News Microsoft Copilot+ PCs available now — here are all the Snapdragon Elite X laptops you can buy today

Jun 18, 2024
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You may want to add that Costco is selling a version of the Asus (S5507) laptop with 32gb or ram for $1299.

I pre-ordered mine about a week ago...

Walkamo
 

suryasans

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The most sensible thing for the owner of Snapdragon X powered Copilot+ laptop is to enable dual boot option with Android or ChromeOS. Almost all Android/ChromeOS apps and games are optimized for ARM architecture out of the box.
 
They’re touted to have better performance and efficiency than x86 chips and will finally give Microsoft the horsepower it needs to compete against Apple M-Silicon laptops.

The often on sale for $1200 M3 Macbook Air with 16GB RAM and also often on sale for $950 M3 Macbook Air with 8GB RAM is the benchmark. Unless these Snapdragon based PCs for $1000+ beat the pants off of the Macbook Air in terms of battery life, performance, and screen quality, they better not get anything higher than a 2 star rating from any outlet.
 

abufrejoval

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Well, I guess the Samsung shows how everyone wants to copy the fruity cult here: so far they are the only one to offer the top chip, but it's 16GB RAM, only and SSD costs a ridiculous $600/TB...

It's easy to see where a 64GB/4TB variant would go in terms of pricing: let them drown in their greed!
 
Hmmm, well I just picked up a new M3 MBA 16/512 the other day....might spec out the Dell for kicks. I have no interest whatsoever in Copilot or many of the other AI PC features. I AM interested in Windows on ARM however.

(Edit: Have looked)

The Inspiron 14 Plus with *checks notes* Snapdragon X Plus some numbers here 10 core with 16/512 and a 14" QHD 16:10 display looks decentish at 1499CAD. Unsure how potent that Adreno GPU is though, the M3 GPU can handle some gaming at medium/low settings...not that we game on these things..

*proceeds to game on these things*
 
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bit_user

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Of these, I would have to get the Lenovo, since that's the only one with physical trackpad buttons!

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https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/lapt...d-t14s-gen-6-(14-inch-snapdragon)/len101t0099
 

abufrejoval

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Of these, I would have to get the Lenovo, since that's the only one with physical trackpad buttons!
IMHO the buttons only made sense with the trackpoint and to be honest, that was more of a nuisance than a feature on the Thinkpads and Sony Vaios that I owned. Ever since scrolling became the most important user interaction, things changed dramatically.

And things aren't looking good there, mostly because gestures are entirely inconsistent across the input devices.

My main PCs are big workstations with huge displays. Those quite simply come as mouse & keyboard-only devices, and there I mostly need a good scrolling wheel and the back button for the thumb: the full-screen toggle is rarely used, because there is enough screen real-estate available. And there is much less need to toggle/flip between apps, as I keep things on different halves, quadrants or just the second 43" screen I typically have on standby on my desk and just move my focus and mouse to a different area.

Apart from travel use, my laptops are mostly surfing and some writing, but because the screen is so small that implies multiplexing, more scrolling, the urge to toggle to full screen on the active browswer window and generally to flip (not move) between apps or just groups of browser windows.

And actually I spend most of my laptop time while having a meal, which is why it was originally Android tablets: I don't like food inside my keyboads and glass touchscreens clean very nicely with the same wipes that I also use for my glasses.

When I broke my shiny Galaxy Tab on some icy stairs, I decided to go with a convertible laptop instead, because on the road the tablet was an extra device and tablets stopped being cheap long ago. Which is why today for me a laptop needs to be convertible, even if it were to be a beefy desktop replacement. And that has four major input devices with keyboard, mouse, touchpad and touch screen.

And that brings me to gestures, the real crux on Windows (but also on Linux).

I still have mice and keyboards on every computer and I am generally rarely in a situation (cramped on-knees-only) where I can't use a mouse: for precision pointing, it's hard to beat, but that is becomes less of a necessity. So touchpads and touch screens are nearly always extra options, which I use when they are superior to mice and keys. And that's clearly the case in the case of scrolling through web pages or longer texts: nothing beats a touch screen in terms of precision and smooth scrolling (which is much less of an issue on my huge desktops screens, which typically operate in a dual column upright/tall mode).

And it has the added advantage of letting me do the scrolling with one of the fingers not in the food arena, which would be much harder if not impossible on the mouse. While the touchpad is folded away with the keyboard during food ops, it will usually come back out, once I transition into coffee or beverages-only mode, without necessarily leaving the table.

With touch screen, touch pad and mouse available for scrolling, I find myself using the touchpad a little more, especially when it's mixed with text entry, just because it avoid taking my hands far from the keyboard: I can go back to the home keys and start typing without ever taking my eyes of the screen. And the touchpad is almost as precise for scrolling than the touch screen, typically better than the mouse wheel, where I have to basically run a "roll-to-scroll" adjustment cycle on every input device switch. That may partially be necessary because a non-clicky wheel on my mice never works: they either start scrolling things unintentionally when I start touching the wheel again or continue, once I let go. And that implies a scroll jump.

But now really back to gestures: the main issue is that scrolling, going back on a browser, full-screen toggle and windows swaps are very hard to get personalized and consistent on touch-screens and touch-pads or even across mice.

Windows simply doesn't permit adjusting touch screen gestures, while it's every vendor to himself on touch pads and mice. I make do with a 3rd party gesture control app, but some of the worst are really the various application generations Logitech employs for their various types of mice, where I have corded variants on the desktop and distinct cordless variants and generations for laptops or notebooks: Downloads of several hundred megabytes for a mouse driver hint quite heavily towards putting "know your customer" over "serve your customer".

On Linux gesture customization just tends to be years behind or non-existing.

But coming back to your comment: physical buttons on a touchpad make no sense whatsoever to me any more. The only sensible way forward that I see is to treat the touchpad as much like a touch screen as possible and ensure that gestures between the two are synchronized. Nothing good can come from someone trying to click on a touch screen!
 

bit_user

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Well, at least it's good that your humble about it!
; )


But coming back to your comment: physical buttons on a touchpad make no sense whatsoever to me any more. The only sensible way forward that I see is to treat the touchpad as much like a touch screen as possible and ensure that gestures between the two are synchronized.
I put up with touchscreen interfaces on my phone, but I don't love it. Multi-touch is nice, but everything else is worse. So, I take issue with the idea that we should treat touchscreen as the baseline and make everything else try to match it. When given a choice, I will always opt for mouse* + keyboard.

Also, I hate gestures. The one Windows gesture I've encountered is the one which clears all of your windows and I've accidentally triggered it dozens of times. Each and every time I curse Microsoft.

* BTW, just like the correct number of foot pedals in a car is 3, that's also the correct number of buttons on a mouse.
; )
 

abufrejoval

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* BTW, just like the correct number of foot pedals in a car is 3, that's also the correct number of buttons on a mouse.
; )
I agree, gas, brake and handbrake (on older Mercedes) ;-)

As a European I drove stick most of my life. But ever since engines got to be so damm quiet you can't hear them rev, I'm missing a key input for proper shifting: I've even came across Diesel V6 that made it an effort because they were too smooth.

With modern double clutch transmissions, 10 gear automatics or just an electric motor, the only thing that beats an automatic transmission is a chauffeur ... and home office.
 

bit_user

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As a European I drove stick most of my life. But ever since engines got to be so damm quiet you can't hear them rev, I'm missing a key input for proper shifting: I've even came across Diesel V6 that made it an effort because they were too smooth.
I sometimes glance at the tachometer, before shifting, but I can totally rev-match my double-clutch downshifts without taking my eyes off the road. A lot of times, I'll even skip gears, going from 5th or 6th to 3rd. It's become so automatic, by this point, I'm not even aware I'm doing it. I'm not quite as good at heel-toe downshifts, since only one of my cars has the pedals setup for it.

With modern double clutch transmissions, 10 gear automatics
DCTs are nice, but still can't match all the fun you can have with stick shift. If you want an engaging driving experience, nothing beats stick.
 
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JTWrenn

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I really fee like everyone I have talked to cares far less about AI performance than the online folks reviewing these things. Talk about emulation and battery life and what the performance feels like. People care way more about that in the real world from what I have seen.
 

AtrociKitty

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Talk about emulation and battery life and what the performance feels like.
Emulation and battery life are the only metrics I'm interested in, with emulation being the most critical unknown by a significant margin.

Does the translation layer actually work seamlessly for the occasional legacy software I need to run? And is real-world battery life significantly better than any of AMD's or Intel's offerings? I'm considering a Snapdragon laptop if these two items meet expectations, while AI performance doesn't even factor into my decision.

Rather than benchmarking games that barely chug along at 30fps, I'd really love to hear how regular x86 software runs in terms of performance, feel, and any crashes.
 

abufrejoval

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Emulation and battery life are the only metrics I'm interested in, with emulation being the most critical unknown by a significant margin.

Does the translation layer actually work seamlessly for the occasional legacy software I need to run? And is real-world battery life significantly better than any of AMD's or Intel's offerings? I'm considering a Snapdragon laptop if these two items meet expectations, while AI performance doesn't even factor into my decision.

Rather than benchmarking games that barely chug along at 30fps, I'd really love to hear how regular x86 software runs in terms of performance, feel, and any crashes.
Emulation should only ever be a transition tool, not a permanent base to build on. And emulation will always require an overhead, that you'd rather gain back in extra battery life than just iso performance.

In short: do not expect battery savings or better performance for emulated software. There is a good chance the extra horse power a new ARM laptop will deliver over a system you want to replace will just be lost in the emulation overhead, while most of those 12 cores will just twiddle thumbs.

Crashes/stability: there is no telling without testing the applications you run. There is such a vast range of APIs, libraries and application development environments in Windows, any easy answer is bound to be wrong. .NET seems to be cross platform but not cross ISA (as Java/Kotlin etc. would be), but a re-compile for ARM64 'should' be trivial. Same with Qt based stuff, but there have been hidden proprietary APIs and all manner of other hard dependencies on x86 specifities in the past. And then there is hard dependencies on ISA extensions, specific GPU libraries and whatnot and simply dependencies on device drivers or peripherals that don't support ARM64 currently (card readers for banking, health or government apps coming to mind).

The first attempts of x86 emulation on ARM were limited to 32-bit x86 software, but these days the other way around might actually be difficult if not impossible: even running 32-bit x86 on AMD64 is becoming harder, so I wouldn't expect things getting easier when you're on ARM64.

Emulation or binary translation has been around for a long time. And it's never been as magically easy as advertised. Nor good enough to make recompilation completely unnessary. And those were the good old single threaded days without a myriad of ISA extensions or accelerators to get reasonable performance. Today speed implies multi-core, ISA extensions and going very close to the metal on xPUs. Emulation adds layers and constrains to common denominators.

While the ISA issue is complex enough, it's only part of the PC compatibility story.

And there lies the next sleeping dragon, because evidently M$ is trying to drive people towards their shop to buy software and pay sales tax to them, if only to ensure they'll always get the best ISA match for apps: they create a management point where there wasn't even a need before (well apart from 32/64-bit days).

There have been multi-architecture binaries elsewhere, or a Java bytecode base (thinking Android) and while software management on Linux distros is far from perfect, switching between ISAs is as transparent as it gets.

Adding a binary for ARM64 and indeed RISC-V shouldn't be an issue for software vendors, especially since Windows NT got born and weaned on multi-ISA at the very beginning.

And while these first portable machines aren't made for gaming, ARM on Windows has very little chance as a viable eco system unless there is a commitment by M$, Qualcomm and any other ARM vendor that there will be gaming rigs on ARM, too, from Steam decks to fat GPUs like the RTX 4090.

M$ tends to forget that they need to increase consumer value and choice to win customers over: they are much too focused on locking them into their big AI exploitation machine.

Quite honestly these Snapdragons would stand a much better chance on Linux, where transitioning from x86-64 to ARM64 is pretty near unnoticeable and wouldn't require emulation, just pulling from the proper repo.
 
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