Microsoft Unveils The Surface Pro 4

[littleleo]

And they still don't include the keyboard? Y U Do dis, Microsoft?

To give you more options, and to make them a lot more money.

 

[TronX33]

To give you more options, and to make them a lot more money.

Lot more money, yes, but what options? If you want to use the surface as a productivity device, you basically need the keyboard. If you just want a tab;et, there are many cheaper offerings from other companies. I just think if Microsoft increased the price f the surface by, say $70-80 dollars, but included the keyboard, they would have a lot more sales.

 

[littleleo]

To give you more options, and to make them a lot more money.

Lot more money, yes, but what options? If you want to use the surface as a productivity device, you basically need the keyboard. If you just want a tab;et, there are many cheaper offerings from other companies. I just think if Microsoft increased the price f the surface by, say $70-80 dollars, but included the keyboard, they would have a lot more sales.

Don't they have different colors and materials and price ranges? Personally SP are not my cup of tea.

 

[DasBoot]

You can thank Apple for starting the trend of overcharging for upgrades.
Why not when the folks dish out for them?

The difference is the Apple product is more idiot proof, and MS is run by idiots wanting to be Apple.

Other companies are doing this also in the phone business.
Just look at the difference in price on the Samsung S6 models.
So it seems the idiocy has spread.

 

[littleleo]

You can thank Apple for starting the trend of overcharging for upgrades.
Why not when the folks dish out for them?

The difference is the Apple product is more idiot proof, and MS is run by idiots wanting to be Apple.

Other companies are doing this also in the phone business.
Just look at the difference in price on the Samsung S6 models.
So it seems the idiocy has spread.

And running for President.

 

[jazzy2945]

Surface Pro 4 are the same prices of Surface Pro 3 that is replacing. We can all build a PC, but none of us can build a portable PC that weight less than 2 pounds.

I don't like the high prices of Surface line any more than the rest of the people, but high quality, high performance has never been cheap. Apple's computer are expensive because they are high quality and now Microsoft that is building hardware. For price conscious they are the OEM like Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer, Asus, Toshiba, etc. You pick what your wallet allows you to purchase.

 

[jazzy2945]

These guys need to have a serious talk with whomever is selling them 8GB of RAM for $300. Also — i5 to i7 is an extra $300? 256GB SSD to 512 GB upgrade is $400? Hmm.

This is why I always build my own PC, but when it comes to portable devices like this they've got us over a barrel. Any idea what components can be upgraded by the home user, or is it factory sealed as-is?

My surface pro3 is sealed and seems non-upgradeable... so chances are the surface4 is the same -- or they would add that to the marketing details.

Id like to be able to upgrade as well, but the manufacturer makes a lot more $$$ when they can get you to buy a full system, thus they build in this planned obsolescence.

WTB surface pro4 with 16G ram, i5 cpu and 512gb SSD
(the i5 is to keep heat down)

I also liked to upgrade my computer, but lately reality set in. I notice the upgrading route is becoming more costly and less performance gain on investment. You want that new Intel CPU? You might need to replace the motherboard and maybe the memory. You want the new SSD drive? Replace the motherboard or get one of those PCI-E card to adapt the SSD drive which will never give you the same performance as a direct connect to the motherboard.

Also the performance of the new computers are more than good. Only gamers and graphic designers that need the latest needs to upgrade. That is why PC sales are down. The current PC is more than good enough, not planned obsolescence.

I have a Surface Pro 3 and the new Surface Pro 4 is not enough incentive to replace my SP3.

 

[jazzy2945]

These guys need to have a serious talk with whomever is selling them 8GB of RAM for $300. Also — i5 to i7 is an extra $300? 256GB SSD to 512 GB upgrade is $400? Hmm.

This is why I always build my own PC, but when it comes to portable devices like this they've got us over a barrel. Any idea what components can be upgraded by the home user, or is it factory sealed as-is?

These companies make the real money off the upgrades, we know it's about $100 to go from 256 to 512 ssd and $40 to go from 4 to 8gb of ram.

Not all memory are created equal, you should know that. Not only there is difference in speed, but also in design and quality. A desktop tower has all that extra space, while a laptop does not and a tablet even less if you can open them to replace the memory. Add to the heat issue on a small space and that memory has to be cool down and have more heat resistance on the design. That cost money and I know because I have been building and upgrading computers since 1995.

 

[jazzy2945]

Not everyone will be able to afford those tablets, even if they look really nice and hitech, and that's a big problem.

This is because Microsoft want their partners to be successful not compete against them. Each OEM, Acer, Asus, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Toshiba can build a laptop/tablet that meet your budget. There are excellent choices, but the best will cost you more.

 

[jazzy2945]

I would pick one of these up if the upgraded parts weren't so overpriced. If the upgrade costs were in line with the cost of the actual parts I could probably afford this, but $1800 for a laptop isn't happening.

What upgradable part? Tablets are seal, nothing to upgrade here. Laptop? When have you upgraded a laptop? Laptop can only upgrade the hard drive and maybe the memory.

 

[atheus]

I would pick one of these up if the upgraded parts weren't so overpriced. If the upgrade costs were in line with the cost of the actual parts I could probably afford this, but $1800 for a laptop isn't happening.

What upgradable part? Tablets are seal, nothing to upgrade here. Laptop? When have you upgraded a laptop? Laptop can only upgrade the hard drive and maybe the memory.

I said upgraded. As in an i5 or i7 version, or with the larger SSD/memory. Each upgrade to the base model costs about 3x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts are.

 

[InvalidError]

I said upgraded. As in an i5 or i7 version, or with the larger SSD/memory. Each upgrade to the base model costs about 3x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts are.

Just like tablets and smartphones charge $50 or more to go from 16GB to 32GB of storage or 2GB to 4GB RAM when either upgrade costs only $10 or so extra in parts when such upgraded models are available.

Selling hardware on an all-or-nothing basis due to the sealed or integrated nature of their design does wonders for up-selling.

 

[atheus]

I said upgraded. As in an i5 or i7 version, or with the larger SSD/memory. Each upgrade to the base model costs about 3x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts are.

Just like tablets and smartphones charge $50 or more to go from 16GB to 32GB of storage or 2GB to 4GB RAM when either upgrade costs only $10 or so extra in parts when such upgraded models are available.

Selling hardware on an all-or-nothing basis due to the sealed or integrated nature of their design does wonders for up-selling.

I understand the idea. I just don't like it.

 

[jazzy2945]

I would pick one of these up if the upgraded parts weren't so overpriced. If the upgrade costs were in line with the cost of the actual parts I could probably afford this, but $1800 for a laptop isn't happening.

What upgradable part? Tablets are seal, nothing to upgrade here. Laptop? When have you upgraded a laptop? Laptop can only upgrade the hard drive and maybe the memory.

I said upgraded. As in an i5 or i7 version, or with the larger SSD/memory. Each upgrade to the base model costs about 3x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts are.

As far as I know you cannot upgrade the chip inside any tablet or laptop, they are soldier. The memory for a laptop is more expensive than a desktop memory. Only SSD can be upgrade on a laptop but never a tablet.

 

[InvalidError]

The memory for a laptop is more expensive than a desktop memory.

DDR3L SODIMMs are roughly the same price as desktop DDR3 DIMMs, in large parts thanks to NUC, ITX, AIO and other desktop and compact form factors that also use SODIMMs.

 

[atheus]

I would pick one of these up if the upgraded parts weren't so overpriced. If the upgrade costs were in line with the cost of the actual parts I could probably afford this, but $1800 for a laptop isn't happening.

What upgradable part? Tablets are seal, nothing to upgrade here. Laptop? When have you upgraded a laptop? Laptop can only upgrade the hard drive and maybe the memory.

I said upgraded. As in an i5 or i7 version, or with the larger SSD/memory. Each upgrade to the base model costs about 3x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts are.

As far as I know you cannot upgrade the chip inside any tablet or laptop, they are soldier. The memory for a laptop is more expensive than a desktop memory. Only SSD can be upgrade on a laptop but never a tablet.

...what InvalidError said, but aside from that you're not understanding me. I'm not talking about upgrading anything after the purchase. I'm talking about the cost of the base m3 model vs. the higher end models as "upgrades". The higher end models all cost 3-5x what the actual difference in the cost of the parts. e.g. the i7 model is $300 more expensive than the i5 model. The 16GB model is $300 more expensive than the 8GB model. There is no such thing as a $300 8GB memory module today.

People like myself who have sensibilities about what parts should cost will cringe at this kind of pricing scheme. I'm sure there are plenty who will go for it, but for me, if I'm going to spend $2200 on a laptop, it had better be able to summon UFO's. i7 with iris pro graphics, 512 GB SSD and 16GB memory in a tablet is definitely fantastic, but it's just not worth $2200, imho. A desktop with those specs would be $1000 or less (and come with a real quad core i7).

 

[littleleo]

At we are on the same page as to MS version of the Macbook. It has some nice features but I feel it falls short of justifying its premium price tag. I would never pay that much for that. However there are some that like the unit and are willing to pay what MS wants for it. I think that is great they should buy one and let us know down the road if it is everything they expected. If it is they should buy one for each member in their family for Xmas and spread the love.

 

[jazzy2945]

The memory for a laptop is more expensive than a desktop memory.

DDR3L SODIMMs are roughly the same price as desktop DDR3 DIMMs, in large parts thanks to NUC, ITX, AIO and other desktop and compact form factors that also use SODIMMs.

Not all memory are the same. Saying roughly the same price as desktop is like saying VW and a Porsche are roughly the same. They are both cars, made by the same company, but after that it is totally different. One you can but in the $20K and the other in the $70K to over $150K. There are many factors that goes into the high cost of memory. Go to any memory retailer and you will see a wide range in price for the same type of memory.

Same that, we don't know what kind of memory the Surface Book use. Microsoft specs does not mention this. It could be the $79 special or the $200 one. Also as I found out thru my experience, cheap memory bring a lot of computer crashes, while good memory (expensive) does not suffer from those issues.

Look at it this way, Windows 10 came out and many people did not have an issue with it while others had nightmare. If the software (OS) is the same for all, then why it works from others and some only have problems? In this case is the cheap hardware the culprit, and memory is one of them. Very hard to diagnose. In a 16 or 32 GB many PC never full utilize all the memory capacity so they never see an issue until they fully stress the memory full capacity.

Microsoft is putting their reputation not only on Windows 10 but on the hardware and it needs to be an excellent product. Meaning no cheap parts and just like Apple there is a premium price for a premium device. But in the end you cannot talk how expensive the memory is on the Surface Book if you don't know which kind is being use.

 

[InvalidError]

Same that, we don't know what kind of memory the Surface Book use. Microsoft specs does not mention this. It could be the $79 special or the $200 one. Also as I found out thru my experience, cheap memory bring a lot of computer crashes, while good memory (expensive) does not suffer from those issues.

It uses Skylake-generation chips and you can bet your shorts Microsoft is not going to be overclocking anything, which means they likely used bog-standard 1600MT/s DDR3 or 1866MT/s DDR4, possibly soldered directly on the motherboard to cut the DRAM PCB and connector costs, space and weight. Either way, nothing special.

As for your experience with cheap memory, practically all memory regardless of price uses DRAM dies from Samsung, Hynix, Micron, etc. and the same PCBs as most other models from the same DIMM manufacturer also regardless of price. The occasional DOA chip/DIMM aside, there is next to no quality difference between a bargain-basement DIMM from a decent brand and the top-priced equivalent, except maybe an extra PCB layer or two and finer chip binning to help with extreme memory OCs but those would be pointless in a non-overclockable system and do not add much actual cost.

 

[jazzy2945]

Same that, we don't know what kind of memory the Surface Book use. Microsoft specs does not mention this. It could be the $79 special or the $200 one. Also as I found out thru my experience, cheap memory bring a lot of computer crashes, while good memory (expensive) does not suffer from those issues.

It uses Skylake-generation chips and you can bet your shorts Microsoft is not going to be overclocking anything, which means they likely used bog-standard 1600MT/s DDR3 or 1866MT/s DDR4, possibly soldered directly on the motherboard to cut the DRAM PCB and connector costs, space and weight. Either way, nothing special.

As for your experience with cheap memory, practically all memory regardless of price uses DRAM dies from Samsung, Hynix, Micron, etc. and the same PCBs as most other models from the same DIMM manufacturer also regardless of price. The occasional DOA chip/DIMM aside, there is next to no quality difference between a bargain-basement DIMM from a decent brand and the top-priced equivalent, except maybe an extra PCB layer or two and finer chip binning to help with extreme memory OCs but those would be pointless in a non-overclockable system and do not add much actual cost.

First Skylake is the latest Intel chip, not memory. Second , answer this question, why these manufacturers Samsung, Hynix , Micron, etc. have different price point for the same memory? Go to any of their website, ask for a specific memory and you get a hit of 6 to 10 memory module at different price point and all been the same memory. For example, check this Crucial web site for a 16GB DDR4, 2133 UDIMM memory.

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/memory/ddr4--ddr3--ddr2--ddr--sdram--crucial

You will notice for this module there are from $99 to $279 for what you call a basic identical memory. The difference is what inside that makes them better performance, faster (latency) heat resistance, etc. The even asking you what temperature range you need. Obviously a tablet, laptop need a chip memory that can withstand heat better than a desktop because there is not many options to cool the memory and not much space.

But if you think that all memory are created equals then, you win. No point in arguing with you.

 

[InvalidError]

First Skylake is the latest Intel chip, not memory.

Yes, Skylake is a CPU. The fact that the CPU dictates that types of memory are officially supported apparently flew ten miles over your head.

Go to any of their website, ask for a specific memory and you get a hit of 6 to 10 memory module at different price point and all been the same memory. For example, check this Crucial web site for a 16GB DDR4, 2133 UDIMM memory.

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/memory/ddr4--ddr3--ddr2--ddr--sdram--crucial

You will notice for this module there are from $99 to $279 for what you call a basic identical memory. The difference is what inside that makes them better performance, faster (latency) heat resistance, etc.

Those two DIMMs (at least the two I could find that seemed to match your claim) are not the same: the $100 one is non-registered non-ECC while the $280 one is registered ECC, which means extra DRAM chips for ECC bits, extra chip on the PCB to buffer signals and extra layers to route all those buffered signals around the PCB.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "superior" DRAM chip quality, it is just the server market not being as cost-sensitive about "high-end" registered ECC memory prices - registered DDR4 is still only a niche market. If you drop down to DDR3-1866, the price premium for registered ECC over plain DIMMs drops from $180 to $40, which is only a slight margin on top of the added parts and manufacturing costs.