Legends and Myojin

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

OK, as an old-style player, I'm having a bit of trouble
absorbing exactly how the new legends rules work.
Please tell me if the following will work or not:

I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
What happens? Would it make a difference if the second
one doesn't have a counter?

If it works, I have a deck that could put out three or four
of them in short order, but there's no point in doing so if
they're going to be fratricidal.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

abnermintz@earthlink.net (Abner Mintz) writes:
> OK, as an old-style player, I'm having a bit of trouble
> absorbing exactly how the new legends rules work.

Well, it works much like it used to, except that now all legendary
creatures with the same name go to the graveyard instead of all but
the oldest.

> I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
> What happens?

They both go to your graveyard.

> Would it make a difference if the second one doesn't have a counter?

No. The counters are irrelevant here. Being indestructible only stops
something from being destroyed. That means a spell or ability that
uses the word "destroy", or lethal damage (since the rulebook uses the
word "destroy" for that). Any other way of dying, such as having
nonpositive toughness, being sacrificed, or the Legend rule, doesn't
care whether something is indestructible or not.

> If it works, I have a deck that could put out three or four
> of them in short order, but there's no point in doing so if
> they're going to be fratricidal.

That deck must get out a huge amount of mana. But alas, they are
fratricidal. Might I suggest getting out a much of huge creatures that
aren't Legends-with-the-same-name and beating your opponent with a
variety of baddies instead.

--
Peter C.
"Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most
intriguing."
-- Data, "Haven", Star Trek, The Next Generation
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Abner Mintz wrote:

> OK, as an old-style player, I'm having a bit of trouble
> absorbing exactly how the new legends rules work.
> Please tell me if the following will work or not:
>
> I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
> What happens? Would it make a difference if the second
> one doesn't have a counter?
>
> If it works, I have a deck that could put out three or four
> of them in short order, but there's no point in doing so if
> they're going to be fratricidal.

Being "indestructible" means "destroy effects don't do anything
to this permanent." (remember that lethal damage puts a creature
in the graveyard by destroying it as a state-based effect, so that's
nullified too) It doesn't do anything if you aren't destroying it.
Now, looking at the Legends rule:

420.5e If two or more permanents with the same name have the supertype
legendary, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the
"legend rule." If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule
doesn't apply.

Note that this rule doesn't destroy anything; it directly puts them
into the graveyard. So being indestructible doesn't help. If you
play a second Myojin of Life's Web, both are put into your graveyard
as a state-based effect, regardless of whether either or both have
a divinity counter.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Abner Mintz <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote:

> OK, as an old-style player, I'm having a bit of trouble
> absorbing exactly how the new legends rules work.
> Please tell me if the following will work or not:
>
> I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
> What happens?

They are both put into your graveyard. (Under the old rules, only the
second one would have suffered that fate.)

420.5e If two or more permanents with the same name have the supertype
legendary, all are put into their owners' graveyards. This is called the
"legend rule." If only one of those permanents is legendary, this rule
doesn't apply.

> Would it make a difference if the second
> one doesn't have a counter?

What does the counter have to do with it?

Indestructible
If a permanent is indestructible, rules and effects can't destroy it.
Such permanents are not destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the
lethal-damage state-based effect (see rule 420.5c). Rules or effects may
cause an indestructible permanent to be sacrificed, put into a
graveyard, or removed from the game.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Abner Mintz <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
> What happens? Would it make a difference if the second
> one doesn't have a counter?

As I understand it, the first time the game checks for state-based
effects, both legends see each other and go to the graveyard. Having a
divinity counter (and as such Indestructibility) does not prevent the
legend rule from moving the two Myojin from play to the graveyard, the
same way it cannot stop sacrificing and other actions (except
destroying).

- ∞
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooperjr.name> wrote:
> Well, it works much like it used to, except that now all legendary
> creatures with the same name go to the graveyard instead of all but
> the oldest.

Ah well, it was worth a try. I thought it was a sacrifice-like effect
(where they both got sacrificed), and then was told by a
younger player that they both got 'destroyed'. It was worth
checking out. :)

> That deck must get out a huge amount of mana. But alas, they are
> fratricidal. Might I suggest getting out a much of huge creatures that
> aren't Legends-with-the-same-name and beating your opponent with a
> variety of baddies instead.

That's what the deck currently does - it's a deck full of legends
where the only creature with more than 2 copies is Captain Sisay
(and most only have 1 copy in the deck). If the Myojin trick had
worked, it would have been the second creature with more than
2 copies. But that's getting into deck design, not rules.

Thanks to all who replied!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Abner Mintz" <abnermintz@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1grazst.9olqq3fmh4rqN%abnermintz@earthlink.net...
> Peter Cooper Jr. <pete+mtg@cooperjr.name> wrote:
>> Well, it works much like it used to, except that now all legendary
>> creatures with the same name go to the graveyard instead of all but
>> the oldest.
>
> Ah well, it was worth a try. I thought it was a sacrifice-like effect
> (where they both got sacrificed), and then was told by a
> younger player that they both got 'destroyed'. It was worth
> checking out. :)
>
>> That deck must get out a huge amount of mana. But alas, they are
>> fratricidal. Might I suggest getting out a much of huge creatures that
>> aren't Legends-with-the-same-name and beating your opponent with a
>> variety of baddies instead.
>
> That's what the deck currently does - it's a deck full of legends
> where the only creature with more than 2 copies is Captain Sisay
> (and most only have 1 copy in the deck). If the Myojin trick had
> worked, it would have been the second creature with more than
> 2 copies. But that's getting into deck design, not rules.

As a small aside.. there's a card out from Betrayers of Kamigawa that lets
you get around this little inconvenience..

Mirror Gallery
5
Artifact
The legend rule doesn't apply.

Drop this into play and run as many Myojin of Life's Webs, Captain Sisays,
and what-have-you as you desire.. as long as you can keep the Gallery alive.
:) Hmm.. Nicol Bolas and/or Greel might not be so bad to make sure your
opponent can't handle the Gallery without going to topdeck mode..

Erich
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
> As a small aside.. there's a card out from Betrayers of Kamigawa that lets
> you get around this little inconvenience..

> Mirror Gallery

Neat. :) I haven't gotten my boxes of that expansion yet, so I
wouldn't normally be aware of the card until my wife and I open
them up together. I'll see if I can fit that card in productively.
One Captain Sisay is good, three of them in tandem would be
a disaster for the opponent.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Abner Mintz sez:

<<
>I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
> What happens? Would it make a difference if the second
> one doesn't have a counter?
>
>>

They both go to the graveyard as a SBE. It's not destruction, so the divinity
counter makes no difference. The only change from the previous rule is, the
oldest one also goes now.

<<
>If it works, I have a deck that could put out three or four
> of them in short order, but there's no point in doing so if
> they're going to be fratricidal.
>>

If you want good fratricidal legends, go for the Dragon Spirits...


----
Farewell to the undefeated, undisputed king of late night...
RIP Johnny Carson (1925-2005)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 04 Feb 2005 08:42:01 GMT, Andy Jakcsy <djaxmann@aol.computer> wrote:
>Abner Mintz sez:
>>I have, in some previous turn, cast a Myojin of Life's Web;
>> it has a counter on it that makes it indestructible. I now
>> cast a second Myojin of Life's Web, also with a counter.
>> What happens? Would it make a difference if the second
>> one doesn't have a counter?
>
>They both go to the graveyard as a SBE. It's not destruction, so the divinity
>counter makes no difference. The only change from the previous rule is, the
>oldest one also goes now.

Did not see the original post (yet) for some reason. Andy is correct, and is
correct as to why; the Legend rule never 'destroys' anything, the same way
that getting your creature's toughness down to 0 or less doesn't "destroy" it.

>>If it works, I have a deck that could put out three or four
>> of them in short order, but there's no point in doing so if
>> they're going to be fratricidal.
>
>If you want good fratricidal legends, go for the Dragon Spirits...

Or put in a Mirror Gallery. Or two...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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