Question Laptop for College (Engineering Major)

[Jcharby]

Hi all,

I was wondering if some more knowledgable people could weigh in on what type/what features I should be looking for for a college laptop. I am going to be studying Aerospace Engineering at WPI. There will be some extensive software I will need to be able to store and run on my computer and in general I would like a solid workstation computer but one that is still portable and lightweight. I don't care too much about gaming potential from the laptop, a little would be nice but it is not my main concern at all. I know a decent amount about computers as I have built and upgraded my personal desktop, but I feel a bit more clueless when it comes to laptops.

Are there certain specifications that I should be looking for when buying a laptop for my needs? I know I will absolutely need a windows OS because of the software I will be using, but besides that, what should I be looking for when it comes to processors, RAM, storage, graphics, etc. I have tried to do some research on other forum pages and websites like bestbuy, but I feel the options are very limited. Also, I would say that my budget for a laptop is around $1000

I would love to have the ability to upgrade my laptop if need be as well. I had a discussion with a teacher regarding this and he suggested getting a solid regular laptop and then upgrading it as I went, but I know laptops are very restrictive on their upgrading capabilities.

If anyone has any knowledge they could input as far as what I should be looking for or recommendations of laptops to look at I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,

Jack

 

[Eximo]

Thought I would go with a thorough answer, since no one was responding.

Upgrading and laptops don't really go hand in hand. You are pretty much limited to memory and storage upgrades for 95% of laptops available today. CPUs are often soldered to the motherboard, and the same is true for all but the highest end CPUs and GPUs.

Even CPU and GPU socketed laptops are a nightmare to upgrade. The heatsink sold with the laptop was designed for the components it shipped with. Adding a more powerful GPU or CPU at a later date will only work if the new parts offer the same or lower power envelope.

Loose laptop CPUs and GPUs are incredibly expensive and hard to obtain. Usually you have to wait some years for them to be on the market, and at that point much better will be available.

You do have conflicting requirements. Workstation like performance and portability. However, there are a few models that fulfill that. Though they aren't likely to be under $1000 unless you buy used equipment.

First things first: CPUs, for the first time in many years, options! Intel offers ultrabook (U class) and H class processors. H stands for high performance. Ultrabook processors tend to have low base clocks and limited maximum boost speeds. H class processors base looks more like the ultrabook's boost, and they can go even closer to desktop speeds. At least for brief periods. Q tends to stand for quad cores, though that no longer applies to newer CPUs, and now they offer K (unlocked processors for overclocking) as well.

Common examples would i5-8350u for an ultrabook processor. i7-8750H (Older processors like the i7-6700HQ) Just important to note that U class processors will offer better battery life at the expense of performance. And the reverse is true for the H class processors.

Now 8th generation Intel and above the core counts are increased a lot. So there is some benefit for looking at new chips. The i3's are essentially older i5, the i5, equivalent to older i7, and the i7 and i9 (H class) are 6 and 8 core processors. Much more in the workstation class. The distinction between i7 and i5 U-class chips is usually only clock speed.

AMD is also a contender with their mobile versions of Ryzen, up to 8 cores there as well. Not a lot of engineering software is designed with AMD in mind, since Intel has had the business and engineering marketshare for so long. That goes for GPUs as well, a lot of Nvidia certified stuff out there. Apple usually goes with AMD graphics, but they are more focused on multimedia output.

These days you will want an SSD in anything you look at. (Keep in mind that is something you can upgrade yourself, so if you see a cheaper model without an SSD, you can swap one in) Better battery life and better performance than any spinning disk, but a potential compromise on total storage space (unless you have the spare cash for a large SSD).

Now, for engineering, having a GPU is a benefit in a lot of software. If only for helping with rendering CAD and 3D files. But many simulation programs will use GPUs to hardware accelerate. If you have an idea of the performance required, that would be helpful in picking something out. (There are always lab computers for anything else, I hope, if you want to prioritize portability)

And you will want to pick a general size. 12"-14" probably won't have anything beyond ultrabook processors. 15.6" is the standard size, but available in both ultrabook and more traditional laptop weight classes. Ultrabooks are thin and light, but lack the cooling and potential for expansion and upgradeability. More chance of soldered components. Laptops (Notebooks and now Mobile Workstations) are available in this size, but will be thicker and heavier. This is a good thing for workstation tasks. There are also heavier 17" gaming and workstation laptops if screen size is important to you.

I did some quick searches to give you an idea of the potentials:

Brand new, probably add memory if needed, quite capable of gaming:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-G55...10190100591024348263&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

Similar to the above, could use an SSD and RAM, but includes an i7 processor.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Pavil...41219343432360101921&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

Older, but professional grade. Would need an SSD added. Includes one step up from entry level professional graphics.
https://shop.pcmag.com/products/del...0-pro-off-lease-refurbished?utm_source=tbsite

Newer, no discrete GPU:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA0S8RC1095&ignorebbr=1

Newer, low end discrete GPU, lacking a bit of memory.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIACAY8XJ2539&ignorebbr=1

 

[jsmithepa]

Wow, I dunno if I can top ^that. 😀

For school u don't need power. What the school is gonna throw at you are LIGHT versions of whatever industrial app they want you to use. For school I want less weight/bulk (all the books you are to carry) and long lasting battery between charge (who has the time looking for outlets). Size/keyboard noise may matter if u intend to take notes with it in-class with tinny desks.

No matter what the usage I personally prefer a metal casing... plastics are just not durable and your palm sweats gonna destroy it.

 

[Eximo]

Not sure I agree on the light versions. Maybe lighter projects, at least at first. I didn't go into engineering myself, but a good chunk of my family did.

I can tell you my father is still using his i7-4800HQ and Quadro K620m for circuit simulation and development. My brother uses a much more powerful gaming system for his own business. I believe his is something like an i7 with a GTX1070. A software he uses takes advantage of GPU acceleration to do circuit board pathing and layout. (Now at his work they have much more powerful equipment, but I also don't know what their Aero guys use in terms of software, all in-shop software) Suffice to say I know they order latest model Nvidia graphics cards in the form of entire pallets.

Aerospace might involve some fluid modeling, so I think a GPU will be invaluable, if only to keep the system ram from being eaten up. Or you do go for extreme portability/battery life and rely on lab computers.

 

[Jcharby]

Thought I would go with a thorough answer, since no one was responding.

Upgrading and laptops don't really go hand in hand. You are pretty much limited to memory and storage upgrades for 95% of laptops available today. CPUs are often soldered to the motherboard, and the same is true for all but the highest end CPUs and GPUs.

Even CPU and GPU socketed laptops are a nightmare to upgrade. The heatsink sold with the laptop was designed for the components it shipped with. Adding a more powerful GPU or CPU at a later date will only work if the new parts offer the same or lower power envelope.

Loose laptop CPUs and GPUs are incredibly expensive and hard to obtain. Usually you have to wait some years for them to be on the market, and at that point much better will be available.

You do have conflicting requirements. Workstation like performance and portability. However, there are a few models that fulfill that. Though they aren't likely to be under $1000 unless you buy used equipment.

First things first: CPUs, for the first time in many years, options! Intel offers ultrabook (U class) and H class processors. H stands for high performance. Ultrabook processors tend to have low base clocks and limited maximum boost speeds. H class processors base looks more like the ultrabook's boost, and they can go even closer to desktop speeds. At least for brief periods. Q tends to stand for quad cores, though that no longer applies to newer CPUs, and now they offer K (unlocked processors for overclocking) as well.

Common examples would i5-8350u for an ultrabook processor. i7-8750H (Older processors like the i7-6700HQ) Just important to note that U class processors will offer better battery life at the expense of performance. And the reverse is true for the H class processors.

Now 8th generation Intel and above the core counts are increased a lot. So there is some benefit for looking at new chips. The i3's are essentially older i5, the i5, equivalent to older i7, and the i7 and i9 (H class) are 6 and 8 core processors. Much more in the workstation class. The distinction between i7 and i5 U-class chips is usually only clock speed.

AMD is also a contender with their mobile versions of Ryzen, up to 8 cores there as well. Not a lot of engineering software is designed with AMD in mind, since Intel has had the business and engineering marketshare for so long. That goes for GPUs as well, a lot of Nvidia certified stuff out there. Apple usually goes with AMD graphics, but they are more focused on multimedia output.

These days you will want an SSD in anything you look at. (Keep in mind that is something you can upgrade yourself, so if you see a cheaper model without an SSD, you can swap one in) Better battery life and better performance than any spinning disk, but a potential compromise on total storage space (unless you have the spare cash for a large SSD).

Now, for engineering, having a GPU is a benefit in a lot of software. If only for helping with rendering CAD and 3D files. But many simulation programs will use GPUs to hardware accelerate. If you have an idea of the performance required, that would be helpful in picking something out. (There are always lab computers for anything else, I hope, if you want to prioritize portability)

And you will want to pick a general size. 12"-14" probably won't have anything beyond ultrabook processors. 15.6" is the standard size, but available in both ultrabook and more traditional laptop weight classes. Ultrabooks are thin and light, but lack the cooling and potential for expansion and upgradeability. More chance of soldered components. Laptops (Notebooks and now Mobile Workstations) are available in this size, but will be thicker and heavier. This is a good thing for workstation tasks. There are also heavier 17" gaming and workstation laptops if screen size is important to you.

I did some quick searches to give you an idea of the potentials:

Brand new, probably add memory if needed, quite capable of gaming:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dell-G55...10190100591024348263&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

Similar to the above, could use an SSD and RAM, but includes an i7 processor.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/HP-Pavil...41219343432360101921&affillinktype=10&veh=aff

Older, but professional grade. Would need an SSD added. Includes one step up from entry level professional graphics.
https://shop.pcmag.com/products/del...0-pro-off-lease-refurbished?utm_source=tbsite

Newer, no discrete GPU:
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAA0S8RC1095&ignorebbr=1

Newer, low end discrete GPU, lacking a bit of memory.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIACAY8XJ2539&ignorebbr=1

Wow, thank you for such an in depth response. I realize now that some of my requirements may be a bit unrealistic, especially the $1000. I appreciate all of the input, this will be a great reference as I go forward in my research. The first two Dell and HP computers look like great options. I saw you mention that an SSD can/should be swapped in to a PC i get if Its lacking one. Do laptops have empty areas in the case to support adding an SSD or is it a matter of removing the HDD and replacing it with an SSD?

 

[TJ Hooker]

I can tell you my father is still using his i7-4800HQ and Quadro K620m for circuit simulation and development.

I can't comment on Aerospace, but I studied electrical eng and my budget laptop with an Intel T5500 and integrated graphics was enough for doing simulation of any of the relatively basic circuits I was working with in school. As well as compiling/running any code I needed (again, relatively small/simple programs).

Stuff like CAD and FE analysis which I assume mechanical eng students use may be more intensive though.

 

[Eximo]

That depends entirely on the model. Many newer laptops use M.2 drives which will be SSDs. Others will use 2.5" drive bays for hard drives. But some computers will have an empty M.2 slot in those situations where an SSD can be added. But generally you would be swapping out a 2.5" hard drive for a 2.5" SATA SSD.

OEMs still tend to charge a high premium for SSDs, even though they are approaching cost similar to hard drives. (In bulk they probably pay $25 for a 1TB hard drive and $35 for a 256GB drive, but the new QLC stuff

NVMe (Non Volatile Memory Express) is a much faster protocol than SATA, this will be in more expensive late model laptops.
There will be Flash based SSDs, and small 8/16/32GB Intel Optane Accelerators installed in these. (An optane drive could easily be replaced with an NVMe SSD.

M.2 SATA SSDs, are SSDs in the M.2 form factor, but are limited to that protocol's speed. Nothing wrong with these, they can be slightly cheaper.

2.5" SATA SSDs occupy standard drive bays. They often can max out the 550MB/s capability of SATA III.

2.5" SATA Hard Drives. 7200rpm, 5400rpm. Higher the RPM the better. Sustained transfer speeds will be somewhere between 80 and 120 MB/s depending on drive configuration and fragmentation.

 

[Eximo]

I can't comment on Aerospace, but I studied electrical eng and my budget laptop with an Intel T5500 and integrated graphics was enough for doing simulation of any of the relatively basic circuits I was working with in school. As well as compiling/running any code I needed (again, relatively small/simple programs).

Stuff like CAD and FE analysis which I assume mechanicals use may be more intensive though.

I did EET for a few semesters. Couldn't really get into it, but we used pretty crap computers to do a lot of the work. I think Pentiums with HT, maybe. Might have been early C2D. Running Altera FPGA tools was the farthest I got, I can't recall if we used MultiSim, but I know that PSpice was probably in the future down that line. But yes, the general education stuff was pretty light. I'm more referring to later stuff when you are asked to design wings or lifting bodies as final projects. I imagine a good chunk of Aero engineering is going to involve fluid dynamics these days. Pretty much has to.

I work for an engineering company and being able to talk shop even a little bit with the engineers is invaluable. Being in charge of the software library gives me pretty good insight into what it takes to run some of this stuff.

Our current offerings are well above the $1000 range I can say with certainty. (heck that is about what my GPU-less business laptop cost) We just recently abandoned workstations and replaced the majority of engineering systems with light mobile workstations. We offer a big one too, and for the really dedicated dual processor workstations with 128GB+ RAM and available multiple GPUs, those are $10K+ systems though. (And the really big guys use a Unix based compute cluster, no idea how that thing works)

 

[TJ Hooker]

Sure, for doing real professional work I imagine the requirements are different. Just saying that for me, the requirements for what you're doing in school weren't really that high. Not necessarily because you're using different, "light" versions of programs but possibly just because the size/scope of what you do in school is typically going to be pretty limited.