5A had an SIS chipset and had no pins to mess with. Bios was bland for settings, but at the time it was one of the best boards you could buy for Socket A.