Microsoft Advised to Not Brand "Home Basic" Windows as Vista

[Kary]

Just wait, have you been chewed out because the monitor you just fixed for a customer now (GASP) has to be plugged into the wall

 

[NSSwift]

What machine will run Windows XP Home that will not run Windows XP Pro?

This is the first time that Microsoft has released a Windows product that has any significantly different requirements between its versions. XP Media Center Edition can only be sold bundled with PCs that support it, so that doesn't count.

Why would someone who is not tech savvy have any idea that a "Vista Capable" PC wouldn't support all the features of "Windows Vista," including Aero?

Microsoft might have been able to avoid this problem if those darn stickers had read "Windows Vista Home Basic Capable" instead. At least then people might have thought to themselves, "What's this 'Home Basic' thing? Is it something I need to worry about?"

 

[m3kt3k]

Kary not that but I was once yelled at that someone could not dial in and it was the fault of the ISP I worked at. When I asked them to check the line they said the power was out but before I could say anything they Screamed " I HAVE A FUCKEN UPS I KNOW WHAT IM DOING" when I asked why he called from a Cell he said the phone system was down when they lost power. Before hanging up I said call back if it dosent work when they get power. Honestly users are the biggest problem LOL.

 

[tayb]

[citation][nom]MDillenbeck[/nom]Just to represent the other side...I think when the average customer hears "Vista Capable" they assume that it is capable of running Windows Vista. What do they know of Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, and Vista Ultimate - the machine says Vista and nothing more.Now, had they been branded "Vista Home Basic Capable", then customers would have had a clear picture that their was only one product with Vista in the title that would run on the machine.THAT is why customers are feeling deceived.I mean, if you bought a vehicle labeled "off road capable" and learned it could only drive off road on dry dirt paths with no greater than a 15 degree incline, you'd be pretty pissed off when you try to slug through some mud.Finally, when calling all these people idiots, remember the Dilbert Principle - once we realize that we all have times when we are incredibly brain dead and stupid, then maybe we can learn to sympathize with others rather than condemn them.[/citation]

Excuse me but what operating system is Windows Vista Home Basic? Is it Windows XP? Mac OSX 10.5? Windows 7? Or is it Windows VISTA. The label says it is capable of running Windows Vista it is up to you to determine IF you want to run it and what level of feature set you will be able to run with said hardware.

This is ridiculous. How about I sue Electronic Arts because my computer represent "minimum requirements" on the box and I come home to find out I have to put all the settings at extremely low and it doesn't look as good as I thought it would??? My computer is capable of running the game but not capable of all the bells and whistles that might come along with it if I had a more powerful system. My fault or EA's fault?

Just a bunch of idiots trying to make a quick buck because they bought a cheap pile of crap laptop only to find out that it was a cheap pile of crap laptop.

 

[descendency]

The problem here is that Windows Home Basic is very little more than Windows XP Home with a new UI. People are finding out that Windows Vista Home Basic is utter crap and starting to complain. Vista Premium and Ultimate (which are fairly stable good OSs) are way more feature intensive (too feature intensive in Ultimates case) and calling them the same is very close to fraudulent.

 

[hellwig]

The problem is marketing. Microsoft showed off the Aero interface, but never made it clear the Aero is not Vista. Hell, I said it from the start that Microsoft could release Aero for XP if they wanted to, but they tied it to vista to drive up sales. Problem is, people bought Vista Capable Machines because there was no clear distinction between Vista and Aero. "Oooh, I want that fancy new Vista interface, better buy a Vista Capable machine."

On the flip side, I don't think that many people went out and bought a new "capable" machine for the sole purpose of getting a new Microsoft OS. Anyone who did is an idiot, I mean, talk about screwing over the early adopters, MS is the king. If you now anything about computers, you know to wait for SP1 before getting a news Windows version.

Most sales of capable computers were to people in the market solely for a new computer, not a new OS. Think about who buys capable-only machines? People buying cheap-ass Dell laptops and desktops running shitty Intel chipsets. They don't care what OS it runs, they just know they want Windows. As such, while I agree Microsoft was less than clear in their marketing, I can't imagine enough people bought a computer specifically for the vista capable label. Rather, they were simply buying the cheapest one they could find, and the promise of upgrading to Vista (for free once it was released) might have provided additional incentive.

If Microsoft had just released Vista AHEAD of the christmas market, they probably could have avoided this whole damn thing.

 

[tayb]

[citation][nom]descendency[/nom]The problem here is that Windows Home Basic is very little more than Windows XP Home with a new UI. People are finding out that Windows Vista Home Basic is utter crap and starting to complain. Vista Premium and Ultimate (which are fairly stable good OSs) are way more feature intensive (too feature intensive in Ultimates case) and calling them the same is very close to fraudulent.[/citation]

There is no problem. When you boot up Windows Vista Home Basic the log-in screens says "WINDOWS VISTA." I know it is a hard concept for some but saying Vista Home Basic isn't really Vista is akin to saying the Honda Civic EX isn't really a Honda Civic because it doesn't have the leather, sound system, and sunroof that the LX edition has. The EX is still a Honda Civic it just doesn't have the features that the LX has. Think of Vista Basic as the EX and Vista Premium as the LX. Still Vista and still a Honda.

 

[descendency]

[citation][nom]tayb[/nom]There is no problem. When you boot up Windows Vista Home Basic the log-in screens says "WINDOWS VISTA." I know it is a hard concept for some but saying Vista Home Basic isn't really Vista is akin to saying the Honda Civic EX isn't really a Honda Civic because it doesn't have the leather, sound system, and sunroof that the LX edition has. The EX is still a Honda Civic it just doesn't have the features that the LX has. Think of Vista Basic as the EX and Vista Premium as the LX. Still Vista and still a Honda.[/citation]
If I send you a modded copy of Windows 95 that says "Windows 7", does that make it windows 7?

 

[68vistacruiser]

Class-action lawsuit means the lawyers get everything and the consumer, nothing. I wonder if companies don't sue themselves just to keep the judgement low. Ford lost a lawsuit on it's Explorer SUV's, and they gave out $500 coupons towards the purchase of a new one! No wonder people won't buy from them anymore. Same for the other two. They build billion-dollar munufacturing plants in Brazil and come begging US taxpayers for a bail-out. So where is the money going? I bet to build another foreign manufacturing plant! Sorry for the off-topic end to this rant.

 

[cjl]

[citation][nom]descendency[/nom]If I send you a modded copy of Windows 95 that says "Windows 7", does that make it windows 7?[/citation]
Nope. That's a completely different set of code. Vista home basic on the other hand uses exactly the same code at the core as Vista Ultimate.

 

[ChrissyT]

Intel Exec Thanked Ballmer for Vista Capable Help

Some Intel hardware wasn't Aero compatible, and Microsoft changed the sticker policy.
THG readers and geeks know what to do before buying a new PC. Lot of people doesn't. Since Aero is shiny, they want a shiny desktop theme on their desktop.

When I chose Vista for my PC (2007), I considered the new features of Windows Vista : Security, DirectX, 64bit, networking. Aero was a detail.

In France, this subject is an internet troll. "Vista is crap", "Vista is incompatible with my ..."


Anyway, this class action is all about a damn sticker.

 

[eccentric909]

I stand by my statment. People are getting more and more "Take care of me" with a huge "ITS NOT FAIR" that tends to be a liberal point of view. I do support for a living. The number of people I meet that complain that there 500$ computer is not very fast and how its everyone elses fault is laughable. I Have even been told when I handed them the bill (for virus cleanup or whatever) that I should not charge them as its a service and the govt should pay for it or my favorite was I should not charge them because they are "POOR". I still get my check when I tell them I can just put all the porn viri back. Well if your poor then why do you have a computer, 3 cars, a house, Every cable channel known to man and a 60" tv.

I still do not see where this has anything to do with "liberal BS". Everyone wants something for free. I work support as well, have been for over 12 years now, never have I heard a customer complain saying they want the government to pay for their PC repairs.

That doesn't tend to be a liberal point of view..

You know, liberalism's definition is:
A political movement founded on the autonomy and personal freedom of the individual, progress and reform, and government by law with the consent of the governed.

In the US it stands for:
Liberalism in the United States is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring individual liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation, or from the existing class structure. ...

Maybe you're more referring to:
The modern liberal believes that government can and should play a positive role in the lives of its citizens, particularly in the lives of the disadvantaged. Government, for the progressive, is a champion of the downtrodden and an instrument for the improvement of humankind.

But, believe you me, beyond the occasional "liberal" idea of that internet access should be free, I've never once heard of politicians calling for free PC repairs. It's not a liberal mindset you're encountering, it's greed and human nature. People have tried to squirm their way out of paying for a bill, well before there were "liberals" and "conservatives". I think a better term for them is a "deadbeat".

I mean, unless you ask someone what their political views actually are, it's pretty difficult to brand them liberal or conservative. Believing that the government should take care of everything for you, is more of a communist mindset, rather than a modern American liberal. And I'm sorry, no matter how much or loud the far right pundits like Rush or Anne want to shout it from the rooftops, your modern American liberal or democrat does not share the same mindset of those who believe in pie in the sky communism.

Hell, even in quite a bit of Europe, which is far more left than the US, people still pay for PC repairs. lol

I'm not trying to attack you here, just get a bit annoyed when I see the term liberal or conservative bandied about incorrectly. Hell, just 50 years ago, the term liberal aligned more with those who call themselves conservatives today.

Liberalism after all:
Is not an ideology. Liberalism is best thought of as a standing argument based on a shared set of assumptions. This liberal argument is fought between two distinct kinds of liberals, classical liberals and modern liberals, whom Americans simply call "conservatives" and "liberals," respectively.

 

[thegh0st]

[citation][nom]captaincharisma[/nom]I guess there are some people out there who are too dumb to know what the word BASIC[/citation]

...uh wtf? I guess some people are too basic themselves to comprehend the article. No where does it say people do not understand what Vista Basic is. The fact people are mad and suing is BECAUSE they can ONLY run Vista Basic. It is not because they do not know what it is.

As far as the car analogy goes with the Honda - that is completely offbase. People know the features of a an EX and an LX (or they can hop inside either car and/or ask a salesman) so they can choose what to buy. The problem here is that people spent money on computers they might NOT have bought period because of a labeling system Microsoft came up with that did not have any easily identifiable fine print to explain ...Hey consumer, this do NOT mean you can run Vista Ultimate (you can just run Vista Basic). That is the issue plain and simple. Had some people known this or understood this along with understanding what Vista Basic is they would not have spent the money on a 400 or 500 dollar computer. They would have said something like - "screw it, I'ma stick with my old XP computer and wait until some other time down the road to think about Vista". The people suing for the most part are arguing they would not have spent the money they did to get a computer that does not do anything significantly more than the computer they already had. Perhaps they would not have bought a computer at all if it was their first one or would have bought a different one.

I'm by no means saying Microsoft advertised falsely - technically I think they are correct - but one could argue Microsoft left the labeling vague so as to garner more sells for themselves and partners (whether it is a known partner or not). And surely intel is not going to explain things when they know Microsoft will be blamed. They can sell more and don't have to get their hands dirty. None of the hardware manufactors/vendors had to. One of the things I think Microsoft should have done was had places where they sold to the public such as best buy or circuit city or whatever - they should have had these budget PC's with the version of Vista they were capable of running demo'ing the lesser product so people could see what they were getting and ask why it looked different. They also could have changed their labeling as was pointed out.

 

[tayb]

[citation][nom]thegh0st[/nom]...uh wtf? I guess some people are too basic themselves to comprehend the article. No where does it say people do not understand what Vista Basic is. The fact people are mad and suing is BECAUSE they can ONLY run Vista Basic. It is not because they do not know what it is.As far as the car analogy goes with the Honda - that is completely offbase. People know the features of a an EX and an LX (or they can hop inside either car and/or ask a salesman) so they can choose what to buy. The problem here is that people spent money on computers they might NOT have bought period because of a labeling system Microsoft came up with that did not have any easily identifiable fine print to explain ...Hey consumer, this do NOT mean you can run Vista Ultimate (you can just run Vista Basic). That is the issue plain and simple. Had some people known this or understood this along with understanding what Vista Basic is they would not have spent the money on a 400 or 500 dollar computer. They would have said something like - "screw it, I'ma stick with my old XP computer and wait until some other time down the road to think about Vista". The people suing for the most part are arguing they would not have spent the money they did to get a computer that does not do anything significantly more than the computer they already had. Perhaps they would not have bought a computer at all if it was their first one or would have bought a different one.I'm by no means saying Microsoft advertised falsely - technically I think they are correct - but one could argue Microsoft left the labeling vague so as to garner more sells for themselves and partners (whether it is a known partner or not). And surely intel is not going to explain things when they know Microsoft will be blamed. They can sell more and don't have to get their hands dirty. None of the hardware manufactors/vendors had to. One of the things I think Microsoft should have done was had places where they sold to the public such as best buy or circuit city or whatever - they should have had these budget PC's with the version of Vista they were capable of running demo'ing the lesser product so people could see what they were getting and ask why it looked different. They also could have changed their labeling as was pointed out.[/citation]

Yeah. The car analogy doesn't make sense. What DOES make sense is the people proclaiming that a basic versions of Vista isn't really Vista. The code is the same minus a few features but it "Isn't really Vista."

The car analogy makes perfect sense. Vista Home Basic is a version of Vista. Microsoft DOES NOT have to differentiate what version of Vista you might be able to run just as Tiburon Studioes doesn't have to put on the box a limitless number of hardware specs to tell you what settings you might be able to run. You buy a bare minimum computer you can expect to run A version of Vista which is EXACTLY what they were able to do.

Calling Vista Home Basic not Vista is ludicrous especially if you think the car analogy doesn't make sense.

 

[techtre2003]

Maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't most of these people have gotten their PCs from major retail stores? The major retail stores I know of have at least a 30 day return policy. So these people had at least 30 days to realize that they didn't have the neat see through windows. I know that wouldn't be true for everyone, but I'm sure it would apply in many cases.

And since this is a class action suite, I wonder how many people have actually brought this to a lawyer? Yes, some class action suites have merit, but I think a lot of them are dreamt up by lawyers trying to get rich quick since they are the ones who see the money anyway.

 

[Guest]

Technically they weren't lieing by branding the computers as "vista capable". However they were being more then slightly dishonest.

I'm willing to bet that the original branding was "vista basic capable", and then marketing got a hold of that and said no no no we cant put basic in there, just toss out the basic and well sell more.

Thats the problem, its technically correct, but its taking advantage of your average user who doesn't know a computer form a hair dryer.

And yes i think microsoft and any other company who uses 'slightly dishonest' marketing should be slapped on the hand for this. The customers shouldn't get anything, but fine em 50% of all related sales to pay off a tiny part of the national debt sounds good to me.

 

[squatchman]

I really don't think Microsoft is at fault here since the OEM-builders were the ones looking for some fancy "certified" sticker they can put on their case as a selling point. Which company was the one that pressured Microsoft into lowering the "Vista Capable" requirements, Dell?

The double standard here troubles me though, at first people complained that there were too many versions of vista at launch. Microsoft dropped a lot of the pork and now we're down to four distinct packages with 8 SKUs(32/64 bit). However, now it seems that people are complaining that "Vista Capable" isn't descriptive enough? Do we need Capable, Certified, 80plus, Enthusiast, Terror-Alert-between-orange-and-red, and others just to appease people's desire to have a fancy label?

Why not require system builders to only promise that a computer be able to run the software that comes installed on it? Not a very PC-centric way of thinking, and it even sounds a bit more Apple-like now that I read it again.

My favorite part of this whole deal is that Microsoft is now going to rename/repackage Vista as Windows 7 and everyone is going to love them for it. They did the same thing with Windows NT and called it Windows 2000 and eventually again, repackaging 2000 into XP.

 

[thegh0st]

[citation][nom]tayb[/nom]The car analogy makes perfect sense. Vista Home Basic is a version of Vista.[/citation]

What does NOT make sense is you. Try READING what I typed. I was explaining it from the people who are suing's point of view. Don't make stupid comments to me or perhaps read EVERYTHING I TYPED. I never said Vista Home was not a type of Vista duh. I said I think TECHNICALLY Microsoft is CORRECT. You even quoted it. Do you have any basic comprehension skills? Some how I doubt it.

The car analogy does not compare if you have comprehension skills...
1) you can sit in each car and see for yourself
2) each car has different badges stuck on the side of them which people see (not to mention other visual differences)
3) they do list in detail what you get on the window sticker which are easily comparible
4) alot more people know about cars than computers/OS's I would guess since they have been around longer (and I bet you are alot more likely to find grand ma jane doe bringing along john doe to help her out when she buys a new car then people who bring along a computer/OS guru with them - the average user has too much confidence in the best buy (or whatever store) sales person
5) there is no 5 year/100K mile bumper to bumper warranty plus car insurance to protect your computer (and cars do not get virus's or crash constantly if there is an OS driver issue)
6) people generally keep cars alot longer than computers - I said GENERALLY
7) people dont restore retro 286's and sell them for 4 times their value =P (or build a killer Vista Ultimate machine internally and run it with a 16-bit color monitor)
8) people change oil regular on cars for the most part and some people do even more regular maintenance - do you think these same people redo their computer's as often with fresh installs?
9) if the alternator on a car goes out it does not generally fry the rest of the car at as high a percentage as I would think a power supply can fry other components when it goes out (of course I openly admit I'm being extremely picky with this one)

...ok I could go on and on but anyways...For something else you might be able to understand. Let's put the car analogy in an actual comparable light. Say ABC Honda dealer displays the top of the line tricked out Honda Civic with everything completely upgraded (and it ONLY says Honda Civic - nothing else). You know the car you see when you walk in the showroom there for everyone to see? Then you speak with the sales person and they tell you we can sell you the "Honda Civic" for 45K, or 35K, or 25K, or even a special deal of 18K. Which would you like? Well what do you think everyone is going to pick? And sure most likely everyone would ask - is that the price of a "Honda Civic" really? And the sales person said yes it is. Well technically they are all "Honda Civics" no matter what designation - DX, LX, EX, Si, Hybrid, etc. (but for our purposes this dealership is not using these labels) Ok, now I hope I did not lose you yet - but let's go on to the next step - when all the people that spent 18K received their Honda Civics and they did not have tinted windows or a bose stereo systems with DVD player or the biggest aluminum rims available (but yet had tiny 14-inch rims) and anything else you can think of that the showroom floor model could have the 18K Honda Civic's did not have. Do you think these people would ask why their Honda Civic's are not like the one shown? And why they are both called Honda Civic's? And what do you think these people would say or do when the sales person said that is a Honda Civic you purchased and is technically right. Well I do not think the buyers would be all that happy. And do you think ABC Honda would be allowed to continue this business model? I doubt it though who knows. I am sure there would be alot of bad press just as Microsoft is receiving. And NO I AM NOT saying Microsoft has not designated different levels of Vista but their "Vista Ready" logo's hardly specified if a system was as "ready" as a DX, LX, EX, Si, or Hybrid etc. (by the way, another point to make clear for this scenario the asumption is that the buyers only saw their 18K Honda Civic after they bought them - before purchase they only saw the showroom model) Hope this was not too technical.

 

[Guest]

Guys, dont blame users, not every one is a techie. First thing you forgot is that most of confused users bought the pc with Vista capable sticker BEFORE vista was out, not even store employees did know anythink about specs nor real differences of Vista versions. Some was expected, but nothing was clear stated at that time, not even that "some" Vista basic will NOT have the new 3d GUI. So I think this time the users who were confused by this sticker are right. I remember one more moment which pissed me off at the time of transition (remember, buy your PC now with XP and get "free" upgrade to Vista when its out) problem was that the so called "free upgrade" wasnt really that free and in some countries you had to spend even half of the price of OEM Vista basic. No one mentioned when you bought PC with XP pro that you may upgrade to Vista Business only and Vista ultimate would cost a lot more. I think that Microsoft did this intentionally to mislead the users. Anyway, I still think that the biggest disaster of Vista was the introduction of 32bit version. Any PC capable of reasonable running of Vista was 64bit compatible anyway, so that was a good time for transition to 64bit. You needed new drivers for Vista so it should be 64bit only. True is that 64bit Vista is better running and is way stable than 32bit. So if MS would pass on 32bit then Vista would be a huge success in my eyes, and all the problems with new system would be overseen like with Mac OSX, heck it would be the evolution so what?! Enough said.

 

[Guest]

Windows Vista 7

 

[jabliese]

In an attempt to get everyone on the same page here:

1) In the days before Vista was released, there was one sticker, "Vista Capable." This same sticker was applied to $500 PC's and $2000 dollar PC's. In addition, the only thing people had to run reviews with was Beta software. One of you "buyer beware" guys go find something dated prior to the release of Vista that explained the difference in experience on underpowered machine as anything but slower.

2) Intel likes to sell hardware. Intel asked Microsoft to stretch it's definition of Vista Capable.

3) This is the legally actionable part. Microsoft did indeed stretch the definition of Vista Capable at Intel's request, even though it knew the experience on the lower end was going to be drastically different than the experience on the higher end. Internal documents revealed there was much discussion on this. By placing the same sticker on $500 PC's as it did on $2000 dollar PC's, Microsoft was engaging in false advertising.

Now, to the point of confusion, of course this ruling looks ridiculous on the face of it, but what it is actually saying is the user experience on a $500 Vista Capable machine is not equal to the user experience on a $2000 Vista Capable machine, allowing the false advertising aspects of the lawsuit to carry forward.

All of which could have been avoided with a Vista Basic Capable sticker, and a Vista Capable sticker. But then, Intel would have been unhappy.

 

[VorlonKosh]

[citation][nom]MDillenbeck[/nom]Just to represent the other side...I think when the average customer hears "Vista Capable" they assume that it is capable of running Windows Vista. What do they know of Vista Home Basic, Vista Home Premium, Vista Business, and Vista Ultimate - the machine says Vista and nothing more.Now, had they been branded "Vista Home Basic Capable", then customers would have had a clear picture that their was only one product with Vista in the title that would run on the machine.THAT is why customers are feeling deceived.I mean, if you bought a vehicle labeled "off road capable" and learned it could only drive off road on dry dirt paths with no greater than a 15 degree incline, you'd be pretty pissed off when you try to slug through some mud.Finally, when calling all these people idiots, remember the Dilbert Principle - once we realize that we all have times when we are incredibly brain dead and stupid, then maybe we can learn to sympathize with others rather than condemn them.[/citation]


A more accurate analogy would be:
Vista Home Basic Capable = minimal/barely off road capable
Vista Home Premium = fun off roading capable
Vista Business = Professional off roading capable
Vista Ultimate = kick as* off roading capable
Most people should understand that if there are four versions of an operating system, obviously they are NOT the same. If you don't know the difference, one should do some research - NOT think "oh, well, I'll just buy the cheapest computer/OS combo and when I can't run everything under the sun with it, I'll just file a class-action lawsuit..." The way this country is going, you should be able to counter sue someone for stupidity...

 

[thegh0st]

If you think lawsuits are out of hand now - just imagine how it would be if you could sue people for being stupid. Courts would be backed up for years! =P Probably one of the reasons there is no law against being stupid. Not to mention how many people I would have to sue just after a drive to work or home.