Life expectancy

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
> experience, training, and education are significant. If you
> did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
> remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
> technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
> don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
> 'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
> their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
> digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
> shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
> that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
> attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
> excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
> they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
> existed - no numbers required.

I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
sense.

I've sat with an o-scope monitoring noise on AC lines and also used
strip recorders to monitor AC voltage levels in buildings. I've worked
on 2300V gear and with signals as low as 0.0001VDC for gauge amplifiers.
I've also designed non-switching power supply units that also manage to
follow (in +15/-15 circuits) to within .001v over a 20deg/f swing over
30 minutes temp variation.

What you might want to take away from this discussion is that while a
UPS may not technically, in your clinical environment, provide all the
protection that the medial hype presents, they often save the users
computer equipment from failure of any number of parts/reasons.

Many of us don't care why they work, but with hundreds of them in the
field, possible some of us have thousands of them in the field, I'm sure
that you'll understand we're not just pulling this out of our asses -
we're relating our experience with the actual systems, in the actual
field, in operation around the country, and with a direction correlation
between failures/problems before the UPS's were installed and the
decrease of problems after they were installed (not just data-corruption
problems.

You don't have to like that "fact" that UPS's provide protection beyond
just simple "data" protection, but, anyone that owns one will tell you
that they do and they do it quite well.

I had a double-E working for me one time - he was sent to trouble-shoot
a problem for a customer. Spent hours looking at the prints based on the
described problem. After about 6 hours I called and asked how things
were going (since it should have taken less than 1 hour) and was told
that he thought he found the problem, but the customer had told him that
the part (a mechanical relay) had never failed in all these years - so
he discounted it as being the fault...... Needless to say, I told him to
replace the relay (after looking at the prints on our side) and the
system worked. Sometimes you just have to go with what you know and not
what the world is telling you no matter how technical/degreed you are.

UPS's protect computer hardware against damage in more cases than not,
live with it.

--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

 

[Paul]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <MPG.1c56354395d2e36d989f4b@news-server.columbus.rr.com>,
Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:

> In article <41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> > Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
> > experience, training, and education are significant. If you
> > did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
> > remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
> > technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
> > don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
> > 'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
> > their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
> > digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
> > shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
> > that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
> > attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
> > excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
> > they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
> > existed - no numbers required.
>
> I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
> information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
> sense.
>

You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.

Try a Google search on:

w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"

and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
you ?

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Just trying to be helpful but I doubt your experience exceeds mine. I
started on an IBM 1620, after my first university degree but hey whose
counting..
BTW UPSs get used all the time IF they're UPS's.
"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5617f876fe6dd4989f48@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <AwXGd.1026$P_3.5501@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>,
> caldasfire@hades.com says...
> > If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like cars
they
> > need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.
>
> From what I've read, I was working on these things before you were out
> of school, I'm more than aware that they need to have the batteries
> changed on scheduled intervals, more frequently if they are used
> frequently.
>
> And, again, it's not my comfort level that I'm raising, it's customer
> down-time and cost related to power problems.
>
> > "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.1c55f02e82abd4db989f47@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> > > In article <41EC13DD.DC0A75D9@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> > > > What is comes down to is simply this ... and this is always
> > > > a source of disagreement.
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > You win - but I'm still going to purchase, install, and use common UPS
> > > devices on all of our systems and clients systems because I can see
the
> > > benefit of such devices each time there is a change in the AC line
power
> > > being supplied to the building.
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > spamfree999@rrohio.com
> > > (Remove 999 to reply to me)
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> --
> spamfree999@rrohio.com
> (Remove 999 to reply to me)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

More BS. You obviously have never contracted for or installed one. All
batteries a have a finite life on them. The warrantee on the batteries is
usually 5 years and replacement is built into the maintenance contract
prices.. Besides except for Mil Sites and big organizations PC style UPSs
have only been around for 10 to 15 years to any great degree. When did the
Apple II Hit the market, April 1977 wasn't it?
"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41EC65C4.AE5450D5@hotmail.com...
> Use facts from cars to discuss a UPS. How long does that
> car battery last even in weather extremes? Six years? Nine
> years? Battery backup systems in high reliability buildings
> are surviving twenty years. So why does that plug-in UPS
> battery always in a perfect environment typically last only
> three years? Details may be found in technical concepts such
> as the battery recharge circuit. So how good is that plug-in
> UPS design? Serious battery backup or a disposable one?
> These quality questions would be understood by computer
> experts those with electrical knowledge. Just another
> function that should be inside the box. Is it? Or are they
> selling a UPS only on price?
>
> notritenoteri wrote:
> > If it raises your comfort level go for it. Remember UPS's are like
> > cars they need maintenace, at a minimum a new battery every so often.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

I'm so happy for you. You have your numbers as a comfort and you can design
power supplies and even 1969 style car ignitions just great for the 2005
models. Tell me how do you fix the 90 micron lines on the chips? You must
have really really good eyesight and a steady hand.Your experience training
and education mean ah heck all where the rubber meets the road so to speak.
You have obviously never fixed a real world problem if you think a cheap
multi-meter is much use to trouble shooting. Besides board swapping is a
time honoured tradition, the dead board goes back to the lab to be examined
in more detail by educated, experienced and trained monkeys like you .
Except now most of them are just test jigs and they say yes or no. In the
meantime the system is up and running and the guys paying the bills, the
customer are happy and that's what counts -- all the way to the bank.

Can you say pretentious?
"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com...
> Before cars had electronic ignitions, I built and installed
> one in my late 1960s model. And then wondered why Detroit
> could not do same. EPA regulations finally forced Detroit's
> bean counters to let the engineers design (even better). Is
> your experience (and theoretical training) anywhere near as
> comprehensive?
>
> Notice the difference between my posts and other. I keep
> insisting on and providing numbers. Numbers alone suggest
> underlying knowledge. No numbers suggests a poster has no
> knowledge and is probably rationalizing junk science. Numbers
> are a benchmark that should have made your question
> irrelevant. Since you did not recognize the significance of
> numbers, I better understand the breath and depth of your
> experience.
>
> How long can all power supply outputs be shorted before a
> power supply is destroyed? Knowing of functions that must be
> inside a power supply, then that answer is not only easy, but
> can be provided with relative numbers. Many computer people
> do not know that simple answer, would never understand why,
> and do not even know the simple 3 word phrase that summarizes
> that answer. But then one of my first jobs was design, debug,
> and manufacturer of power supplies. Ever have a large
> electrolytic capacitor explode in front of you? One supply
> was a hybrid of switching and linear circuits for analog
> operation. Of course, those with basic electrical knowledge
> would appreciate why. Just more background so that lurkers
> can appreciate which one here was posting technical facts and
> not urban myths.
>
> Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
> experience, training, and education are significant. If you
> did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
> remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
> technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
> don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
> 'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
> their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
> digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
> shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
> that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
> attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
> excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
> they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
> existed - no numbers required.
>
> notritenoteri wrote:
> > "Blackout and voltage sags (brownouts) do not harm hardware." where
> > is this axiom written? Science you say? More like junk science.
> > This NG is full of people with problems that was caused by
> > everything from bad design to the wind. How much practical
> > experience have you had I'm curious. I obviously live on another
> > planet where the techies are mostly concerned about fixing
> > the problem. You tell me where I can get one of these power
> > supplies that is guaranteed not to be responsible in any
> > fashion whatsover for problems caused by blackouts or brown outs.
> > I haven't heard of any but I don't know many of the answers in fact
> > I don't know most of them. WHat an advertising advantage "we
> > guarantee our power supplies are perfect in the event of
> > blackouts or brownouts" .

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <nospam-1801050121300001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
says...
> In article <MPG.1c56354395d2e36d989f4b@news-server.columbus.rr.com>,
> Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
>
> > In article <41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> > > Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
> > > experience, training, and education are significant. If you
> > > did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
> > > remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
> > > technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
> > > don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
> > > 'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
> > > their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
> > > digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
> > > shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
> > > that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
> > > attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
> > > excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
> > > they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
> > > existed - no numbers required.
> >
> > I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
> > information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
> > sense.
> >
>
> You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.
>
> Try a Google search on:
>
> w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"
>
> and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
> that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
> you ?

I don't really consider him an "opponent" more of a techno-spec freak.
While his information does provide some insight into protecting systems
from power problems, it's lacking any real-world experience. Anyone
that's used/purchased a UPS due to prior problems with power already
knows about the true and realized benefits of having one vs not having
one.

--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Leythos wrote:

> In article <nospam-1801050121300001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> says...
>
>>In article <MPG.1c56354395d2e36d989f4b@news-server.columbus.rr.com>,
>>Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
>>>
>>>> Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
>>>>experience, training, and education are significant. If you
>>>>did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
>>>>remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
>>>>technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
>>>>don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
>>>>'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
>>>>their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
>>>>digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
>>>>shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
>>>>that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
>>>>attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
>>>>excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
>>>>they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
>>>>existed - no numbers required.
>>>
>>>I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
>>>information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
>>>sense.
>>>
>>
>>You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.
>>
>>Try a Google search on:
>>
>> w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"
>>
>>and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
>>that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
>>you ?
>
>
> I don't really consider him an "opponent" more of a techno-spec freak.
> While his information does provide some insight into protecting systems
> from power problems, it's lacking any real-world experience. Anyone
> that's used/purchased a UPS due to prior problems with power already
> knows about the true and realized benefits of having one vs not having
> one.

I see considerable merit in both perspectives.

Many years have passed since I graduated from electrical engineering at
college level, but w_tom's lectures ring true - in an ideal world, any
outlet you might have available to plug your electronics into would be
downstream of a whole building grounding system designed by experts in
the field in accordance with best practice and incorporating due
consideration for local conditions. In this ideal world, additional
surge suppressors within the building would provide no benefit, and the
utility of UPS systems would be limited to their ability to reduce data
corruption and downtime in the event of power outages or significant
voltage variations. As w_tom is at pains to point out, it is indeed
shortsighted of 'humans' to neglect proper grounding system design
during construction, since it is highly cost effective then but
frequently impractical to retrofit.

On the other hand, while I was in college my Dad was paying for it with
profits from volume sales of plug-in surge suppressors to corporations
with hundreds of PCs - and using their testimonials in subsequent
advertising. w_tom is big on numbers, but the only statistic I recall
was from a customer with ~2500 PCs who reported a 40% year-over-year
reduction in PC hardware failures after installing the surge suppressors.

Would this customer have achieved even better results by retrofitting
building grounding systems instead? Probably, see w_tom's lectures ;-)

Would retrofitting building grounding systems have been more cost
effective? Unknown - this would have involved negotiations with numerous
landlords and was not seriously pursued.

Did the manager who signed the surge suppressor purchase order have
authority to order grounding system retrofits instead? Absolutely not!


P2B

 

[Paul]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <egJHd.51401$W33.1343836@news20.bellglobal.com>, P2B
<p2b@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Leythos wrote:
>
> > In article <nospam-1801050121300001@192.168.1.177>, nospam@needed.com
> > says...
> >
> >>In article <MPG.1c56354395d2e36d989f4b@news-server.columbus.rr.com>,
> >>Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>In article <41EC649C.CF544788@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> >>>
> >>>> Again, more little facts that say, in no uncertain terms, my
> >>>>experience, training, and education are significant. If you
> >>>>did not know the above answers, then appreciate how much
> >>>>remains to be learned. I keep providing and referring to
> >>>>technical numbers that too many computer assemblers often
> >>>>don't know and will insist they need not know. Why? Many
> >>>>'computer experts' need only replace a silver box to prove
> >>>>their technical prowess. They don't even use a simple 3.5
> >>>>digit multimeter. The worst of them fix computers by
> >>>>shotgunning. They need not understand what happens inside
> >>>>that silver box. Then when other failures happen, they simply
> >>>>attach more boxes - such as a UPS. Then blame fictional
> >>>>excuses such as 'dirty' electricity or a mythical surge. Did
> >>>>they measure that problem? No. They just knew it must have
> >>>>existed - no numbers required.
> >>>
> >>>I'm getting a little tired of your posts, only for the reason that your
> >>>information is correct in a clinical sense, but not in the real world
> >>>sense.
> >>>
> >>
> >>You don't really know the modus operandi of your opponent.
> >>
> >>Try a Google search on:
> >>
> >> w_tom1@hotmail "surge protector"
> >>
> >>and observe the pattern, and the wide range of USENET groups
> >>that contain lectures on the subject. What does that tell
> >>you ?
> >
> >
> > I don't really consider him an "opponent" more of a techno-spec freak.
> > While his information does provide some insight into protecting systems
> > from power problems, it's lacking any real-world experience. Anyone
> > that's used/purchased a UPS due to prior problems with power already
> > knows about the true and realized benefits of having one vs not having
> > one.
>
> I see considerable merit in both perspectives.
>
> Many years have passed since I graduated from electrical engineering at
> college level, but w_tom's lectures ring true - in an ideal world, any
> outlet you might have available to plug your electronics into would be
> downstream of a whole building grounding system designed by experts in
> the field in accordance with best practice and incorporating due
> consideration for local conditions. In this ideal world, additional
> surge suppressors within the building would provide no benefit, and the
> utility of UPS systems would be limited to their ability to reduce data
> corruption and downtime in the event of power outages or significant
> voltage variations. As w_tom is at pains to point out, it is indeed
> shortsighted of 'humans' to neglect proper grounding system design
> during construction, since it is highly cost effective then but
> frequently impractical to retrofit.
>
> On the other hand, while I was in college my Dad was paying for it with
> profits from volume sales of plug-in surge suppressors to corporations
> with hundreds of PCs - and using their testimonials in subsequent
> advertising. w_tom is big on numbers, but the only statistic I recall
> was from a customer with ~2500 PCs who reported a 40% year-over-year
> reduction in PC hardware failures after installing the surge suppressors.
>
> Would this customer have achieved even better results by retrofitting
> building grounding systems instead? Probably, see w_tom's lectures ;-)
>
> Would retrofitting building grounding systems have been more cost
> effective? Unknown - this would have involved negotiations with numerous
> landlords and was not seriously pursued.
>
> Did the manager who signed the surge suppressor purchase order have
> authority to order grounding system retrofits instead? Absolutely not!
>
>
> P2B

I'll be honest with you. I didn't read any of w_toms posts in this
thread. It is his presentation style that irks me. I've read some
of the threads he's participated in before. If he is trying to
be helpful, he picks a funny way to do it at times. Antagonizing
the people in your thread doesn't help.

Based on the wide range of news groups that end up with "surge
protector" threads like this, w_tom seems to use Google, to find
any group that is discussing surge protectors. There is nothing
wrong with that, as long as your sole purpose is not to pick fights
with people or hijack the thread they have started.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=w_tom1@hotmail+%22surge+protector%22

If anything, w_toms threads draw the best from other participants
in the thread. For example, I just noticed a reference to this product:

http://brickwall.com/howwork.htm

Certainly a different approach to the problem. Seems to be a subject
filled with loads of claims and counter-claims.

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Review some false claims confronted in this thread followed
by an answer to the OP's original question.

Surge protectors don't operate fast enough. Claim was made
based upon insufficient technical knowledge. Claim confronted
with numbers. Author no longer makes that claim.

"in this country buildings are well enough grounded to be
safe in most circumstances". But that grounding is for human
safety. Earthing for transistor safety is significantly
different. We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
Authors eventually abandoned that claim.

Ground Fault indicators and joules were noted in UPS as if
these provided hardware protection. Demonstrated was that
Ground Fault Indicator does not and could not detect a failed
earth ground. That joules alone don't prove protection is
being provided (which explains many 'protectors' with
insufficient joules). Author never challenged that facts;
having noted that grounding requirement in an earlier post.

"the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
against rare events is probably not worth it". And so he
would recommend spending $15 or $50 per protected appliance on
ineffective plug-in protectors rather than $1 per protected
appliance for an effective 'whole house' protector? He would
spend $thoundands on ineffective protectors? No wonder he
thought protection costs so much. The effective protector
costs tens of times less money. Author conceded that fact.

"uncontrolled power loss does impact the life expectancy of
the hardware systems" was stated only based upon a personal
opinion. Supporting facts were never provided. No components
could be identified as damaged by uncontrolled power loss.
Electronics sees same power down whether it is from an
unexpected power loss or normal shutdown. If unexpected power
loss impacts hardware life expectancy, then so does normal
power off. Author never could say why power loss was so
destructive nor could he identify parts that are damaged.
Author repeatedly made claims but could not explain why normal
power down also did not do same damage.

Once it was apparent that he could not challenge facts, an
author then resorted to claiming I did not have practical
experience. Even when examples of extensive design and
operation experience were provided, he continued his claims.
Why? He had no facts. He was left only to claim I could not
know the facts; only he could be correct because he had
experience (without the essential underlying theory).

The discussion ended here. Not able to dispute the facts -
starting with a myth that surge protectors operate too slow -
author is now left claiming only he has worldly experience.
Implied is an admission that the author also has no 'book
learning'. Author is even invited to define essential
functions that must be inside a power supply. He cannot.
Common among those who recommend a plug-in UPS to protect
hardware but don't know why.

One claim never made: a warranty proves that plug-in UPSes
or power strip protectors are effective hardware protection.
That would be another common myth that others use when
technical knowledge is insufficient.

Fact remains that a protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. Earthing is how serious, high reliability
facilities have done it for generations. Earthing is why the
telephone company's $multi-million dollar computer, connected
to overhead wires everywhere in town, need not shutdown during
thunderstorms. Single point earth ground is how effective
protection can be installed for tens of times less money
compared to plug-in protectors.

Returning to the OP's question. Asus motherboard life
expectancy can be preserved by addressing technical issues
such as the power supply. Too many power supplies (especially
those sold only on price) are missing essential functions -
such as circuits that protect motherboard. For typically
destructive transients, earthing every incoming utility to a
single point earth ground is essential. Connection made
either by hardware or via a 'whole house' protector. A good
power supply and a good single point earth ground is essential
to Asus motherboard life expectancy. And, or course, static
electric precautions since a static electric shock today can
cause a motherboard failure tomorrow or next month.

UPS is for data protection. Plug-in UPS does not provide
effective hardware protection. Anything inside a UPS that
would preserve life of a Asus motherboard are functions inside
a minimally acceptable power supply.

Travis King wrote:
> What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I
> take good care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the
> computer for the most part constantly except when I leave town or
> do something with the inside of the computer. Current MB
> temperature is at 30 C.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

YOu really are a pretentious little prick.
Lets see your CV and practical experience. How many computing facilites have
you installed or designed? How many transmitter towers have you designed
and supervised the installation? How many grounding systems have you
designed for x-mitters?

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41F06001.BD14A130@hotmail.com...
> Review some false claims confronted in this thread followed
> by an answer to the OP's original question.
>
> Surge protectors don't operate fast enough. Claim was made
> based upon insufficient technical knowledge. Claim confronted
> with numbers. Author no longer makes that claim.
>
> "in this country buildings are well enough grounded to be
> safe in most circumstances". But that grounding is for human
> safety. Earthing for transistor safety is significantly
> different. We still don't build as if the transistor exists.
> Authors eventually abandoned that claim.
>
> Ground Fault indicators and joules were noted in UPS as if
> these provided hardware protection. Demonstrated was that
> Ground Fault Indicator does not and could not detect a failed
> earth ground. That joules alone don't prove protection is
> being provided (which explains many 'protectors' with
> insufficient joules). Author never challenged that facts;
> having noted that grounding requirement in an earlier post.
>
> "the cost to take extraordinary precautions to protect
> against rare events is probably not worth it". And so he
> would recommend spending $15 or $50 per protected appliance on
> ineffective plug-in protectors rather than $1 per protected
> appliance for an effective 'whole house' protector? He would
> spend $thoundands on ineffective protectors? No wonder he
> thought protection costs so much. The effective protector
> costs tens of times less money. Author conceded that fact.
>
> "uncontrolled power loss does impact the life expectancy of
> the hardware systems" was stated only based upon a personal
> opinion. Supporting facts were never provided. No components
> could be identified as damaged by uncontrolled power loss.
> Electronics sees same power down whether it is from an
> unexpected power loss or normal shutdown. If unexpected power
> loss impacts hardware life expectancy, then so does normal
> power off. Author never could say why power loss was so
> destructive nor could he identify parts that are damaged.
> Author repeatedly made claims but could not explain why normal
> power down also did not do same damage.
>
> Once it was apparent that he could not challenge facts, an
> author then resorted to claiming I did not have practical
> experience. Even when examples of extensive design and
> operation experience were provided, he continued his claims.
> Why? He had no facts. He was left only to claim I could not
> know the facts; only he could be correct because he had
> experience (without the essential underlying theory).
>
> The discussion ended here. Not able to dispute the facts -
> starting with a myth that surge protectors operate too slow -
> author is now left claiming only he has worldly experience.
> Implied is an admission that the author also has no 'book
> learning'. Author is even invited to define essential
> functions that must be inside a power supply. He cannot.
> Common among those who recommend a plug-in UPS to protect
> hardware but don't know why.
>
> One claim never made: a warranty proves that plug-in UPSes
> or power strip protectors are effective hardware protection.
> That would be another common myth that others use when
> technical knowledge is insufficient.
>
> Fact remains that a protector is only as effective as its
> earth ground. Earthing is how serious, high reliability
> facilities have done it for generations. Earthing is why the
> telephone company's $multi-million dollar computer, connected
> to overhead wires everywhere in town, need not shutdown during
> thunderstorms. Single point earth ground is how effective
> protection can be installed for tens of times less money
> compared to plug-in protectors.
>
> Returning to the OP's question. Asus motherboard life
> expectancy can be preserved by addressing technical issues
> such as the power supply. Too many power supplies (especially
> those sold only on price) are missing essential functions -
> such as circuits that protect motherboard. For typically
> destructive transients, earthing every incoming utility to a
> single point earth ground is essential. Connection made
> either by hardware or via a 'whole house' protector. A good
> power supply and a good single point earth ground is essential
> to Asus motherboard life expectancy. And, or course, static
> electric precautions since a static electric shock today can
> cause a motherboard failure tomorrow or next month.
>
> UPS is for data protection. Plug-in UPS does not provide
> effective hardware protection. Anything inside a UPS that
> would preserve life of a Asus motherboard are functions inside
> a minimally acceptable power supply.
>
> Travis King wrote:
> > What's probably the life expectancy of my A7V333 motherboard if I
> > take good care of it? It has 2 years on it right now. I run the
> > computer for the most part constantly except when I leave town or
> > do something with the inside of the computer. Current MB
> > temperature is at 30 C.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Another example that notritenoteri has no technical
knowledge and provides no accurate technical facts.
notritenoteri posts, in utter frustration, what he 'feels' to
be true - reality be damned:

notritenoteri wrote:
> YOu really are a pretentious little prick. ...

Meantime, things that preserve life expectancy of an Asus
motherboard include minimally acceptable power supply
(provided with written specificatons), properly earthed 'whole
house' protector, and no static electric discharges into
electronics. Had notritenoteri first learned basic facts,
then notritenoteri would not be posting insults.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Hi,

Interesting thread.

Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
#Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
#actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
#to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
#the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.

I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.

But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
other equipment died.

In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.

I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.

Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: kmarsh at charm dot net | Close the VT SVC Ctr boondoggle and
WWW: http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh | return services to local CIS offices!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

That UPS took a hit equally with computer. Learn how the
circuit is built. The surge hit both computer and UPS at same
time. The UPS apparently was damaged. Therefore it provided
no effective protection. But that same transient was too
small to overwhelm protection in the computer. IOW eliminate
the UPS and computer still would not be damaged.

The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?

Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
protection. He used called junk science reasoning.

Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
ground connection.

The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
electrical devices survived.

Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
that say Ken has promoted a scam.

Ken Marsh wrote:
> Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
> #Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
> #actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
> #to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
> #the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>
> I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
> my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
> equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>
> But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
> beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
> other equipment died.
>
> In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
> events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
> couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
> lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
> spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
> power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>
> I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
> the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
> spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
> protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
> all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
> team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>
> Ken.

 

[Paul]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <8HeKd.11$_C5.1574@news.abs.net>, kmarsh@charm.net wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Interesting thread.
>
> Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
> #Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
> #actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
> #to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
> #the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>
> I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
> my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
> equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>
> But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
> beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
> other equipment died.
>
> In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
> events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
> couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
> lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
> spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
> power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>
> I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
> the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
> spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
> protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
> all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
> team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>
> Ken.

My purpose in explaining this, is to point out the difference
in circuit topology, between two classes of products. When I
got my "UPS", I couldn't figure out why it ran so cool to the
touch, until I happened to stumble on an article explaining
the difference.

Even though the SPS is a "straight wire" under normal
circumstances, there is nothing stopping the designer of
a SPS from throwing in some MOV's, common mode chokes,
and all the other sundry items present in a power
strip.

What a SPS does buy you, is the ability to use the computer
without a crash, as long as the switchover time of the SPS
is shorter than the guaranteed holdup time specification for
your ATX PSU. (That is the reason I bought one, because of all
the power problems in my neighbourhood. Lots of one second
outages.) Any other properties of the unit could vary from
design to design - for example, I've heard of one design
that has brownout compensation that works without switching
to batteries.

I have one observation for you. I had a Sony Trinitron monitor
for about six years. We had plenty of lightning storms in those
years. For about the last two years of use, the Trinitron was
plugged into the SPS, along with any computers in the room.
I was away from the house one day, while there was a lightning
storm in the area. When I got home, the Trinitron was arcing
over on the HV cable inside the monitor, perhaps every half
hour. Coincidence ? (Note: In the time I've been in this house,
this is the only damaged device I've ever had, and it was plugged
into the UPS. The arcing in the monitor can be stopped by reducing
the resolution setting of the computer, and that is how I used it
until I picked up another monitor.) As with any observation
like this, a single data point is worthless. But it does make
me wonder whether there can be situations where a SPS switching
over in the middle of some kind of transient condition, could
cause more damage than it stops. Could a SPS "chatter" ?
Since I wasn't in the room at the time, I'll never know
exactly what happened. The fact that an expensive UPS
never "reconfigures" itself, eliminates some of these
possibilities. And that is why I explained the
differences.

Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> That UPS took a hit equally with computer. Learn how the
> circuit is built. The surge hit both computer and UPS at same
> time. The UPS apparently was damaged. Therefore it provided
> no effective protection. But that same transient was too
> small to overwhelm protection in the computer. IOW eliminate
> the UPS and computer still would not be damaged.
>

If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work you wouldn't be
making the statements you are. The UPS is before the computer in the
circuit. The transient has to go Through the UPS to affect the
"protected" components. The protected components do NOT have to see the
same transient that the UPS does. The UPS can be destroyed and not allow
any power through. This may not always be the case but in most cases
this is true. While other means of protecting equipment should be
considered no One method is enough.


> The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
> components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
> protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
> the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?
>
> Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
> better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
> in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
> provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
> the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
> recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
> is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
> protection. He used called junk science reasoning.
>
> Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
> earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
> forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
> Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
> numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
> half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
> filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
> THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
> Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
> ground connection.
>
> The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
> Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
> protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
> Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
> conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.
>
> Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
> building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
> switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
> destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
> devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
> conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
> electrical devices survived.
>
> Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
> dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
> the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
> effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
> claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
> electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
> per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
> that say Ken has promoted a scam.
>
> Ken Marsh wrote:
>
>>Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
>>#Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>>#actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>>#to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>>#the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>>
>>I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
>>my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
>>equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>>
>>But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
>>beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
>>other equipment died.
>>
>>In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
>>events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
>>couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
>>lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
>>spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
>>power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>>
>>I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
>>the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
>>spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
>>protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
>>all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
>>team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>>
>>Ken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

x-no-archive: yes:
gee guy with no CV HAve you new laws of physics where you are? MAYbe
you should stop wiring UPSs and PC in parallel? T hen they wouldn't see
the surge at exactly the same time. LAst I heard but maybe on your
planet it is different but the first device in a series "sees" the surge
before the next one up stream. Do you know something different?

Please share!
> That UPS took a hit equally with computer. Learn how the
> circuit is built. The surge hit both computer and UPS at same
> time. The UPS apparently was damaged. Therefore it provided
> no effective protection. But that same transient was too
> small to overwhelm protection in the computer. IOW eliminate
> the UPS and computer still would not be damaged.
>
> The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
> components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
> protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
> the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?
>
> Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
> better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
> in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
> provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
> the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
> recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
> is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
> protection. He used called junk science reasoning.
>
> Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
> earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
> forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
> Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
> numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
> half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
> filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
> THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
> Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
> ground connection.
>
> The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
> Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
> protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
> Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
> conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.
>
> Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
> building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
> switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
> destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
> devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
> conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
> electrical devices survived.
>
> Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
> dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
> the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
> effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
> claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
> electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
> per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
> that say Ken has promoted a scam.
>
> Ken Marsh wrote:
>
>>Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
>>#Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>>#actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>>#to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>>#the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>>
>>I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
>>my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
>>equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>>
>>But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
>>beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
>>other equipment died.
>>
>>In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
>>events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
>>couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
>>lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
>>spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
>>power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>>
>>I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
>>the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
>>spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
>>protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
>>all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
>>team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>>
>>Ken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

By SPS, I assume you mean an continuously on-line or
interactive UPS. First what does the destructive transient
seek? Earth ground. What will stop the transient from
finding earth ground? Nothing because even miles of sky could
not stop that transient. Electrically, the transient is from
a current source. That means voltage will increase, as
necessary, to overwhelm any blocking protector circuit or
common mode choke. The UPS - whether a switchover to battery
type or continuously on-line type - will not stop, block,
absorb, or filter that transient. Protection means earthing a
transient BEFORE it can enter a building. Earth a transient
closer to its source and not at the protected appliance. Any
attempt to stop, block, or filter that transient adjacent to
the computer .... well that protection is already inside both
computer and monitor. Such protectors accomplish nothing.

Why was your monitor arcing? As forensic scientists say,
the best evidence is in the dead body. Apparently an autopsy
to that monitor was not performed. Therefore we cannot say
exactly how damage occurred. But we have learned this science
even before WWII. Nothing will effectively block, stop,
filter, or absorb destructive transients no matter how many
myths say otherwise. No plug-in UPS even claims to perform
that function - once we look at detailed numerical specs (no
wonder they make those specs so hard to obtain).

Reality demonstrated by previous posters:
"network card and modem not working" on 3 Sept 2003 in
newsgroup microsoft.public.windowsme.hardware
http://tinyurl.com/5h82o and
"Whole house surge suppressors" in alt.home.repair on 12 Jul
2004 at
http://tinyurl.com/6gl67
> A classic case of this is proven at the School District where
> I work. Every electrical storm would blow the phone system
> cards in the switch after a major remodel to the tune of
> $2000 - $5000. All kinds of surge protection blah blah.
> The "brains" came in scratched their heads. I have been
> reading your posts for a long time on this. I said lets
> find and install a GOOD ground.
>
> Problem solved. Has NOT happened since.

Paul wrote:
> My purpose in explaining this, is to point out the difference
> in circuit topology, between two classes of products. When I
> got my "UPS", I couldn't figure out why it ran so cool to the
> touch, until I happened to stumble on an article explaining
> the difference.
>
> Even though the SPS is a "straight wire" under normal
> circumstances, there is nothing stopping the designer of
> a SPS from throwing in some MOV's, common mode chokes,
> and all the other sundry items present in a power
> strip.
>
> What a SPS does buy you, is the ability to use the computer
> without a crash, as long as the switchover time of the SPS
> is shorter than the guaranteed holdup time specification for
> your ATX PSU. (That is the reason I bought one, because of all
> the power problems in my neighbourhood. Lots of one second
> outages.) Any other properties of the unit could vary from
> design to design - for example, I've heard of one design
> that has brownout compensation that works without switching
> to batteries.
>
> I have one observation for you. I had a Sony Trinitron monitor
> for about six years. We had plenty of lightning storms in those
> years. For about the last two years of use, the Trinitron was
> plugged into the SPS, along with any computers in the room.
> I was away from the house one day, while there was a lightning
> storm in the area. When I got home, the Trinitron was arcing
> over on the HV cable inside the monitor, perhaps every half
> hour. Coincidence ? (Note: In the time I've been in this house,
> this is the only damaged device I've ever had, and it was plugged
> into the UPS. The arcing in the monitor can be stopped by reducing
> the resolution setting of the computer, and that is how I used it
> until I picked up another monitor.) As with any observation
> like this, a single data point is worthless. But it does make
> me wonder whether there can be situations where a SPS switching
> over in the middle of some kind of transient condition, could
> cause more damage than it stops. Could a SPS "chatter" ?
> Since I wasn't in the room at the time, I'll never know
> exactly what happened. The fact that an expensive UPS
> never "reconfigures" itself, eliminates some of these
> possibilities. And that is why I explained the
> differences.
>
> Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

First, a transient is sent from left to right down a wire.
Where does a wave first appear? At left end; where the
transient enters? Of course not. This is basic electrical
knowledge. A wave first appears on the right side - at the
far end. Nothing new here. One who did not know this would
jump to wild assumptions that electricity travels like ocean
waves. It does not, as demonstrated where an electrical wave
first appears. Point #1: plug-in manufacturers hope you will
erroneously 'assume' electrical transients are like ocean
waves.

More about how electricity works. First the current appears
everywhere in that circuit. Then as voltage increases,
something (or many things) in that circuit fails. Computer and
UPS are confronted by same transient equally - in direct
contradiction to popular myths.

Second, how does a protector circuit connect to AC mains?
Well disconnect computer from UPS. Plug both UPS and computer
into the same wall receptacle. To a destructive transient,
the circuit has not changed. Protector circuit connects in
parallel to that computer - not in series as you have
assumed. They are not called 'series' mode protectors for
good reason. They are called 'shunt' mode protectors because
they connect in parallel - not in series.

Third, the protector circuit is constructed using MOVs. Do
MOVs sit between the computer and AC mains? If yes, then
computer would never get power. MOVs connect to AC mains just
like another light bulb. They connect in parallel. Their
'protection' is found on both sides on the UPS. In the
meantime, a destructive transient is longitudinal mode. That
means MOVs either will not see the transient (voltage is
equal on both sides), or MOVs provide the transient with more
destructive paths into an adjacent computer. Learn the
different transient modes so that myth purveyors cannot lie.
The manufacturer hopes you will assume all transients are
normal mode - to hype ineffective protection. More electrical
engineering terms that say the UPS does not provide effective
protection. More information that becomes obvious with
numerical specs from that manufacturer.

A transient confronted UPS and computer simultaneously.
Internal protection inside computer was sufficient. Computer
not damaged while adjacent UPS was damaged. Protection inside
UPS was grossly undersized - to promote more myths. An
effective protector is not damaged by a transient. #4 reason
why that UPS was not effective protection.

To sell ineffective protectors on myths, a UPS manufacturer
hopes you don't learn how electricity works. If one does not
know #1 - where the transient first appears - then one is a
target for myths encouraged by that plug-in UPS manufacturer.
If one did not know that protector is shunt mode - point #2 -
then again they promote myths. Without knowledge of MOVs and
longitudinal transients, then myth purveyors hope you never
learn point #3.

But again, the bottom line. A surge protector is only as
effective as its earth ground. Where is earth ground in that
UPS? Notice I did not say safety ground or equipment ground.
Earth ground. Major difference. UPS has all but no earth
ground. Therefore UPS does not even claim protection from the
typically destructive transient. No earth ground means no
effective protection.

Three fundamental facts of electrical engineering and a
fourth about MOVs say the plug-in UPS does not provide
effective protection. I learned far more than laws of
physics. I have a few generations of doing this stuff - both
theory and 'electrons under my fingernails'. Plug-in
protectors do not even claim to protect from a typically
destructive transient.

notritenottteri wrote:
> gee guy with no CV HAve you new laws of physics where you are? MAYbe
> you should stop wiring UPSs and PC in parallel? T hen they wouldn't see
> the surge at exactly the same time. LAst I heard but maybe on your
> planet it is different but the first device in a series "sees" the surge
> before the next one up stream. Do you know something different?
>
> Please share!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

The technicals are posted to notritenottteri who is more
interest in learning. You clearly do not have UPS schematics
nor do you comprehend how those protector circuits work.
However, how many protectors have you built in the past few
decades? How many transients did your designs stop or fail to
stop. You see, Michael, I have built this stuff before there
were PC. Had some interesting successes and a few spectacular
failures. IOW I learned the concept both from theoretical
sources (the manufacturer data sheets and application notes)
AND buy building and testing this stuff with lightning.

Now maybe you want to apologize for your unfounded
statement:
> If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work ...

Plug the computer into a UPS or plug same computer into the
wall receptacle shared by the UPS. To destructive surges, it
remains the same circuit. Again, I provide facts to
notritenottteri who was instead interested in learning before
he knew things. Read that reply if you want to learn about
surge protection.

"Michael W. Ryder" wrote:
> If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work you wouldn't be
> making the statements you are. The UPS is before the computer in the
> circuit. The transient has to go Through the UPS to affect the
> "protected" components. The protected components do NOT have to see the
> same transient that the UPS does. The UPS can be destroyed and not allow
> any power through. This may not always be the case but in most cases
> this is true. While other means of protecting equipment should be
> considered no One method is enough.
>
> > The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
> > components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
> > protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
> > the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?
> >
> > Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
> > better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
> > in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
> > provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
> > the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
> > recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
> > is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
> > protection. He used called junk science reasoning.
> >
> > Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
> > earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
> > forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
> > Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
> > numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
> > half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
> > filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
> > THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
> > Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
> > ground connection.
> >
> > The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
> > Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
> > protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
> > Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
> > conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.
> >
> > Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
> > building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
> > switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
> > destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
> > devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
> > conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
> > electrical devices survived.
> >
> > Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
> > dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
> > the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
> > effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
> > claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
> > electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
> > per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
> > that say Ken has promoted a scam.
> >
> > Ken Marsh wrote:
> >
> >>Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
> >>#Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
> >>#actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
> >>#to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
> >>#the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
> >>
> >>I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
> >>my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
> >>equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
> >>
> >>But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
> >>beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
> >>other equipment died.
> >>
> >>In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
> >>events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
> >>couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
> >>lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
> >>spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
> >>power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
> >>
> >>I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
> >>the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
> >>spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
> >>protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
> >>all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
> >>team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
> >>
> >>Ken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

w_tom wrote:

> The technicals are posted to notritenottteri who is more
> interest in learning. You clearly do not have UPS schematics
> nor do you comprehend how those protector circuits work.
> However, how many protectors have you built in the past few
> decades? How many transients did your designs stop or fail to
> stop. You see, Michael, I have built this stuff before there
> were PC. Had some interesting successes and a few spectacular
> failures. IOW I learned the concept both from theoretical
> sources (the manufacturer data sheets and application notes)
> AND buy building and testing this stuff with lightning.
>
> Now maybe you want to apologize for your unfounded
> statement:
>

You sound just like a tech I used to know more than 20 years ago, just
enough knowledge to be dangerous. The first time I met him was when he
told one of our customers that they had lost all their data. All that
was wrong was that the belt on the hard drive had gone bad. 5 minutes
after he replaced the belt the machine was up and running with No data
loss. Next he told another customer that the reason they were having
all their hard drive problems was that they were too close to the dam
(Hoover Dam)!
The hard drive problems were caused by transients in the line from a
number of heavy industrial machines in the area. Placing a whole
building isolator fixed part of the problem. Going to a UPS where All
the power was generated by the battery solved the rest of the problem.
Just because you have solved a problem in the past does not mean you are
now omniscient or that all problems can be fixed the same way. If you
are so good at power solutions how come you are not working for some one
like APC?


>>If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work ...
>
>
> Plug the computer into a UPS or plug same computer into the
> wall receptacle shared by the UPS. To destructive surges, it
> remains the same circuit. Again, I provide facts to
> notritenottteri who was instead interested in learning before
> he knew things. Read that reply if you want to learn about
> surge protection.
>

How much electrical engineering training have you had?


> "Michael W. Ryder" wrote:
>
>>If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work you wouldn't be
>>making the statements you are. The UPS is before the computer in the
>>circuit. The transient has to go Through the UPS to affect the
>>"protected" components. The protected components do NOT have to see the
>>same transient that the UPS does. The UPS can be destroyed and not allow
>>any power through. This may not always be the case but in most cases
>>this is true. While other means of protecting equipment should be
>>considered no One method is enough.
>>
>>
>>> The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
>>>components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
>>>protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
>>>the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?
>>>
>>> Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
>>>better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
>>>in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
>>>provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
>>>the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
>>>recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
>>>is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
>>>protection. He used called junk science reasoning.
>>>
>>> Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
>>>earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
>>>forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
>>>Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
>>>numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
>>>half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
>>>filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
>>>THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
>>>Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
>>>ground connection.
>>>
>>> The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
>>>Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
>>>protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
>>>Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
>>>conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.
>>>
>>> Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
>>>building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
>>>switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
>>>destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
>>>devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
>>>conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
>>>electrical devices survived.
>>>
>>> Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
>>>dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
>>>the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
>>>effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
>>>claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
>>>electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
>>>per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
>>>that say Ken has promoted a scam.
>>>
>>>Ken Marsh wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
>>>>#Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>>>>#actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>>>>#to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>>>>#the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>>>>
>>>>I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why each of
>>>>my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip, which are
>>>>equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>>>>
>>>>But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
>>>>beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
>>>>other equipment died.
>>>>
>>>>In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
>>>>events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I got a
>>>>couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
>>>>lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
>>>>spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a couple of
>>>>power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
>>>>the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
>>>>spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
>>>>protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
>>>>all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially when
>>>>team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>>>>
>>>>Ken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

x-no-archive: yes:
Tommy is an expert by definition that's a guy from 50 miles out from the
location he needed. Unfortunately the industry is full of them. The
usually masquerade under the guise of consultants.
Lincoln was wrong you can fool some of the people ALL the time!
> w_tom wrote:
>
>> The technicals are posted to notritenottteri who is more
>> interest in learning. You clearly do not have UPS schematics
>> nor do you comprehend how those protector circuits work. However, how
>> many protectors have you built in the past few
>> decades? How many transients did your designs stop or fail to
>> stop. You see, Michael, I have built this stuff before there
>> were PC. Had some interesting successes and a few spectacular
>> failures. IOW I learned the concept both from theoretical
>> sources (the manufacturer data sheets and application notes)
>> AND buy building and testing this stuff with lightning.
>>
>> Now maybe you want to apologize for your unfounded
>> statement:
>>
>
> You sound just like a tech I used to know more than 20 years ago, just
> enough knowledge to be dangerous. The first time I met him was when he
> told one of our customers that they had lost all their data. All that
> was wrong was that the belt on the hard drive had gone bad. 5 minutes
> after he replaced the belt the machine was up and running with No data
> loss. Next he told another customer that the reason they were having
> all their hard drive problems was that they were too close to the dam
> (Hoover Dam)!
> The hard drive problems were caused by transients in the line from a
> number of heavy industrial machines in the area. Placing a whole
> building isolator fixed part of the problem. Going to a UPS where All
> the power was generated by the battery solved the rest of the problem.
> Just because you have solved a problem in the past does not mean you are
> now omniscient or that all problems can be fixed the same way. If you
> are so good at power solutions how come you are not working for some one
> like APC?
>
>
>>> If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Plug the computer into a UPS or plug same computer into the
>> wall receptacle shared by the UPS. To destructive surges, it
>> remains the same circuit. Again, I provide facts to
>> notritenottteri who was instead interested in learning before
>> he knew things. Read that reply if you want to learn about
>> surge protection.
>>
>
> How much electrical engineering training have you had?
>
>
>> "Michael W. Ryder" wrote:
>>
>>> If you even had a clue as to how most UPS systems work you wouldn't be
>>> making the statements you are. The UPS is before the computer in the
>>> circuit. The transient has to go Through the UPS to affect the
>>> "protected" components. The protected components do NOT have to see the
>>> same transient that the UPS does. The UPS can be destroyed and not allow
>>> any power through. This may not always be the case but in most cases
>>> this is true. While other means of protecting equipment should be
>>> considered no One method is enough.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The UPS provides no effective protection. Therefore its
>>>> components (necessary so they can claim some microscopic
>>>> protection) were destroyed by a transient too small to harm
>>>> the adjacent computer. Tell me where the protection was?
>>>>
>>>> Power strips downline of the UPS are suppose to do any
>>>> better? The UPS contains the exact same protector circuit as
>>>> in those power strips. You tell me. If the UPS does not
>>>> provide effective protection, then why are power strips with
>>>> the same circuit suppose to do anything better? The reason he
>>>> recommends those power strips? He read on retail shelves that
>>>> is it a surge protector. Therefore he assumed it is surge
>>>> protection. He used called junk science reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> Effective protector shunt transients 'less than 10 feet' to
>>>> earth AND must not be damaged. Both that UPS and power strips
>>>> forget to mention earthing and the necessary 10 feet. Then
>>>> Ken Marsh will promote a myth. Had he first learned the
>>>> numbers and principles, then he could have seen through their
>>>> half truths. He did not. He even promoted the myth about
>>>> filtering inside a power strip. They got Ken Marsh to ignore
>>>> THE most critical protection component - earth ground. Ken
>>>> Marsh recommends protectors that have no effective earth
>>>> ground connection.
>>>>
>>>> The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts.
>>>> Neither damage electronics. The UPS does not claim effective
>>>> protection from harmonics, noise, or destructive transients.
>>>> Protection is provided inside the computer power supply in
>>>> conjunction with the properly earthed 'whole house' protector.
>>>>
>>>> Why did other equipment die? IOW everything else in the
>>>> building including smoke detectors, GFCI outlet, dimmer
>>>> switches, furnace controls, dishwasher, etc all were
>>>> destroyed? What protected them? Oh. Some other household
>>>> devices survived without any protector? Ken Marsh - your
>>>> conclusions are not valid until you can explain other
>>>> electrical devices survived.
>>>>
>>>> Ken Marsh recommends we spend hundreds or thousands of
>>>> dollars on protectors that don't even claim protection from
>>>> the one type of destructive transient. They are not even
>>>> effectively earthed - therefore could never accomplish what he
>>>> claims. However Ken Marsh could have protected those
>>>> electronics - and many other household electronics - for $1
>>>> per protected appliance. Even the money is damning numbers
>>>> that say Ken has promoted a scam.
>>>>
>>>> Ken Marsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
>>>>> #Cheap UPSes offer no protection at all, as they are
>>>>> #actually SPS (standby power supplies) - they are a "straight wire"
>>>>> #to power spikes, and the unit only cuts over to batteries if
>>>>> #the AC power dies for enough milliseconds.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with part of the statement, about spikes... which is why
>>>>> each of
>>>>> my cheap UPS's are downstream of a good ($50-$75) power strip,
>>>>> which are
>>>>> equipped with EMI/RFI filtering, few-nanosecond clamping, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> But really, "no protection at all"? That's a very strong statemnent. I
>>>>> beg to differ. At work we had a UPS "take the hit" and save a PC while
>>>>> other equipment died.
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition, I live in an area of frequent, spontaneous electrical
>>>>> events, and our home computers used to reboot or shutdown a lot. I
>>>>> got a
>>>>> couple of cheap UPS's (SPS, whatever), now the UPS clicks when the
>>>>> lights flicker but the computers keep on running. I haven't had one
>>>>> spontaneous reboot/shutdown since I plugged them in. During a
>>>>> couple of
>>>>> power outages they have allowed sane, unhurried shutdowns.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are any number of electrical conditions that would fry
>>>>> the cheap UPS/SPS, and sometimes the computer with it, or cause a
>>>>> spontaneous shutdowns/reboots. But given the money invested versus the
>>>>> protection I've received, I think a cheap consumer UPS is a good deal
>>>>> all around, certainly a lot of protection for the money, especially
>>>>> when
>>>>> team with a good filtering, clamping power strip.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

In article <AQvKd.106262$w62.101805@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
mwryder@_worldnet.att.net says...
> problems were caused by transients in the line from a
> number of heavy industrial machines in the area. Placing a whole
> building isolator fixed part of the problem. Going to a UPS where All
> the power was generated by the battery solved the rest of the problem.

This has been my experience in both residential and commercial
applications. Using 10KVA regulating transformers on problem lines
combined with UPS units inline down-stream of the transformers worked
wonders for large inductive load noise (as did soft-start units for
large motors)...

In residential and small office settings, quality UPS units have made
great differences in down-time and faults with both hardware and data.

--
--
spamfree999@rrohio.com
(Remove 999 to reply to me)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Hi,

Paul <nospam@needed.com> wrote:
#I have one observation for you. I had a Sony Trinitron monitor
#for about six years. We had plenty of lightning storms in those
#years. For about the last two years of use, the Trinitron was
#plugged into the SPS, along with any computers in the room.
#I was away from the house one day, while there was a lightning
#storm in the area. When I got home, the Trinitron was arcing
#over on the HV cable inside the monitor, perhaps every half
#hour. Coincidence ?

Heck, I don't know.

I was once in a house (my house) struck by lightning. Amongst other
damage, it took out the UHF of an old TV while leaving the VHF alone. It
took out a stereo receiver and left the speakers, tape deck (this was a
while ago) and turntable alone.

There are an infinite number of failure modes, I always like to say.

#...
#The fact that an expensive UPS
#never "reconfigures" itself, eliminates some of these
#possibilities. And that is why I explained the
#differences.

And I thank you for doing so, it was interesting and informative. I just
felt compelled to point out that SPS-type products do offer some reasonable
amount of protection at a reasonable price point.

Since you posted this, I have also noticed that some recent SPS-type
products are dropping the UPS/Uninteruptable terminology. This might be
a bow to your logic, or just a poor attempt at product differentiation,
I don't know.

Ken.
--
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[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus (More info?)

Hi,

This response is for everyone else, as I doubt mr. w_tom is up to
listening to reason.

First of all, I never recommended putting a power strip downstream of a
UPS for protection. I recommended putting a UPS (or SPS whatever)
downstream of a power strip, the simple idea that the $75 power strip
protects the $500 UPS/SPS. It is too bad you spent so much time on this
straw-man attack.

It was not a house where the electrical drama took place, but at work. A
higher-voltage line got crossed with an incoming line. When every
computer dies on a circuit except those on power strips and the one with
the toasted UPS, it doesn't take a lot of "numbers" to figure out what's
going on.

"He even promoted the myth about filtering inside a power strip."

You seem to make the contention that it is impossible to filter EMI/RFI
without a seperate, short ground wire, or at least such a ground on the
premise system? Absurd. You can take any number of quality power strips,
inject noise on the input side, and watch the cleaned-up output on the
oscilloscope. Does it make any difference to a PC switching power
supply? Maybe not, but my 5.1 speaker system amp is plugged into the
same circuit, as is my broadband cable modem's wall wart, both of which
use transformers. Maybe they have good filtering themselves, probably
not in the case of the speaker amp, as the whole 5.1 system costs less
than my either my Brick Wall or even my old Curtis.

"The UPS provided protection from blackouts and brownouts. Neither
damage electronics."

Brownouts during disk writes can render them useless, with attendant loss
of data.

"Even the money is damning numbers that say Ken has promoted a scam."

All I said was, they provide some protection, and I'll stand by that statement.
And you, you can stay in my kill file.

Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: kmarsh at charm dot net | Just say "no" to liars SCO and Soyo
WWW: http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh | Return services to local CIS offices!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------